Do the Saints talk back?

[Presentist]

There is a difference between having a patron Saint and any Saint interceding for us in Heaven.

Are you saying that there is a difference between having a patron Saint in Heaven intercede for you versus a non-patron saint in Heaven intercede for you?

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[steve_bakr]

Are you saying that there is a difference between having a patron Saint in Heaven intercede for you versus a non-patron saint in Heaven intercede for you?

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I Patron Saint, I think, is one that you feel a personal affinity for, and whose work on earth you love and admire. But sometimes Saints will be named as Patrons of certain things. For example, I think St. Jude is the Patron Saint of lost causes and St. Christopher of travelers.

 

[Presentist]

I think St. Jude is the Patron Saint of lost causes and St. Christopher of travelers.

Will you have an equally safe travel if you pray to St. Jude for your trip instead of praying to St. Christopher?

In other words, is there a benefit (a more likely positive outcome) in praying to the patron saint of your activity, profession, locality, etc. as opposed to praying to just any saint?

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[LOCO]

Will you have an equally safe travel if you pray to St. Jude for your trip instead of praying to St. Christopher?

In other words, is there a benefit (a more likely positive outcome) in praying to the patron saint of your activity, profession, locality, etc. as opposed to praying to just any saint?

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Depends, if I was travelling during a hurricane I'd pray to God and also ask both Sts Jude and Christopher to pray for me. We believe those Saints who are in Heaven are still are involved in their particular ''skill' whilst on earth and have a special infinity with it...e.g. St Monica (mother of St Augustine) prayed for years, constantly for the conversion of her son who was a philanderer. He eventually converted. She is the Patron Saint of Conversion, we trust she will pray ceaselessy for someone who we want to convert.

 

[Presentist]

St Monica (mother of St Augustine) prayed for years, constantly for the conversion of her son who was a philanderer. He eventually converted. She is the Patron Saint of Conversion, we trust she will pray ceaselessy for someone who we want to convert.

Is it any better to pray to St. Monica than to any other mother who prayed for their child that converted? There must be millions of those.

It would seem that all of those mothers are equally "skilled". Why pray to St. Monica?

In fact, it would seem that a mother who only had to pray once for their child (who then converted) would be "more skilled" than the mother that took years of prayers before God responded and converted their child.

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[LOCO]

Is it any better to pray to St. Monica than to any other mother who prayed for their child that converted? There must be millions of those.

It would seem that all of those mothers are equally "skilled". Why pray to St. Monica?

In fact, it would seem that a mother who only had to pray once for their child (who then converted) would be "more skilled" than the mother that took years of prayers before God responded and converted their child.

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There is a clearly defined process that the Church follows to ensure that not just anybody gets Sainthood. It can sometimes take up to 50 years to get canonised a Saint.

St Monica led a particularly pious and holy life. Praying for the conversion of her son was just one aspect of it.

I am certain St Monica is in Heaven, I cannot say the same for these other mothers. How am I certain, because I believe that the Catholic Church is the one that Jesus started and it cannot teach false Doctrine. Jesus said he would never abandon his Church.

The difference between St Monica and earthly mothers is that earthly mothers still sin and they are not in the direct presence of God. St Monica doesn't sin anymore and she is cleansed and in the direct presence of God therefore her prayers are more efficacious.

 

[Presentist]

The difference between St Monica and earthly mothers is that earthly mothers still sin and they are not in the direct presence of God. St Monica doesn't sin anymore and she is cleansed and in the direct presence of God therefore her prayers are more efficacious.

I am not talking about earthly mothers. I am asking why not pray to one of the other millions of mothers in Heaven who while on earth prayed for their child to be converted (and the child was converted)?

And, why not pray to a mother in Heaven who only had to pray once for the convertion of her child in order for God to answer her prayer, instead of praying to a mother who required much prayer before God answered her prayer?

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[steve_bakr]

I am not talking about earthly mothers. I am asking why not pray to one of the other millions of mothers in Heaven who while on earth prayed for their child to be converted (and the child was converted)?

And, why not pray to a mother in Heaven who only had to pray once for the convertion of her child in order for God to answer her prayer, instead of praying to a mother who required much prayer before God answered her prayer?

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It is Catholic tradition to pray to Saints that are canonized by the Church.

 

[Presentist]

It is Catholic tradition to pray to Saints that are canonized by the Church.

I understant the Catholic idea that we can ask Saints in Heaven to pray for us because we would ask Christians on earth to pray for us.

But what is the reason to only pray to certain Saints in Heaven. We do not only ask certain Christians on earth to pray for us.

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[Thekla]

I understant the Catholic idea that we can ask Saints in Heaven to pray for us because we would ask Christians on earth to pray for us.

But what is the reason to only pray to certain Saints in Heaven. We do not only ask certain Christians on earth to pray for us.

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Really ?

Some Christians seek out those who have an especially close walk with God to ask for their advice and prayers.

Sometimes God gives direction on whom to ask for prayer.

 

[Presentist]

Some Christians seek out those who have an especially close walk with God to ask for their advice and prayers.

Are you saying that you do not make general requests for prayer? Rather, that you hand-pick who you want to pray for you?

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[Thekla]

Are you saying that you do not make general requests for prayer? Rather, that you hand-pick who you want to pray for you?

