do u have to hold yur jaw just right to find God?

[jimtem]

Yes, you will have to decide, there's no way that you can't. I mean, you have already decided that you don't want to have an opinion about Jesus, but that itself indicates that you don't believe He is who He is said to be. So it comes back to what I said at the end of my opening post, you need to discover what reason you have to honor God. Until you do that, well, you don't even know what reason you have to honor God.

It is not true that I do not want to have an opinion about Jesus. I am not sure why you say that. I would love to have an opinion about Jesus. But it's not possible. I could say that Jesus exists, I could tell others that Jesus exists, I can pray to Jesus and tell my self that Jesus exists. I could do everything imaginable to "decide" that Jesus exists but it does not make Jesus exist for me. Do you see the problem here. It sounds like you are asking me to believe something in order to develop a belief in something.

Reason for honoring God? I am not sure what "honoring" God means. I have needs that motivate me to discover the truth about God. If God exists then then I want to know this so that I can know God. If I know God then I would honor God.

Am I missing anything you are saying?

 

[oi_antz]

It is not true that I do not want to have an opinion about Jesus. I am not sure why you say that.

It is likely that I misread your attitude, in which case you are right to correct me and I'm sorry to have presumed this.

I would love to have an opinion about Jesus. But it's not possible.

Are you certain that it is 'not possible'? I mean, this is why Jesus went peacefully, He knew that it would be possible for some of us to form the right opinion about Him.

I could say that Jesus exists, I could tell others that Jesus exists, I can pray to Jesus and tell my self that Jesus exists. I could do everything imaginable to "decide" that Jesus exists but it does not make Jesus exist for me. Do you see the problem here. It sounds like you are asking me to believe something in order to develop a belief in something.

The problem is that none of what you describe here is anything like "believing" that Jesus exists. What you are saying here is a hypocritical lie, lying to others and lying to yourself, and you are right not to do that.

Reason for honoring God? I am not sure what "honoring" God means. I have needs that motivate me to discover the truth about God. If God exists then then I want to know this so that I can know God. If I know God then I would honor God.

Am I missing anything you are saying?

I think you might be, but that's not really important to the matter. I think what is important is that you seem to be missing something God says. I would suggest you to read the entire new testament, or at the very least one of the entire gospels to get an idea of what Christianity is, because you're not looking here to just join a social club.

I've found that The Living Translation is the most comfortable to read. It's paraphrased so it's familiar language, but it's surprisingly accurate for a paraphrased Bible. I'd suggest you read at least Matthew and Acts, that will give you a feel for how the church of Christ came about on earth, because it is clear that the kind of knowledge that you're seeking can only be obtained from God Himself and not just by picking the brains of believers.

It is important to take the right attitude toward this, as I have said, if you don't believe that the Bible is telling you the truth about God, you're simply not going to be able to hear the truth about God when you read it. This is because you've already decided to believe that it isn't true. Anyhow, it's up to you if you want to give it a go, but you really can't expect to grow a better understanding of God if you are not wanting to achieve that, and if you are wanting to find proof that you are right not to believe in God, strangely the Bible will give you the opportunity to believe that too. So it really will be a test of your sincerity toward God.

Here's what Ray said:

1. Approach the Bible with the attitude that it is God speaking to you, telling you about how to relate to Him.

This is bang on. If you think the Bible is men trying to dicate your life, you'll be resistant to it. If however you think this is the official documented truth about the God that Jesus and Christians know, then at the very least you will learn something you didn't know, and could even come away with a new set of questions to fuel your fire.

 

[LWB]

I think a real understanding would be knowledge of the information, (cognitive understanding), feeling for what the information means, (emotional understanding), and a deep sense that the information is more meaningful, and more magnificent than a human could understand, (spiritual understanding).

All I have is the cognitive part.

Oops, I confused your nickname in my initial post, jimtem. I corrected that. I also answered questions that were aimed at you! Sorry.

All I have is the cognitive part too. I've never had a flash of revelation, just a slow accumulation of understanding. One slow step at a time. One block placed on another.

