Do These Acts Break Commandments?

[John Hyperspace]

Well said. Are you arguing there is no sin? I've still thought sin exists as any choice we make against our conscience. So we weigh up these moral dilemmas and go from there according to loving God, ourselves and others, keeping a clear conscience.

No, I'm not proposing there's no sin; but two kinds of measurement, or, according to two different measures: by the commandments, and, by faith. The former measures sin as "lawlessness" or "not of law" (1 John 3:4) which is committed by a person under the law, doing an action which violates the commandments. The latter measures sin as "faithlessness" or "not of faith" (Romans 14:23) which is committed by a person under faith, doing an action which violates faith.

What I was asking initially is coming from the measure of the former type of sin; that of legal breaking of an explicit commandment. Are those things actually "lawlessness" in the sense of, violation of commandment.

Now, anything can cause the "sin" of an act not of faith. If we teach something that is not a sin (by violation of the commandments) as being a sin, then it can become a sin (by violation of faith) even though it was never a sin (by violation of the commandments) to begin with. Thus causing a "stumbling" to the illusionary "sinner": that is, by placing a "stumblingblock" by making something sin which was not sin to begin with. Much like the Pharisees did by "enlarging" the commandments to include many things that were not commanded at all.

Consider Eve. When the serpent asked about the command concerning the tree of knowledge of good and evil; Eve said she was commanded, not to eat from it, neither to touch it: but we notice that the Lord never commanded them not to touch it: so where did this "expansion" of command come from? Was it from Adam? Did Eve expand the commandment herself? Did this "expansion" of commandment play a part in leading to Eve's disobedience? Jesus said the expansion of commandments was causing stumbling, as did the prophets (Mark 7:7-8, Mark 7:13, Malachi 2:8, Titus 1:14); did Eve stumble into sin because of that expansion of commandment?

What I'm wondering here is, which should take precedence to us? Backward engineering commandments, or, not putting stumblingblocks in front of the faith of others? This appears to me to be what Paul is teaching in the passage about "whatsoever is not of faith is sin": Romans 14:10, Romans 14:13, Romans 14:19: so if we're not 100% certain that some act is certainly "lawlessness" (by violation of the commandments) isn't it better to, not claim it is? I'm not saying "Everybody do drugs and fornicate!" but; love one another, and in uncertainty, isn't it better to not give occasion for stumbling, or, offence of faith; than to backward engineer more commandments for people to obey or, be accused of "unrepentant sin"?

 

[xlr8ing]

1Cor.6:15-20. Yes, our body is a temple. I repented and asked for forgiveness for the graffiti (ink- marking the body), pollution (mind alerting anything), fornication, and gambling (personal gain- greed). No good has come from any of it; I diligently put these things behind me.

Our spiritual walk is a personal one. The NT (especially in the writings of Paul) is an instruction manual for members of the body of Christ. We are all sinners by nature of our flesh, and no one is perfect but Christ himself. I do the best I can to remain a strong Christian soldier, and my successes currently out weigh my failures. I fight the good fight. I thank the LORD for HIS abundant mercy, forgiveness, and grace upon us all.

 

[John Hyperspace]

The Priests (in the days of the Temple) did not use instruments. The Church of Christ mirrored this practice but what they didn't realize was, that the reason they didn't use instruments is because they met on Sabbath. So when the Temple was open for worship on Sabbath no instruments were used because Jewish halacha (Jewish law, based on God's but with additions meant for clarity though I certainly don't agree with some of it) said playing an instrument is work. This is the part I said most in the COC don't know... the reason behind the lack of instruments by the priests.

That's a good point and just another example of how backwards engineering commandments can lead to a situation in which definitions of words aren't being properly employed, leading to a situation where entire swaths of people (in this case, even fellow Christians) are being condemned without a legitimate cause.

1 John 3:4 defines sin pretty well... interesting study... to look up the word translated as "transgressing the law" or however any certain version translates that. Look where else that word is used and in what context... it is a worthy study. Blessings John.

Thank you; I've been studying (for the umpteenth time) the subject these days which is why all the threads; trying to sharpen my iron with other iron, as the proverb goes.

 

[John Hyperspace]

1Cor.6:15-20. Yes, our body is a temple. I repented and asked for forgiveness for the graffiti (ink- marking the body), pollution (mind alerting anything), fornication, and gambling (personal gain- greed). No good has come from any of it; I diligently put these things behind me.

I understand the concept of "no good comes from it"; especially given the passage speaks of, "not all things edify": but I'll draw attention again to the fact that it really seems that "fornication" is meaning "prostitution" which (aside from the word seeming to actually mean 'harlot' and being from the base of 'to sell') is especially drawn out in this passage as we see Paul seems to be speaking of prostitutes: 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 So I'm not even remotely sure that "fornication" is even speaking of two unmarried people engaging in relations.