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Are you denying that God sends persons to those who can help them ?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Is it any better to pray to St. Monica than to any other mother who prayed for their child that converted? There must be millions of those.

St Monica is known to us because of tradition. The millions of "others" are not know to us all, but am sure if someone was asking their mother in Heaven to pray for them, her prayer would be just as effectual.

It would seem that all of those mothers are equally "skilled". Why pray to St. Monica?

Assuming all "those mothers" are in Heaven, then their prayers for us would indeed be "skilled". But how would we know about "all of those mothers"? Generally we all ask people to pray for us that we know about, people we know or at least are acquainted with somehow.
Having said that there is also something to be said for asking people we know and asking someone who obviously would have a special place in Heaven. While I would like to think of my mother as deserving a special place, am not prepared to say hers would be as special as others. Nonetheless I would ask her to pray for me.

In fact, it would seem that a mother who only had to pray once for their child (who then converted) would be "more skilled" than the mother that took years of prayers before God responded and converted their child.
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if am being asked to make such a determination one would have to place oneself in God's shoes or assume God ways to be the same as one's own. Am afraid I do not see God or myself that way.

But as the topic is broached, for Catholics the Mass frequently includes prayers acknowledging "all saints" in Heaven, thanking God for their {"all saints" in Heaven that is) for interceding on our behalf, helping us and asking them to join us in glorifying God.

So from that aspect and if one were truly concerned about their exclusion (rather than simply goading/baiting) I would say "all those mothers" are indeed included 24 hours a day, 365 days a year in Church Masses all over the world. If one were truly concerned that is.

 

[LOCO]

I am not talking about earthly mothers. I am asking why not pray to one of the other millions of mothers in Heaven who while on earth prayed for their child to be converted (and the child was converted)?

And, why not pray to a mother in Heaven who only had to pray once for the convertion of her child in order for God to answer her prayer, instead of praying to a mother who required much prayer before God answered her prayer?

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Which mothers would that be? Do you have a name of someone who you are sure led a holy and pious life and performed miracles by the power of Christ. So strong a faith that were she Catholic we would've considered her for Sainthood?

As previously stated there is a process for Sainthood, not all dead Christians achieve Sainthood.

They must meet all the following requirements:

- Have 2 documented miracles attributed to them. For example St Vincent Ferrer raised more than 28 people from the dead (dead for more than 3days). Documents from religious and non-religious doctors, eyewitnesses, psychologists etc are kept at the Vatican.

- The saint must have been dead for more than five years to allow greater balance and objectivity in evaluating the case and to let the emotions of the moment dissipate.

- Supporting documentation is collected such as eyewitness statements, psychological and psychiatric reports. These come from non-religious and religious people.

- A diocesan investigation is processed at the local level.

- A thorough canonical investigation is launched at the
Vatican level.

- The Pope makes an 'infallible' statement that this Christian is worthy of the title Saint in Heaven.

The entire process can take anywhere from 6-50 years.

 

[Presentist]

not all dead Christians achieve Sainthood

Are you saying that the word "saints" in Revelation does not refer to all Christians?

For example...

Revelation 5:8 -- And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

P.S. What scripture passage makes you think that "not all dead Christians achieve Sainthood?"

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[Presentist]

I would say "all those mothers" are indeed included 24 hours a day, 365 days a year in Church Masses all over the world.

I grew up in the Philippines where it was common for someone to have their vehicle adorned with numerous statues. But they always seemed to be statues of the same "patron" saints.

Are you saying that they could just as well have a statue of any mother, or any deceased christian in Heaven?

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[Tzaousios]

I grew up in the Philippines where it was common for someone to have their vehicle adorned with numerous statues. But they always seemed to be statues of the same "patron" saints.

Are you saying that they could just as well have a statue of any mother, or any deceased christian in Heaven?

It appears that your hatred for Catholicism stems more from a cultural aversion more than any honest theological or Biblical arguments. Perhaps you revealed a bit too much in this post?

 

[Presentist]

It appears that your hatred for Catholicism stems more from a cultural aversion more than any honest theological or Biblical arguments.

It is not a "hatred." It is probably similar to your feelings towards Mormons, etc. You just think they are "wrong."

Growing up in the Philippines, when I would read the Bible about the disciples and Christians in the beginning of the Church, and then saw the Catholic processions with young men whipping themselves to make them bleed, and saw (on TV) the devout crucifying themselves (just short of death), and many other strange "traditions" (with no biblical support whatsoever), I had to come to the conclusion that they were "wrong."

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[steve_bakr]

It is not a "hatred." It is probably similar to your feelings towards Mormons, etc. You just think they are "wrong."

Growing up in the Philippines, when I would read the Bible about the disciples and Christians in the beginning of the Church, and then saw the Catholic processions with young men whipping themselves to make them bleed, and saw (on TV) the devout crucifying themselves (just short of death), and many other strange "traditions" (with no biblical support whatsoever), I had to come to the conclusion that they were "wrong."

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And yet, more humility and asceticism is much needed in the west, don't you think?

 

[Presentist]

And yet, more humility and asceticism is much needed in the west, don't you think?

True. And "the west" includes the Vatican.

How humble can you be if you claim "infallibility."

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