But to get started on the journey, you need to make the jump into absurdity. There can be no proof. It is something you can only experience, and I use a video to illustrate my point:

YouTube - Dr Quantum - Flatland

God is a higher dimensional being, wanting to have fellowship with us. In order to accept His invitation, we have to transcend our limited perspective, and leap boldly into the unknown. I'm sorry it is so difficult for the strictly rational to accept, but there can be no other way.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Best I suppose I can do is offer my story thus far, though I'll try to offer the shorter version for the sake of brevity.

I grew up Christian, I can't remember not believing. My family attended a non-denominational church that simply described itself as a "Bible Church". When I was four my parents gave me the talk about death and Jesus dying for my sins, heaven and hell (etc)--mostly because my maternal grandfather at the time was in the hospital from having a stroke. They led me through the "Sinner's Prayer" and I "accepted Jesus into my heart". Of course I did it because I misunderstood my parents, I thought if I did that I wouldn't die, my parents told me death still happens, so I tried to shoo Jesus out of my heart with waving hand gestures.

When I was around eight, I asked my dad how I could know for sure if I was "saved", he told me that if I had asked Jesus into my heart and meant it, then I was. So, then, what really troubled me was whether or not I meant it (I mean, I did after all try and shoo Him out). So my dad again led me through the "Sinner's Prayer" and I asked Jesus into my heart again. My dad asked me if I meant it that time, I told him I didn't know and didn't know how to know.

That same year due to some unsavory circumstances involving one of the church's elders and my mom being accused of having a same-sex relationship with the elder's wife, my family was kicked out of the church and we eventually found our way to a small Foursquare (a Pentecostal denomination) church that met at our local YMCA.

Puberty sent me through a spiritual roller coaster, urges, feelings, hormones made me really confused. How could I really call myself a Christian when I kept looking at girls and thinking the things I was thinking? I felt ashamed, and even when I embarrassingly talked to my folks about it and they told me it was completely normal I just couldn't feel like it was normal and that I must truly be a horrible person. I used to imagine that Jesus was up in heaven saying, "If you do it one more time..." So I became terrified, despite the fact that I had always been taught that one can't "lose their salvation", I was terrified nonetheless. Was I really saved to begin with? How could I know?

An evangelist came to our church, and with several other kids my age went forward to receive "Baptism with the Holy Spirit", we all fell over, some of us started making sounds. My church didn't emphasize speaking in tongues all that much, so I wasn't entirely sure what to make of it. Was it the Holy Spirit or just kids imitating what they thought was supposed to happen? I don't know. I did however feel better for a little while, I looked forward to going to church for the first time ever.

This was more-or-less the general pattern all throughout adolescence and entering into young adulthood. I went through a series of really large theological shifts over the course of a couple years as I began studying and learning more and having a number of things I took for granted challenged, forcing me to look into them and really think about them. By my early twenties I was pretty sold on Lutheranism, the process of getting there was fairly complex though. And I didn't start attending a Lutheran church until last year.

In all of that, I can say that I had what I consider to be significant experiences of what I believe to be God, one in particular was deeply life-changing for me and happened when I was 16; and is the closest I've had to what I would call a truly mystical experience. But I don't think those experiences are necessarily "normal" or have to happen.

What has perhaps been truly one of the more important things for me in wrestling with faith is to realize that doubt isn't bad. Doubt is normal, faith and doubt go hand-in-hand. That and truly trying to discover what lay at the core of my convictions. Was it the "reliability and inerrancy of the Bible"? No, I don't think the Bible is inerrant, and my faith isn't dependent on that. Was it being able to reason things out using solid logic? No, there are a lot of things I believe that simply aren't rational and may be very well absurd (a guy rising from the dead after three days? I mean c'moooon). What I found was that what was truly at the heart of my conviction was Jesus, the Jesus I encountered in the Gospels, proclaimed by the Apostles is for me the one thing that truly grounds my faith. I don't know if there is a God or not, it can't be proven; but then there's Jesus, and I am compelled by Him and if God is as Jesus says He is, and if God is like Jesus then I want to worship that God. I want to serve that God. I want to believe in that God regardless of anything I may feel and in spite of any and all doubts I have.