What also makes this passage peculiar and unclear (at least, in regards to the literal understanding; the spiritual understanding of it is abundantly clear) to me is this: 1 Corinthians 6:18 so Paul is saying that every sin a man does is not against the body, except for the singular sin of "fornication" which is the one sin that is against the body. So not only does this rule out tattoos or drug use being under the "don't sin against the body" category (since apparently fornication is the singular sin that fits this category) but how isn't adultery in the same category since it's the very same physical act? It's all just, very unclear in the literal sense. It's almost either Paul doesn't know what he's talking about since fornication can't be the "only sin" against the body; or we are not at all understanding what Paul is actually addressing here. The latter seems like it has to be the case. But then, what is Paul actually saying here?

About the "mind altering anything" did you know that almost everything alters the mind? Love being one of the most powerful? Chocolate, television, music, etc. About gambling; if personal gain is greed; doesn't that make having a job a sinful practice? Investing? Basically anyone running a business is gambling all the time because everything you do is a gamble in profit margins.

Our spiritual walk is a personal one. The NT (especially in the writings of Paul) is an instruction manual for members of the body of Christ. We are all sinners by nature of our flesh, and no one is perfect but Christ himself. I do the best I can to remain a strong Christian soldier, and my successes currently out weigh my failures. I fight the good fight. I thank the LORD for HIS abundant mercy, forgiveness, and grace upon us all.

Oh I'm certainly grateful for mercy, forgiveness and grace upon all.

 

[xlr8ing]

ops... lost the net for a few...

 

[xlr8ing]

It is my personal opinion that the more we try to dissect the word, the more fault we find with it. So I simply read, and accept what I happen to understand at the time. Every time I reread the bible I understand different things that speak to me at the time. I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me. I think its more about faith than anything. The more faith we have, the more we allow the word to work in our hearts, instead of questioning all the details. It is with a logical mind we question through the flesh, not with a spiritual heart. Love more, question less is an adaptation Ive adopted to have more peace with scripture. Love and peace to all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[xlr8ing]

...which reminds me of the mustard seed reference, among others. Its not a matter of how much grows, but where.

 

[Jim Langston]

All this talk about commandments is making me wonder about something. We can point at the ten commandments, and there they are. "Don't do this" "Do that": but what about a lot of other things that, seem to be viewed as "sinful"; I was wondering, where is the commandment for some of these? I'm going to go ahead and forgo the ten-thousand ton elephant in the room:

1. Drug use. Let's have this meaning, drugs like, alcohol, marijuana since these seem to be two big "that's sinful"s; but also putting in all manner of drugs from LSD to cocaine to, whatever the streets are hawking these days. Also, would we add drugs to this list? Not, drug drugs; but, drugs like from a pharmacy?

2. Fornication. This one gets people hopping mad at this "sin" but I don't see it on the ten commandments, so why is this a sin? Technically this word in scripture looks to mean "prostitution" but people seem to categorize it as relations prior to marriage; so I'm giving it its own place on the list.

3. Gambling. Sinful breaking of a commandment?

4. Musical instruments in the church service?

5. Dancing?

6. Prostitution?

7. What about occult practitioners? Here I mean, people who are professing Christians who practice "magick" (yes, with a "k"; it's ridiculous, I know but that's how they spell it). All of their occult rituals are all "in the name of Christ" and they call it "Christian white magick": I presume this can get people stomping mad at sin, but where is the commandment?

8. Tatoos and piercings? Is this a sinful practice?

That's all I can think of right now. Let me be clear in case anyone jumps the gun here; I'm not advocating any of this, I'm wondering where the commandment to not do these things is at? This is a sincere question. It's that I'm looking at the ten commandments and wondering now if I actually break any commandments. The only one that looks "ify" to me is "adultery" but that only in application to Jesus further adding that, even lusting is an act of adultery. But, then again, I'm not married so, can I even commit adultery by lusting? Or, would I have to have a wife to be commiting "mental adultery"?

There are specific scriptures for some of these such as magick (God denounces "spells and incantations) and fornication (thou shalt not commit adultery) but Jesus gave us a new yardstick to go on, Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy might and all thy soul and love thy neighbor as thyself. All the laws and prophets hang on these. So lets look at each of these from that point of view.

1. Drug/alcohol use. Jesus and his deciples were drinking wine and the pharisees (or maybe scribes) tried to catch Him at this since some believed alcohol was sin. They asked Him, is it a sin to drink? Jesus responded that it was not a sin to drink but it was a sin to be a drunkard. As Paul put it, all things are lawful to me but I am not to be mastered by anything. Why is being a drunkard a sin? For the reason than when you are drunk you are fairly worthless. You can't act right, you get in fights, people have to take care of you, etc... You are caring more about yourself than those around you who have to put up with you.

So, is drinking a sin? No, letting it rule you is. Same with all drugs, in my opinion. Some people, like those with PTSD, may need marijuana as a medicine to cope. They are not letting it rule them, however, and instead of making them more unsociable it makes them more sociable.

2. Fornication. When I get married I want to marry a virgin, a clean woman. I can't do that if you've already slept with her. You love yourself more than me. Fornication also leads to fatherless children, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion among other things. The only thing being served there is your lust. There is no love for anyone other than yourself.

