Do religion and science attempt to show the same thing?

[dms1972]

dms1972 said: ↑
Would you care to give an example of each sort of question?

Seeing as you brought it up... why don't you give an example of both and use those examples to answer his question.......

Well there are reasons for asking questions other than winning an argument.

The discussion is only for clarity.

 

[dms1972]

Jesus never said He was God.
He said...make your own observations.

Ok, but he said things about himself, that left only three options. Either he was madman, or very bad man, or he was God.

 

[bhsmte]

dms1972 said: ↑
Would you care to give an example of each sort of question?



Well there are reasons for asking questions other than winning an argument.

The discussion is only for clarity.

I am confused. You are the one that brought the issue up, so is there a reason you can not provide examples?

 

[dms1972]

We know the Earth exists, we know it wasn't as Genesis describes it.

Its impossible to carry on a discussion when people can distinguish poetry and scientific descriptions of processes. I know this is in part due to 24 hour day creationists, but as you know not every holds that interpretation, any more than every atheist holds steady state theory. Do you enjoy people discussing with you as though you hold scientific theories which you don't?

 

[dms1972]

I am confused. You are the one that brought the issue up, so is there a reason you can not provide examples?

I want to see what your thinking is.

"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

"How did life reach its current complexity?"

I don't know if those are good examples but there they are.

Also its seems to me that if there is a God, He is involved.

Science generally assumed in its early days that there was.

As regard the big questions like evolution versus intelligent design - all I can say is I don't know the answers. Both have some explanatory power.

Whats the question we are talking about most on these forums "is God, the christian God?"

 

[bhsmte]

I want to see what your thinking is.

As regard the big questions like evolution versus intelligent design - all I can say is I don't know the answers. Both have some explanatory power.

Whats the question we are talking about most on these forums "is God, the christian God?"

You brought up; why and how questions.

I asked you to give examples of each and what your method was to determine accurate answers.

Is this something you can do, or not?

 

[essentialsaltes]

I came across this insight the other day - people will pray whether they know for sure there is a God or not, just as a man stranded with a broken leg in the Alps will cry out "Help" whether or not he knows there is someone who will come to rescue him. Even if he thinks its likely there is not anyon, will he not still shout?

Some people are desperate enough to grasp at straws, yes.

 

[dms1972]

Actually it seems to me a very sensible thing to do to keep calling for "help", I don't think it would be grasping at straws at all.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'm neither desperate, nor praying to any imaginary beings, so... no.

 

[dms1972]

You don't know that there is not a God

 

[dms1972]

You brought up; why and how questions.

I asked you to give examples of each and what your method was to determine accurate answers.

Is this something you can do, or not?

I have given you both now, I wanted to see what way you used the terms yourself that was all. And the example of prayer - every scientist does something akin to this. They have to commit themselves at some point in their investigations to find out if they are right or wrong.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You don't know that there is not a God

So what? Maybe you are unfamiliar with what 'grasping at straws' means?

 

[dms1972]

No I know. And i don't think calling for "help" need be "grasping at straws". For there are many instances of people being heard, helped, rescued in response to sending out distress calls. And there are people on this site who will tell you they sought God for help, and found Him to be there.

Someone may feel they are "grasping at straws" , but that need not be the case neccesarily. The outcome is what matters.

 

[essentialsaltes]

No I know. And i don't think calling for "help" need be "grasping at straws". For there are many instances of people being heard, helped, rescued in response to sending out distress calls. Your comment is prejudicial of the outcome.

You're the one who said it was 'unlikely' that there was any help out there. Anyway, it is not 'grasping at straws' to eschew a probably futile effort. The probably futile effort is the 'grasping at straws'. Not doing it is the opposite of grasping at straws.

Anyway, trying to pull this back on topic, if "there are many instances of people being heard, helped, rescued in response to sending out distress calls," then one might expect that intercessory prayer would have empirical effects on, say, medical outcomes. Large scientific studies have been carried out, and "the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings". Praying and medical outcomes are observable. There doesn't seem to be any link between them. These studies do not comment on any things that may or may not be observable.