Jesus is, for me, entirely too compelling for me not to be a Christian. So it's not by reason or feeling that I believe (lots of the time I don't feel like believing, it's hard work and people often make fun of me for it); but I believe it's worth it, if only to cling to that hope that this Jesus really is everything He's claimed to be--I'll live for that Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jimtem]

I have the ESV, is that one good? Which part are the Gospels? I see parts such as Romans, Exodus, Revolation.

 

[jimtem]

Cryptoluthran, what happened when u were 16?

 

[oi_antz]

I have the ESV, is that one good? Which part are the Gospels? I see parts such as Romans, Exodus, Revolation.

Hi, I don't know if one is good or bad, I just know that the translators of certain versions have a different idea of what is the best way to say something and I have found the NLT very easy to read, whereas if you read the King James version, it's written in old english and the grammar is not so natural to me, it requires more work to actually understand what the words mean than what the message is. But yeah go ahead and read it. The gospels are the four books written about Jesus' life on earth. The rest of the new testament follows after the four gospels and basically describes what the disciples did after Jesus' resurrection. So pretty much the four books of the gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) all tell us the same thing about Jesus' life on earth from the point of view of four witnesses. I recommend you read at least one of those books, and read the book of Acts. I think this is the minimum amount of information you should accrue if you are to hold any opinion about Christianity and the nature of a Christian belief in God. Of course, you can't expect to absorb all the information at once, but likewise you can't expect to know what happened unless you actually make an effort to find out.

 

[jimtem]

I found that I do have the NLT. I'll read M M L J and get back to this thread when I do. Thanks.

 

[razeontherock]

I have thought about this for several years and I feel I can cut to the chase but I may be wrong. I feel I have done everything I can possibly do to bring God into my life and still cant feel that anything more that science exists. I imaging this discussion will be reduced to the notion that I am not sincere in my request for God. Can anyone tell me had you asked for God to come into your life and felt nothing but then asked a gain later and felt God, later realizing that you initial request was not sincere? Or that you initially were not ready to listen?

Just guessing here, but it may be that the missing ingredient is what you said in the post immediately prior to this, that the concept of sin hasn't meant anything to you. All through the Bible we see it means a great deal to G-d!

Are you aware that "confession of sin" means essentially to agree w/ G-d on the subject? (Specific sins, one act at a time that is.) Failure to have this in place certainly would create a total block, such as you describe ...

 

[razeontherock]

I think a real understanding would be knowledge of the information, (cognitive understanding),
All I have is the cognitive part.

Could you describe your cognitive understanding of what happened on the Cross?

 

[razeontherock]

I would love to have an opinion about Jesus. But it's not possible. I could say that Jesus exists, I could tell others that Jesus exists, I can pray to Jesus and tell my self that Jesus exists. I could do everything imaginable to "decide" that Jesus exists but it does not make Jesus exist for me.

You describe wanting to have Faith! Humble yourself before G-d, and realize this is something we can NOT muster up on our own. Instead, it is something we only get by having it given to us - directly by G-d.

As you read the Gospels, keep an eye open to see this demonstrated. Also, reading the NLT, if you encounter something you're not sure of the meaning of, looking at the passage in the ESV is a GREAT way to study! The 2 versions are about as opposite as you can get: the NLT translates concepts, while the ESV tries to translate word for word. Every version has it's strengths and weaknesses, they all help, but these 2 complement each other really well.

 

[jimtem]

Just guessing here, but it may be that the missing ingredient is what you said in the post immediately prior to this, that the concept of sin hasn't meant anything to you. All through the Bible we see it means a great deal to G-d!

Are you aware that "confession of sin" means essentially to agree w/ G-d on the subject? (Specific sins, one act at a time that is.) Failure to have this in place certainly would create a total block, such as you describe ...

I can confess my flawed actions and thoughts. I do this all of the time.

No, i was not aware that "confession of sin" means essentially to agree w/ G-d on the subject. By "agree with God" does that mean that we both agree that it is bad?