3. Gambling. There is no commandment or law about gambling I've ever seen in the bible. The bible doesn't seem to say anything about it specifically except give a few examples of its usage. I would say as lobg as you aren't addicted to it, using it to tskes someone's money who is addicted or spending money your family needs to live on it should be fine wirhin reason. Once it becomes a problem for you or anyone else it becomes sin (like drinking).

4. Musical instuments in church service. Bible doesn't say anything against it as far as I've found. Be wary of those that would make sins of things that are not sins (like the scribes and pharisees). Thete is a verse that says make a joyful noise unto the Lord.

5. Dancing. Again, bible says nothing about it really.

6. Prostitution. See fornication. Also, the bible says the price of a harlot is an abomination.

7. Magick. Spells and incantations are a method of tricking the mind into believing something strong enough so that it happens. It doesn't occur because of the spell or incantation but because you believe it will. He who has the faith of a mustard seed and tells this mountain to be lifted up and cast into the ocean... You are putting your belief in something other than God, braking the greatest commandment, love the Lord your God with all your heart... Also, I believe you are talking about cabalism which brings angels and other nonsense into their spells. Basically you make up your own belief system and put faith in that rather than God. All kinds of wrong, including the fact that this belief system now rules you (see drugs and alcohol). You are not loving God, you are not loving others, you are loving power.

8. Tatoos and piercings. Tricky one. There was a long discussion in these forums about what is wrong with tatoos. I do know that God told the Isrealites that they would not mark their skin. I can only conjecture why this would be. It may have something to do with God telli g people to dress medestly. Perhaps it is as simple as people not going around "Hey! Look at me!". Perhaps it has something to do with loving yourself over caring about how others think about having to look at your tatooed self. I'm not sure. If you know it offends some people why would you do it? Because you love yourself more than them?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, I'm not proposing there's no sin; but two kinds of measurement, or, according to two different measures: by the commandments, and, by faith. The former measures sin as "lawlessness" or "not of law" (1 John 3:4) which is committed by a person under the law, doing an action which violates the commandments. The latter measures sin as "faithlessness" or "not of faith" (Romans 14:23) which is committed by a person under faith, doing an action which violates faith.

What I was asking initially is coming from the measure of the former type of sin; that of legal breaking of an explicit commandment. Are those things actually "lawlessness" in the sense of, violation of commandment.

Now, anything can cause the "sin" of an act not of faith. If we teach something that is not a sin (by violation of the commandments) as being a sin, then it can become a sin (by violation of faith) even though it was never a sin (by violation of the commandments) to begin with. Thus causing a "stumbling" to the illusionary "sinner": that is, by placing a "stumblingblock" by making something sin which was not sin to begin with. Much like the Pharisees did by "enlarging" the commandments to include many things that were not commanded at all.

Consider Eve. When the serpent asked about the command concerning the tree of knowledge of good and evil; Eve said she was commanded, not to eat from it, neither to touch it: but we notice that the Lord never commanded them not to touch it: so where did this "expansion" of command come from? Was it from Adam? Did Eve expand the commandment herself? Did this "expansion" of commandment play a part in leading to Eve's disobedience? Jesus said the expansion of commandments was causing stumbling, as did the prophets (Mark 7:7-8, Mark 7:13, Malachi 2:8, Titus 1:14); did Eve stumble into sin because of that expansion of commandment?

What I'm wondering here is, which should take precedence to us? Backward engineering commandments, or, not putting stumblingblocks in front of the faith of others? This appears to me to be what Paul is teaching in the passage about "whatsoever is not of faith is sin": Romans 14:10, Romans 14:13, Romans 14:19: so if we're not 100% certain that some act is certainly "lawlessness" (by violation of the commandments) isn't it better to, not claim it is? I'm not saying "Everybody do drugs and fornicate!" but; love one another, and in uncertainty, isn't it better to not give occasion for stumbling, or, offence of faith; than to backward engineer more commandments for people to obey or, be accused of "unrepentant sin"?

So you believe that if we are to tell other believers to not fornicate, not to gamble, not to engage in prostitution, not to do drugs, and not to partake in witchcraft, we are putting stumbling blocks in their way?



The problem I see with your view on this here is that you are trying to justify things that are clearly condemned in Scripture by the use of other words (See my recent post to you on this here involving Scripture). Another problem in order for you to make this line of thinking work is that you have to ignore your moral compass, as well. The safer play is to do the right thing. For if you engage in gambling, fornication, prostitution, witchcraft, and drugs and you miss out on entering God's Kingdom, was your loose play with God's Word and your conscience really worth it?

As for Eve recounting what God said in regards to the Commandment:
There is no indication that God did not specifically say to Eve in not touching of the fruit would result in death for her (apart from Adam). There would have been no reason for her to lie. This was a unique Command to her. For we know that Eve sinned first, but both of their eyes were not opened until Adam ate of the fruit. For Adam is the Federal Head of the human race. In other words, Eve was given a specific unique command in not touching the fruit because the LORD knew what she was going to do (Whereas Adam was not given this Command).