 

[dms1972]

You're the one who said it was 'unlikely' that there was any help out there.

No that seems to be what atheists are saying. I was saying many people with that perception of the circumstances would still call for help. I never said that that is the state of affairs we are in.

 

[dms1972]

Large scientific studies have been carried out, and "the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings".

I'll look at the article in more detail later, but at a glance three of the four studies mentioned found beneficial findings.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'll look at the article in more detail later, but at a glance three of the four studies mentioned found beneficial findings.

Another exercise in grasping at straws.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Its a matter of faith or doubt. Science is based on doubt (not necessarily doubt that there is a God - for many early scientist firmly believed their is), religion on faith. You can't use science to answer a religious question. (Disagree with me here if you want, I certainly don't want people taking anything I say as infallible or unquestionable and following it.)

There are two sorts of questions (actually there are more than two), both equally valid, and important.

"Why?" questions

and

"How?" questions

A "why" question, cannot be answered with a "how" answer!

I think people sometimes confuse the words "how" and "why".

Sometimes, the problem is that someone is asking a "why" question to begin with...

Merely by asking "why" one is assuming that an answer for "why" exists. That isn't necessarily the case.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I came across this insight the other day - people will pray whether they know for sure there is a God or not, just as a man stranded with a broken leg in the Alps will cry out "Help" whether or not he knows there is someone who will come to rescue him. Even if he thinks its likely there is not anyon, will he not still shout?

What matters? That he is shouting when there is no one there?, or that he continues to cry out. Will he say to himself "I'll stay silent cause there might not be anyone near, and I'd be stupid to be shouting out" How will he increase his chances of knowing he is right, or wrong? By philosophical speculation, or shouting "Help"

Would staying silent increase or decrease his chances of finding out? If he stay silent and no one came would it prove there had been no one there?

Reminds me of a documentary that I saw on Netflix once called Touching the Void. It's about a couple of mountain climbers who go up this huge peak in the Andes. On their way down, one breaks his leg badly and a blizzard hits them. The man with the broken leg gets separated from his climbing partner, falls down some huge crevice and is left for dead.

He starts crying to himself, calling himself stupid, acting as he put it "childish". Then he snaps out of it and starts working towards getting himself out of there on his own, on his badly broken leg. He mentioned very casually that he was an atheist and that he had always wondered if he would pray to god in such a situation as he was in. He didn't. Instead, he puts his mind towards one small goal at a time and slowly makes his way off the mountain.

Not because he had any hope of survival, mind you, but because he wanted his body to be found. He knew if his partner had made it down, he wouldn't wait. He was left for dead and they didn't bring much food to the camp. As it turns out his partner did wait because he was so overwhelmed with grief and he didn't want to return home and tell everyone what happened. It took the man with the broken leg something like 4 days to crawl off that mountain and he was nearly dead when he made it. He had soiled himself and wanted to change his clothes and his partner told him he burned his clothes as a token of a small memorial lol.

The point being that yes, there is an advantage to not crying out. Only by accepting the reality of his situation was he able to carry on. No one was coming to save him....he had to save himself. Sitting there shouting to god or anyone for help wouldn't do a thing. In the end, he did it for himself.

Great documentary, I'd highly recommend it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're the one who said it was 'unlikely' that there was any help out there. Anyway, it is not 'grasping at straws' to eschew a probably futile effort. The probably futile effort is the 'grasping at straws'. Not doing it is the opposite of grasping at straws.

Anyway, trying to pull this back on topic, if "there are many instances of people being heard, helped, rescued in response to sending out distress calls," then one might expect that intercessory prayer would have empirical effects on, say, medical outcomes. Large scientific studies have been carried out, and "the most methodologically rigorous studies failed to produce significant findings". Praying and medical outcomes are observable. There doesn't seem to be any link between them. These studies do not comment on any things that may or may not be observable.

If I remember correctly, there was one link found in the group that was being prayed for and knew they were being prayed for in that their recovery was slower across the board. It appeared that the expectations of recovery that resulted from being prayed for caused stress in the patients and subsequently delayed recovery.