Of course the idea of sin cannot mean anything to me because sin is a concept that has meaning for believers but not for atheists. I would have to become a believer before I could see my undesirables as sin. Again this is the same issue mentioned in the other post. So, to believe in God I must see my negativities as sin but to see my negativities as sin I must believe in God.

Thanks for your help on this. I really appreciate it.

 

[razeontherock]

No, i was not aware that "confession of sin" means essentially to agree w/ G-d on the subject. By "agree with God" does that mean that we both agree that it is bad?

Good question. I'll develop that a bit, but at the very least agree with G-d that He calls it sin - for whatever reason. Even though we may not understand why, and even though it may be something we desire. THAT is the real problem! Not that we sin by accident, but that we LOVE our sins.

Of course the idea of sin cannot mean anything to me because sin is a concept that has meaning for believers but not for atheists. I would have to become a believer before I could see my undesirables as sin.

Oh I WISH it were that simple! This is getting right down to the brass tacks of the Gospel now. Being reconciled to G-d (the purpose of the Gospel) means learning to love what G-d loves, and to hate what He hates. I think the purpose of this life can be summed as this much.

Over and over we see a purging process being spoken of. Gold in the Bible primarily symbolizes G-d's ways, because once we see even one of them, it surely is precious! But also, the picture helps us to appreciate it. We are purged by fire, in this life. (Figurative language, obviously)

A BIG part of "taking up our cross" has to do with sacrificing things we actually enjoy, in deference to the fact that G-d abhors them. Sometimes He calls us to forego certain things temporarily, just to honor Him. Fasting, for example. Nothing sinful about food or drink, but fasting is a powerful practice when we are doing it while following after the Spirit. (Not saying this is appropriate for you now, just trying to communicate the point)

You do seem sincere. Please know that there are many of us here that will help you in any way that we can. I should also point out that the Prophet Daniel had perfectly good prayers, that went unanswered during a time of Spiritual battle he wasn't even aware of! The point being - hang on, and don't give up.

 

[jimtem]

You describe wanting to have Faith! Humble yourself before G-d, and realize this is something we can NOT muster up on our own. Instead, it is something we only get by having it given to us - directly by G-d.

As you read the Gospels, keep an eye open to see this demonstrated. Also, reading the NLT, if you encounter something you're not sure of the meaning of, looking at the passage in the ESV is a GREAT way to study! The 2 versions are about as opposite as you can get: the NLT translates concepts, while the ESV tries to translate word for word. Every version has it's strengths and weaknesses, they all help, but these 2 complement each other really well.

This is something I hadn't thought of before, the idea that I should be as a Christian should be and then faith may be given. I had always thought of faith as something I would develop, find or decide on. I'll have to ask my Christian friend about this. Thanks for that.

 

[oi_antz]

This is something I hadn't thought of before, the idea that I should be as a Christian should be and then faith may be given. I had always thought of faith as something I would develop, find or decide on. I'll have to ask my Christian friend about this. Thanks for that.

No I wouldn't say that is really what is required to obtain faith, I think the point Ray is making to you is that you can't just expect to get faith by "being as a Christian should be" (what does that even mean?), but instead faith is given to you when God decides to give it to you. In fact no-one has a right to tell you what you need to do in order to receive the gift of faith from God, it is something you're going to have to work out for yourself. Just as that clip CryptoLutheran showed you, God has a special perspective that He can look into the "safe in your kitchen" (which is your heart) and tell you what He see's in there. The way I understand my relationship with God, is that while I treasure sin in my heart, I am honoring myself and dishonoring Him. So unless I am prepared to give up all my sin, I just can't expect to be able to put God first in my life. I think if you look at what Ray said in post #33 this might fit quite well into the jig-saw puzzle you have here. This has been my message to you all through this thread, that essentially we have to make a tough decision: do we worship God or do we worship ourselves. In other words, do we want what God says is good for us, or do we want what we think is good for us. You might recognize this from the story of Adam and Eve, yes that story can be considered in a way that is relevant to us personally.