Side Note:

Oh, and your case that the Bible has to specifically say the words you are looking for in order to condemn it: -- is wrong. First, the Bible is a spiritual book whereby it's meaning is hidden to those who are seeking to sin (and also serve God) or those who have not studied God's Word to show themselves approved unto God. Second, it uses certain commands that is a covering of other commands. For example: Paul said if you love your neighbor (which is a command) you will also not steal, murder, lie, etc. (Which are other commands) (See Romans 13:8-10). So yes. There are blanket commands. There are commands that speak generally to cover other sins. We do not need a .... "Do not smear poop on your neighbor's walls" in God's Word in order to not do it. We just know that this is wrong by the fact that we are told to love our neighbor. For clearly smearing poop on your neighbor's walls is unloving (and is just basic moral common sense). Hence, why your argument for trying to justify your idea of fornication, prostitution, social drug use, gambling, witchcraft, and tattoos: --- is wrong.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have to realize that man is sinful. He wants to sin and do evil. Sin blinds men. The moment you sin, it blinds you and keeps you captive to do it and to be a slave to it.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, these things would not be an issue if you were to imitate the life of Jesus as the Scriptures tell us. Did Jesus gamble? No. Did Jesus do drugs? No. Did Jesus engage in witchcraft? No.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are specific scriptures for some of these such as magick (God denounces "spells and incantations) and fornication (thou shalt not commit adultery) but Jesus gave us a new yardstick to go on, Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy might and all thy soul and love thy neighbor as thyself. All the laws and prophets hang on these. So lets look at each of these from that point of view.

Dear Jim:

Good morning, and God bless you.
I hope your day is going good today in the LORD.

Anyways, to get down to business:
Well, I like what you have written above here. We can never forget to look at God's laws thru the Laws of Love. Thank you for bring that up.

1. Drug/alcohol use. Jesus and his deciples were drinking wine and the pharisees (or maybe scribes) tried to catch Him at this since some believed alcohol was sin. They asked Him, is it a sin to drink? Jesus responded that it was not a sin to drink but it was a sin to be a drunkard.

What verse or passage in the Bible did Jesus say this?
Are you using a different translation that says this?

As Paul put it, all things are lawful to me but I am not to be mastered by anything. Why is being a drunkard a sin? For the reason than when you are drunk you are fairly worthless. You can't act right, you get in fights, people have to take care of you, etc... You are caring more about yourself than those around you who have to put up with you.

So, is drinking a sin? No, letting it rule you is. Same with all drugs, in my opinion. Some people, like those with PTSD, may need marijuana as a medicine to cope. They are not letting it rule them, however, and instead of making them more unsociable it makes them more sociable.

A. Wine in Biblical Times was Mixed with Water.

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made pure grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

1. Revelation 14:10 (Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)
2. Psalms 75:8
3. 1 Timothy 5:23
4. Proverbs 9:2
5. Isaiah 1:22
6. Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.
7. John 19:34 (Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood - See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 NIV

“Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to use it.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine (for the times).

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

B. The Nature of Alcohol & Why Jesus's Miracle Was Fresh Grape Juice.

The Nature of Alcohol:

Alcoholic wine is a product of decay and death. God creates things that are full of life and things that are good. If you were to take alcohol and put it in a cup and then put some dirty coins in there, the alcohol would clean the coins. If you were to put a small piece of fruit or meat in the alcohol, it would dry it out. The alcohol has no understanding of being outside your body or inside your body. Soon as it enters the body, it does the same thing. It seeks to dry out things and to destroy your living tissue. But it is a good thing we have an immune system that can fight back so as to survive. In other words, alcohol is a very minor poison that your body can counter effects of whereby you will not die. But the abuse of this poison can easily kill you because of it's harmful effects.

In John chapter 2: Jesus created unfermented wine. Jesus could not have made the water into alcoholic wine or fermented wine for several reasons:

#1. Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advise or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#2. Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not?

#3. The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

For example:

Lets say you are enjoying a nice glass of wine at your local restaurant when you are approached by a fellow believer in Christ who says, "I am offended to see you drink that wine." "My brother used to look up to you for spiritual strength and now he has fallen back into alcoholism because of your public drinking here." What should you think, say or do?

Also, lets say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper? What should the elders think, say or do at this point? Should they continue to use alcohol in the Lord's supper knowing it could make more alcoholics to potentially stumble again?

For drinking soberly and in the privacy of your own home is not the same thing as drinking openly where others could see you and potentially stumble.

So while it is lawful to drink soberly and in private, Jesus did not turn water into alcoholic wine as if he placed his seal of approval upon it for you to do the same in public. Jesus calls you to pick up your cross and to deny yourself in everything in your life. For we are supposed to be holy and separate from the world and not be associated with the unfruitful works of darkness. We are to dedicate our lives to Jesus in all things for our love for Him. Not out of some sense of legalism, but out of love. Love for God (Jesus) and love for your fellow brother.

