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Do we deny the cross of Christ with clean and unclean meats?

Loveaboveall

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Maco,

You make an interesting argument... What was, in your opinion, the reason God set aside all of the COI with what you view as a symbol of cleanliness and not for health reasons?

I don't follow you with your analogy with circumcision and "outward wall of separation". Baptism today is what circumcision was then. They are both outward displays that we are indeed children of God. If circumcision was an outward wall of separation that separated Israel from the heathen, then baptism is the same separating christians from the non-christian. I believe Paul was disagreeing with the view that one must be circumcised as a salvational issue. You could not be saved by getting circumcised, and the gentiles were not lost if they were not circumcised.
 
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icedtea

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This is an interesting topic to me.
When little, my parents church said we couldn't eat meat on Fridays. My parents said I could, and I understood there are some rules one need not obey.
Looking before corssing the street wasn't one of them, as there was a good reason for it.
Is there not a verse which says It is not what goes into a man which makes him unclean, but the words which come out of his mouth? In saying this, Jesus made all foods clean (kosher).
I have trouble with rules and regulations which aren't freedom in Christ.
 
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djconklin

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When little, my parents church said we couldn't eat meat on Fridays.

Your parents were right because there is no rule in the Bible about when one could not eat meat. There is a "rule" about denying one's self on the Day of Atonement.

Is there not a verse which says It is not what goes into a man which makes him unclean, but the words which come out of his mouth? In saying this, Jesus made all foods clean (kosher).

The answer to the question is sort of yes:

Matthew 15:11​
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.​

In context it is talking about eating without having ceremonially washing one's hands:

Matthew 15:20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

So we can see that to say this means: "In saying this, Jesus made all foods clean (kosher)" is unwarranted.
 
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maco

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Maco,

You make an interesting argument... What was, in your opinion, the reason God set aside all of the COI with what you view as a symbol of cleanliness and not for health reasons?

I don't follow you with your analogy with circumcision and "outward wall of separation". Baptism today is what circumcision was then. They are both outward displays that we are indeed children of God. If circumcision was an outward wall of separation that separated Israel from the heathen, then baptism is the same separating christians from the non-christian. I believe Paul was disagreeing with the view that one must be circumcised as a salvational issue. You could not be saved by getting circumcised, and the gentiles were not lost if they were not circumcised.

Hi Loveaboveall,

I'm not sure what you mean by, COI.

Separation or the setting apart was done by God to a group of people He chose to reveal Himself through to the world.

All these outward things marked these people as God's chosen people. If you didn't display these things you were not considered true Israel or God's chosen people.

Circumcision is a separation because they believe if you didn't have it you were not part of God's people.

Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.''

Paul even had Timothy circumcised because of the Jews.

Acts 16:3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.

Circumcision was a mark of separation or setting apart as was all the setting apart laws of God which He gave to Israel in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Notice how Paul put the law of circumcision in the same category as the whole setting apart law.

Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Why would anyone desire to be circumcised?

Because they felt outside of God's people without it. But Paul tells us that if we desire to be part of God's people through circumcision then we also need to follow all the other rules pertaining to the separation laws which marked God's people as God's people. If circumcision is the mark of a true child of God than we need to be a debtor to the whole law which is also a mark of God's people. But what Paul is trying to communicate is that we no long need these outward things to mark us as God's people. To the New Testament child of God cirumcision is of the heart.

Roams 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

All these separation laws divided Jews and Gentiles. It was a wall of separation between these two groups of people. The cross of Christ breaks down this wall of separation. But what does the cross of Christ represent? It represents His death.

Ephesians 2:11-16 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel (all that identified Israel as Israel) and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off (the Gentiles) have been made near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of division between us, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances (circumcisim, clean and unclean animals, mixing seeds, mixing thread, livestock which were all used to identify Israel as God's chosen people), so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, Thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Christ's was not only the fulfillment of the shadows of the OT but His death also abolished the separation laws.

Romans 14:13-15 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

Now as far as baptism goes. Baptism identifies you with the death of the old man in you. The thing that separates you now from all the whole world, including Jew and Gentile, is a changed life.

Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Remember, according to Paul, being circumcised means you are a debtor to the whole law. But the cross of Christ has done away with the whole law. Through the cross Christ we can be a new creation and new person which is the true make of God's people in these last days.

Galatians 6:12-16 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these try to compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Baptism opens the way into this new life in Christ. All you do is die. Who can boast in death but God only who bring back to life.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Colossians 2:9-17 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Now don't mistake the above sabbaths with the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. The above sabbaths were certain days that were part of God salvation picture which was fulfilled in Christ.
 
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djconklin

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Colossians 2:9-17 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Now don't mistake the above sabbaths with the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. The above sabbaths were certain days that were part of God salvation picture which was fulfilled in Christ.

Only the spring feasts and ceremonial sabbaths were fulfilled in Christ when He came the first time. The fall one's have yet to be fulfilled.

You are the only one I have met who has understood that Col. 2:16-7 isn't talking about the seventh-day Sabbath. For more details see http://www.666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html
 
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reddogs

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The Bible never calls itself the word of God. The Bible calls itself the Scriptures which means, writings. The Bible contains the word of God but it also contains the words of unblievers, evil kings and Satan himself.

The Bible does call itself 'the Canon' either so not a valid point, but I would say God led the prophets and other writers of His Word for His purpose...
 
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BobRyan

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In Acts 10 and 11 Peter affirms the fact that to that late point in time - he is still not eating rat sandwiches.

And this is very different from the Galatians 2 case where Peter is rebuked for clinging to some Jewish traditions.

In Acts 10 -- Peter tells God that he is not going to kill rats and eat them and claims that he is doing it in service to the Word of God on that matter. Then God points him to the mandate to evangelize gentiles. In all of the retelling of that story - not once does Peter offer up a rat sandwich as though this were the real issue God was dealing with.

In Matt 15 God warns the disciples about bread and the leaven of the pharisees - but then he rebukes the disciples for not getting the point that it is the "teaching of the Pharisees" that is being identified under the symbol of yeast and of bread.

In Acts 10 the rat sandwich is being used as a symbol of gentile evangelism. Peter makes that point 3 times in the book of Acts.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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This is an interesting topic to me.
When little, my parents church said we couldn't eat meat on Fridays. My parents said I could, and I understood there are some rules one need not obey.
Looking before corssing the street wasn't one of them, as there was a good reason for it.
Is there not a verse which says It is not what goes into a man which makes him unclean, but the words which come out of his mouth? In saying this, Jesus made all foods clean (kosher).
I have trouble with rules and regulations which aren't freedom in Christ.

Before the cross - while living in perfect obedience "under the law" as Galatians 4 states - Jesus debated with the Jewish leaders about the problem of eating WHEAT (not meat) with unbaptized hands. The Jews had a tradition about "sin getting on your hands" and claimed that when you eat food (WHEAT in this case) that sin would go into your body and you would be defiled.

Jesus said that such man-made tradition was garbage and that there was nothing you could do to get 'sin on you' and then have that sin go in you because of eating with non-baptized fingers.

Today people want to make that story about eating wheat -- precross, into a story about being allowed to eat rat sandwiches etc.

I can assure you - there were no rats, cats, dogs, bats being eaten in Mark 7.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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