You're right to cross-reference what people tell you, and if you're not sure that you agree with what someone says, insist that they back it up with scripture so you can see for yourself that you aren't just trusting hear-say. And don't be afraid to argue if someone presents scripture out of context, that is a terrible sin and it must be stopped. Even if the reader isn't Christian, as long as everyone is being honest about what the verse means to them, then the truth will be agreeable if it is intended to be agreeable (some parts of the Bible are cryptic and not meant to be known by everyone, but the parts that are relevant to faith are stated very clearly).

Ray, I think you should quote the verse/s that support what you said and perhaps then Jimtem will understand why you said it.

Edit: Hi Jimtem, just want to make a couple of corrections to this, but I'll leave the original intact above for reference.

It seems after reading Romans 10 and other passages that talk about faith, that faith is always on offer, but not everyone chooses to accept it. So perhaps it was not right to say "faith is given to you when God decides to give it to you", the meaning of that phrase does appear to be inconsistent with examples of faith throughout the Bible. I think it is better to say you can only receive it when you are ready to receive it.

The other thing I want to correct is this statement: "In other words, do we want what God says is good for us, or do we want what we think is good for us." - I think that when we understand what God says is good for us, then we will agree that it is good for us. But while we don't understand why God says something is good for us, we will be more inclined to disagree with Him and choose to do things that we find pleasant. So it would have been better to say "In other words, do we want what God says is good for us, or do we want what pleases us."

 

[bling]

No, I just want to live as I should.



Do I want a partner? Yes. Do I need the burden of sin removed? Since I haven't felt Gods existence the idea of sin hasn't meant anything to me. I would have to answer no on this question.

Look God is here to help people and lots of people need help and really want help, so God will go to them first. If you do not feel a real “need” for God, He will not just hang around bothering you. He will come to you any time you feel the need (he can be everywhere all the time). Sin is really doing things that hurt others and these acts of transgression will burden us. We can try to do stuff to alleviate the burden or less the burden, but they are not going to work over the long term. Have you done things that have hurt people and tend to painfully remember them?

 

[If Not For Grace]

Before I believed--I knew there had to be SOMEthing that created the universe. Even if I bought the big bang, what went bang? Gases? then where did they come from? Even if bought Evloution? Where did the chicken, egg or single cell ameba come from? SOMEthing started something was as far as I could get, but it was a start. If there was SOMEthing, what was it? What if anything did it want/need?

Whatever it was had to be pretty smart-I mean everything on Earth & BEYOND (we do know there is a beyond this galaxy) worked in conjunction w/everything else--AND I studied these things Biology, Astronomy, etc. regular school stuff and decided that as the 12-Stepper's say; There was a POWER greater than me. I "knew" about religion & did not want any part of it (STILL Don't) I looked at several types of religion & found most of em only differed on a few points but they all had things in common (some believed in reincarnation, others an afterlife & some means/connotation of what that was like). So I say see if you can start there--by just admitting there is SOMEthing-then see if you can commune with it? I mean
if there is a "god" it ain't afraid of you or your questions..

Just start the journey-& don't give up just cause you hit a rought spot or two.

 

[oi_antz]

Just start the journey-& don't give up just cause you hit a rought spot or two.

It's important I think to know why you would want to be Christian, I mean it is the relinquishing of materialism for spirituality and the willing bondage to serving Jesus Christ (which He says is a friendship rather than slavery).
Some people become Christian because they are afraid of death, others become Christian because they want to join a social club, others become Christian because they are fed up with the way the world is going and they want to do something in God's best interests. The faith you get will depend a lot on your motive to be Christian:

Ask, Seek, Knock

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

Whatever you ask for, whether it be fruit from the top or bottom of the tree, He will be able to use you to serve His best interests.

 

[razeontherock]

Good points Antz! I wonder how our OP is doing?

 

[oi_antz]

Good points Antz! I wonder how our OP is doing?

Well, remember the parable of the sower, some people's hearts aren't ready so more time is required before the soil is fertile enough to produce a crop. And also remember what Paul said here:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (New International Version, ©2011)

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

So I think as long as Jimtem keeps an open mind to Christianity the Lord will build him up over time and one day when he's ready the seed might flourish. He certainly sounds like a nice enough person for the Lord to love