But to be clear: Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!​

C. Wine, Knowledge, and Our Conscience.

I believe a saint can drink today's wine and not be condemned. I believe in their ignorance, they would be saved. For Paul says you can drink anything. Granted, Paul is not telling us to tempt the LORD and drink known poisons. But see, that is just it. Alcohol is a poison and many Christians today do not realize that fact. So while it is lawful for certain Christians to drink today's wine (so as not to get drunk). If they learn that wine is a poison (like myself) and they know it can only lead to destruction and they socially drink it (despite their conscience condemning them), they are committing sin. But if they do not believe alcohol is in any way harmful and their conscience is clear 100%, then they are free to drink socially as long as they do not get drunk. Granted, in the Old Testament, there was no such liberty that we have in Christ. In the Old Testament, drinking strong wine would have been a sin.

3. Gambling. There is no commandment or law about gambling I've ever seen in the bible. The bible doesn't seem to say anything about it specifically except give a few examples of its usage. I would say as long as you aren't addicted to it, using it to takes someone's money who is addicted or spending money your family needs to live on it should be fine wirhin reason. Once it becomes a problem for you or anyone else it becomes sin (like drinking).

Proverbs 1:18-19 says,
18 "And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof."

When a person gambles, they are taking away the life of another person's financial well being. You are seeking to win on the odds that others will lose. In fact, it is the only way you can succeed is off the loss of others. This is showing a lack of love for one's neighbor. For there are people who go home broke, and some of them even go into debt.

Proverbs 13:11 says,
"Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished: but he that gathereth by labour shall increase"

"He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live." (Proverbs 15:27).

There is one motivation behind gambling and that is greed or the winning of more money without having to work for it honestly.

Also, winning tons of money means that you love the idea of having lots of money and that you are coveting after it. But the Bible says,

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Timothy 6:10).

8. Tatoos and piercings. Tricky one. There was a long discussion in these forums about what is wrong with tatoos. I do know that God told the Isrealites that they would not mark their skin. I can only conjecture why this would be. It may have something to do with God telli g people to dress medestly. Perhaps it is as simple as people not going around "Hey! Look at me!". Perhaps it has something to do with loving yourself over caring about how others think about having to look at your tatooed self. I'm not sure. If you know it offends some people why would you do it? Because you love yourself more than them?

I believe God can forgive people who came to the LORD who have already had tattoos, etc. I also believe God can forgive a believer these things after coming to the knowledge that this is a sin, as well. The problem arises, when a believer thinks it is okay and encourages tattoos and piercings (and takes pride in their own markings). While believers can tattoo themselves with Bible verses, they can come off as being scary, bad, or evil to other people (Regardless). The Bible says we are to abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22). Another problem with promoting tattoos and piercings is that they defile the flesh of their own body (Which is God's temple). God says if we defile our temple, we will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17). Granted, God is very forgiving and understanding. So if a person has a Godly sorrowful over their tattoos and seeks to repent of them and they do not have the money to remove them, God will of course understand. But I believe it is a sin for a believer to take pride in their tattoos and to promote them. For it is a defiling of God's temple; And we are made in the image of God.

I hope what I said here helps.
And may God's love shine upon you this fine day.

With loving kindness to you in Christ:

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...

Source Used:
Bible & Alcohol

 

[samir]

All this talk about commandments is making me wonder about something. We can point at the ten commandments, and there they are. "Don't do this" "Do that": but what about a lot of other things that, seem to be viewed as "sinful"; I was wondering, where is the commandment for some of these? I'm going to go ahead and forgo the ten-thousand ton elephant in the room:

1. Drug use. Let's have this meaning, drugs like, alcohol, marijuana since these seem to be two big "that's sinful"s; but also putting in all manner of drugs from LSD to cocaine to, whatever the streets are hawking these days. Also, would we add drugs to this list? Not, drug drugs; but, drugs like from a pharmacy?

None of those drugs are sinful. Marijuana helps treat seizures. Cocaine is still used as medicine today in the US in eye surgeries. Heroine was a medicine used to reduce pain before morphine was available. A recent study found magic mushrooms (a hallucinogen like LSD) greatly improved anxiety and depression in cancer patients. Street drugs are just pharmaceutical drugs/medicine that became illegal because they could be abused and the government determined the risks exceeded the benefits.

2. Fornication. This one gets people hopping mad at this "sin" but I don't see it on the ten commandments, so why is this a sin?

It's breaks a New Testament commandment.

3. Gambling. Sinful breaking of a commandment?

4. Musical instruments in the church service?

5. Dancing?

None of those are sins.

6. Prostitution?

If fornication or adultery is involved, it breaks those commandments. All sex outside of marriage is sinful.

The only one that looks "ify" to me is "adultery" but that only in application to Jesus further adding that, even lusting is an act of adultery. But, then again, I'm not married so, can I even commit adultery by lusting? Or, would I have to have a wife to be commiting "mental adultery"?

That verse is commonly misunderstood. Lusting is definitely NOT adultery. Lust means a strong desire. Jesus was simply teaching that it is a sin to strongly desire something sinful even if you never act on that desire. For example, if you lust to fornicate then you are guilty of sin even if you never fornicate with anyone. If you lust after something good (like righteousness) then it is praiseworthy.

I'm reminded of St Augustine's definition of sin which is "a word, deed, or desire in opposition to the eternal law of God."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John, I could go point by point.. but instead I think a better way to address your comments would be to say that when you study the law (gasp) we find that most commandments cannot be kept by most.

Well, this is not true. The Bible does clearly teach Sinless Perfectionism.

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.

In Psalm 119:11, David says he hides His Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD.

Jesus says to the disciples to pray so as not to be led into temptation (Matthew 26:41). Okay, so if you are to pray so as not to be led into temptation, then how can you sin if you are led away from temptation to sin by GOD?

Peter identifies the false prophets as having eyes full adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

Ephesians 4:17-27 says, "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:Neither give place to the devil."

How can you put off the former conversation of the old man if you believe that you can never do so in this life as a believer? How can you put away lying? Why even bother to be ye angry and sin not if you are just going to do so anyways? One would think God was playing a cruel joke on you in telling you not to sin and yet you couldn't really stop sinning.

Remember, the Scriptures say God places a way of escape for us in times of temptation.

Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Heavenly Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. If Jesus told you to be perfect (Which would include not sinning), then Jesus would be lying or tricking you into believing that you could be perfect (When in reality you could not be perfect like the Heavenly Father).

What did Joseph do when he was confronted with sexual temptation? Did he give in? Or did Joseph flee from such temptation? Do you think you can do what Joseph did?

There are more verses, but hopefully this should suffice

Even if Jesus was alive, he couldn't keep all the commandments (double gasp).

Jesus kept all the Commandments that applied to man in general (so as to be our substitute --- of which we agree, I hope).

For sin is defined as the breaking of God's Commandments or laws.

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4).

And the Scriptures say Jesus was without sin and He was holy.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15).

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens." (Hebrews 7:26).

The reason is that some commandments are specifically for priests (Levitical) and even when he was here, those commandments didn't apply to Jesus.

Because Jesus was from a different priesthood order.

Jesus was from the priesthood order of Melchizedek.
But this does not mean that Jesus was above the other Laws within the Torah. Jesus could change them.... yes (Because He is God), but Jesus never once broke any of the commands in the Torah (Which I am sure you will agree --- I hope).

Some commandments are tied to us being in the land, or tied to the Temple, or some are specifically for men while others are for women. Some are for animals, some to the land itself, and many are tied to things that may or may not apply depending on the circumstances. In the end, there are "about" 80 to 120 commandments that would apply to us (I believe) that can be done regardless of where we are.

I can agree with this. Jesus did not build an Ark, or do certain things that were for only for certain people under certain circumstances (Which would also apply to the written Law).

So, could I find commandments dealing with tatoos, piercings, drug abuse,etc.? Sure.... but won't this mean me quoting some OT passages? Again, sure... but that shouldn't cause concern. Jesus said that ALL the Law and Prophets hang on the Big 2... loving God and loving neighbor. So for arguments sake, lets say there are 80 commandments that apply today under the conditions we are in... every one of them could be filed under loving God or loving neighbor. The 2 sum up the 10, and the 10 sum up the rest because even the 10 are divided by loving God and loving neighbor.

Actually, even New Testament Commands condemns prostitution, gambling, witchcraft, fornication, tattoos, and drug abuse, etc. Like you said, in some cases these are covered by the big 2 blanket Commands to love God and to love your neighbor. But they are also clarified a little more with other blanket commands in the New Testament, as well.

By the way, I respect anyone's method of praise, but I just don't get the lack of instruments. I know where the practice came from, but few Church of Christ members do.

I believe the spirit behind the instrument determines it's use. If I walked into a church that was listening to Christian heavy metal, I would just turn around and walk back out because the spirit of the music is dark (and plays on your negative emotions: like hate). But if the music was uplifting and made me want to praise God in a righteous and wholesome way whereby it would help me to continue in the fruits of the Spirit --- This is a good thing (of course).


...

 

[Blade]

Dear my brother John..

1st.. JESUS IS REAL! It is written There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Drugs.. there are DRUGS we KNOW are wrong and should never touch. People can drink.. the HARD stuff.. would be unwise. My self? I dont.

Fornication...to just think about someone else.. lust.. is a sin period. Man/Woman.. we ALL get those feelings desires so lets not be stupid. Just never think things that will can lead to things that should be done in marriage. If they get to strong.. take a cold shower. He GAVE us this attraction to the opposite sex.

Gambling....I know what God show'd me.. for me its wrong. I just know my Father never gambles on anything. Just saying.. between you and Him.

Musical... wow AWESOME! Yet some dont like it think is wrong and should never be in the HOUSE OF GOD! Yet.. they would be shocked if they new how the Jewish people use to worship the Father..

Dancing....if your talking about parties or CLUBs.. clubs.. yeah.. not wise. But dancing over all.. God LOVES to move.. to HIS beat not the worlds

Prostitution.....Israel.....His wife.. left Him for others. Then selling her self to anyone.. He stands in line.. buys her back.. the love He has for HIS is so deep so far so unknown. So.. yes.. very wrong.

occult practitioners...not really sure what your talking about.. white magic?

Tatoos and piercings...the word OT talks about this and it was a sin aka wrong then and is now. But MOST dont know this and I would NEVER say a word.. for Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin.. you say you see your sin remains. So like those that never heard the name Jesus are blind so are those in so many things about the word. They never new it was wrong.. And GOD does not judge them or condemn them.

You have accuses to the internet. So you can easily search the WORD the BIBLE from so many sites on this stuff. All you get here is what each one of us personally believe (on SOME things). You seek HIM.. JESUS IS REAL! So real.. the things you should not do.. if you really want to serve Him.. be HIS.. He will by His sweet sweet Holy Spirit that Jesus said the Holy Father will give to those that ask Him for it.. will lead and guide you into ALL truth. No HE IS REAL! We dont go by feelings sight or hearing..we walk by FIATH.. for with out this faith we can never please Him. Faith is trusting HIM that you can not see or even feel most the times. You pick up HIS word and ask HIM to show you talk to you.. oh HE WILL! Just be like a child and BELIEVE..that if HE said it HE WILL DO IT!.

You KNOW the truth.. HE wrote it on your heart...He LOVES YOU SO MUCH!.. You are HIS! He is not judging you nor does He condemn you.. He is happy with you..KNOW THIS! For to know JESUS is .. for whom the SON sets free aka YOU..is free indeed. There is so much you CAN DO..yet is unwise..for SIN no longer has a hold on you.. you have been SET FREE! Praise HIM always.. talk to HIM always.. in ALL things.. and KNOW that ALL things are possible with HIM to those that BELIEVE

 

[Ken Rank]

Well, this is not true. The Bible does clearly teach Sinless Perfectionism.

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.

In Psalm 119:11, David says he hides His Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD.

Jesus says to the disciples to pray so as not to be led into temptation (Matthew 26:41). Okay, so if you are to pray so as not to be led into temptation, then how can you sin if you are led away from temptation to sin by GOD?

Peter identifies the false prophets as having eyes full adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

Ephesians 4:17-27 says, "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:Neither give place to the devil."

How can you put off the former conversation of the old man if you believe that you can never do so in this life as a believer? How can you put away lying? Why even bother to be ye angry and sin not if you are just going to do so anyways? One would think God was playing a cruel joke on you in telling you not to sin and yet you couldn't really stop sinning.

Remember, the Scriptures say God places a way of escape for us in times of temptation.

Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Heavenly Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. If Jesus told you to be perfect (Which would include not sinning), then Jesus would be lying or tricking you into believing that you could be perfect (When in reality you could not be perfect like the Heavenly Father).

What did Joseph do when he was confronted with sexual temptation? Did he give in? Or did Joseph flee from such temptation? Do you think you can do what Joseph did?

There are more verses, but hopefully this should suffice

Greetings. I understand your point but... are you incapable of sinning? Are you really taking the position that you are already perfected, made incorruptible? Because if you are, I promise you, I could follow you around for a short time and find sin... I think we strive to be perfect, strive the walk in pure righteousness, but we are not perfected yet, made incorruptible. This happens at his return and until then we have been given a down payment, a deposit an earnest in the form of the Holy Spirit (see 2 Corinthians 1:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5). The idea that you no longer EVER sin defies the point of being perfected at his return. If we aren't perfected until then, then by definition, we are imperfect.

Because Jesus was from a different priesthood order.

Jesus was from the priesthood order of Melchizedek.

I know... so the commandments that deal directly with Levites, doesn't apply to him or us, if we are not Levites.

But this does not mean that Jesus was above the other Laws within the Torah. Jesus could change them.... yes (Because He is God), but Jesus never once broke any of the commands in the Torah (Which I am sure you will agree --- I hope).

First of all, I adamantly disagree that he could or would change them. There is a commandment that says NOBODY is to add or take from them and if he did... he broke that commandment. Since you already repeated the verse I shared (1 John 3:4) then you know if he broke the command that says not to add or take from any command, he disqualified himself as messiah. And... if he could change his mind on what is sin... then doesn't his character change? Sin stands opposed to his character and He does not change... therefore, what is or is not sin doesn't change!

As far as commandments... again, many commandments simply don't apply. He is not "the land" so when we find a commandment that deals with the land, like allowing it rest one year out of 7, that does not apply to him.

Actually, even New Testament Commands condemns prostitution, gambling, witchcraft, fornication, tattoos, and drug abuse, etc. Like you said, in some cases these are covered by the big 2 blanket Commands to love God and to love your neighbor. But they are also clarified a little more with other blanket commands in the New Testament, as well.

Of course, and in some case he reveals the spirit behind the letter to be even harder. The letter says not to commit adultery, the spirit behind the letter says to lust in your heart for another woman means you have already sinned.

I believe the spirit behind the instrument determines it's use. If I walked into a church that was listening to Christian heavy metal, I would just turn around and walk back out because the spirit of the music is dark (and plays on your negative emotions: like hate). But if the music was uplifting and made me want to praise God in a righteous and wholesome way whereby it would help me to continue in the fruits of the Spirit --- This is a good thing (of course)....

I HATE heavy metal... but you are insisting that what pleases your tastes, touches your emotions personally is correct... and whatever stands opposed to your tastes is wrong. That is an area we all need to be careful of...not to use OUR understanding and OUR feelings to be the yardstick by which we judge others.

Shalom.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Also, these things would not be an issue if you were to imitate the life of Jesus as the Scriptures tell us. Did Jesus gamble? No. Did Jesus do drugs? No. Did Jesus engage in witchcraft? No.


...

Did Jesus write posts on Christian Forums?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Did Jesus write posts on Christian Forums?

So you believe Jesus does not live inside believers is not capable of leading a person to speak His Word thru them on a Christian forum?


...

 

[YouAreAwesome]

So you believe Jesus does not live inside believers is not capable of leading a person to speak His Word thru them on a Christian forum?


...

Nice try

 

[John Hyperspace]

So you believe that if we are to tell other believers to not fornicate, not to gamble, not to engage in prostitution, not to do drugs, and not to partake in witchcraft, we are putting stumbling blocks in their way?

Well, hold on; what I'm actually saying is that, if we tell others that "such and such" is "sinful", and if that thing actually isn't biblically sinful "by the book" (as it were), then, yes, we are now guilty of putting a stumblingblock in their way. We would be adding commandments that aren't there, which could very well be devastating to the faith of a "child" in Christ (or, even more mature).

For instance if someone comes to the faith and they are having relations with their girlfriend and ask "Is it a sin for me to have relations with a girlfriend?" then I'm personally going to say, "I don't see any prohibition to it" while I presume you would say "It's a sin, and [generally 'you are going to hell']". So, what I said was true, there's no prohibition that I see against it. You may point at the word 'fornication' in the scripture and say "that means sex between unmarried people" and I would reply "I'm not sure that it does; and I'm not going to risk putting a stumblingblock in front of this person over something I'm not sure of" (and note that this is my "by the book" and "by the letter of the law"; not even what I would actually say concerning grace and liberty in Christ- but just "by the letter")

The same applies to the other things. So yes, if a commandments isn't clearly stated, I'm not going to act as though it is, I'm going to rather, not give an occasion to stumble to anyone. Now, if the man said "I'm in an adulterous relationship; am I sinning?" I would reply "Certainly so; this is expressly forbidden by the letter of the law" or "I plan on bearing false witness during a trial, is this sin?" "Certainly so" etc.

The problem I see with your view on this here is that you are trying to justify things that are clearly condemned

No, I'm talking about things that are not clearly condemned; otherwise people would be stating clear passages. Adultery is clearly sin; false witness is clearly sin; murder is clearly sin: smoking drugs is not clearly sin. None of the things on the list are "clearly" sin.

Another problem in order for you to make this line of thinking work is that you have to ignore your moral compass, as well.

Ignoring my moral compass? Morality is determined by belief. How do you think my own moral compass clearly indicates anything moral for someone else? Little old ladies sometimes have a moral compass which forbids short hair on women, or, women dressing in anything that isn't a long dress. Is a woman who wears a dress that exposes her ankels inciting lust and morally wrong? Your current moral compass is vastly different than the moral compass of centuries passed. If a man asks a little old lady "I have a glass of wine with my meal each evening" and the lady reply "That is sinful, either stop or [something bad]" would you agree with her? Should the lady be sure to follow her moral compass and tell musicians to stop playing their instruments because it is "sinful"? Her moral compass says no one should ever dance for any reason, and it is breaking the commandments and is sinful and lust enciting. Do you agree?

The safer play is to do the right thing.

It seems to me the safer play (in regards for giving no occasion to stumble to another) is to not speak with certainty when we are not certain of the issue.

For if you engage in gambling, fornication, prostitution, witchcraft, and drugs and you miss out on entering God's Kingdom, was your loose play with God's Word and your conscience really worth it?

Everyone engages in gambling. You gamble with your life ever time you get in a car. Every business owner constantly gambles with his profits. Virtually everyone on the planet uses drugs. If a person is taking pain pills, will they miss out on entering the kingdom? The other words, I would say, you may be completely misdefining. Fornication, for example, seems to mean 'prostitution' in the bible; and I'm not sure if that means, prostitution plain and simple, or, temple prostitution.

As for Eve recounting what God said in regards to the Commandment:
There is no indication that God did not specifically say

You mean except for the fact that God did not specifically say it? Is there no indication that the Pharisees 'touch not' commandment was not given by God? Do you not think it's relevant that Jesus was chiding them for adding TOUCH NOT to their expansion of command? The same words Eve used?