Do people still think Christ intended legalism?

[Suggestion Box]

A woman at work the other day was telling me how her grandma told her she was going to hell for getting a divorce. Another coworker responded about how religions are so silly. He said something like 'you don't have to explain to me how Christianity works', implying that he knows what he's talking about, and that this grandma somehow represented Christ in her statement.

It seems mainstream views on Christianity always come with a lesson on legalism. Christian ethics comes with a lesson on law. You have your Pope and your politics behind religion. Everyone seems to think that Christianity is somehow restricting us from happiness or enslaving us to 'the rules'.

I've seen a lot of atheists/agnostics what have you with quotes up their sleeves about religion and all its constraints and rules causing pain and misery throughout the world. And it's true that there is a lot of religion-based pain and misery going on (side note-we tend to see all the bad and none of the good if we watch the news). Most of it is because of this legalistic attitude - some sort of obligation to use authority and power to restrict people, or bring restrictions on oneself despite feelings that you'd be happier if you didn't.

My reason for this post <staff edit> is that I can't <staff edit> believe people still think this! The gospel doesn't even support legalism. Paul rants for chapter upon chapter in the new testament about how 'the law' is not in charge. Religious leaders hated Jesus! If you read the gospel for more than a second you know it's about forgiveness. warnings, yes, about the negative natural consequences of sins. but sinning is not gonna send you to hell, and you can't avoid sinning based on will alone. Christ didn't come with a set of rules, nor is 'following the rules' at all the focus of our faith. it's a side effect for goodness sake.

 

[Supernaut]

I definately vote NO on this one. Christ brought spirituality, NOT religion. Religion is man made garbage. Christ taught us that our own spirituality is very much individual and not some massive all encompassing one world religion. He railed against religion and law.

 

[Penumbra]

It seems that Jesus in his teachings wanted people to follow a streamlined version of the law as opposed to worrying about the details and going offtrack like that. He is quoted as having said that not one letter of the law will disappear, but also routinely ignored the law and instead did what was right, like working on the sabbath to help someone, eating what was considered unclean because he knows it doesn't really matter, and so forth. He summed up all the teachings of the previous religion by saying to love your neighbor and to love his god. He did still have a pretty black and white notion about what was right and what was wrong and what is rewarded and what is punished, holding to the concept of sin when he forgave people and told them to "sin no more".

The religion that was built around those teachings, however, seems very legalistic to me. It's almost like a lawyer finding a loophole in a law and making you sign a contract for something. It's like, there is this law that by definition nobody can uphold, so they're all damned, but because of a blood sacrifice they can be forgiven on the condition that they believe this blood sacrifice occurred and are nice.

-Lyn

 

[annrobert]

I do not think Jesus intended legalism at all.
I think legalism puts chains on people and fears,or alternatively those who think they are really good at the laws self righteousness.
I do not think Jesus wanted us chained with fears or self righteousness,He wanted us free.
To come to Him and believe in Him and abide in Him.

Christ didn't come with a set of rules, nor is 'following the rules' at all the focus of our faith. it's a side effect for goodness sake.

I agree with this
If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
If we abide in Jesus we will bear fruit.

 

[ebia]

A woman at work the other day was telling me how her grandma told her she was going to hell for getting a divorce. Another coworker responded about how religions are so silly. He said something like 'you don't have to explain to me how Christianity works', implying that he knows what he's talking about, and that this grandma somehow represented Christ in her statement.

It seems mainstream views on Christianity always come with a lesson on legalism. Christian ethics comes with a lesson on law. You have your Pope and your politics behind religion. Everyone seems to think that Christianity is somehow restricting us from happiness or enslaving us to 'the rules'.

I've seen a lot of atheists/agnostics what have you with quotes up their sleeves about religion and all its constraints and rules causing pain and misery throughout the world. And it's true that there is a lot of religion-based pain and misery going on (side note-we tend to see all the bad and none of the good if we watch the news). Most of it is because of this legalistic attitude - some sort of obligation to use authority and power to restrict people, or bring restrictions on oneself despite feelings that you'd be happier if you didn't.

My reason for this post <staff edit> is that I can't <staff edit> believe people still think this! The gospel doesn't even support legalism. Paul rants for chapter upon chapter in the new testament about how 'the law' is not in charge. Religious leaders hated Jesus! If you read the gospel for more than a second you know it's about forgiveness. warnings, yes, about the negative natural consequences of sins. but sinning is not gonna send you to hell, and you can't avoid sinning based on will alone. Christ didn't come with a set of rules, nor is 'following the rules' at all the focus of our faith. it's a side effect for goodness sake.

The answer to the title question is no.

But the rest of your post seems to create a choice legalism and rule following against doing whatever.

It ain't about rules, but neither can it just be about forgiveness. Evil has to be named whereever it is found for transformation, restoration and reconcilliation to happen. Christians have a habit of lurching from one extreme to the other, between focusing on the problem to ignoring the problem. Niether position is tenable. Jesus invites us to acknowledge the problem and become part of the solution.

There is such a thing as legalism, and it is to be avoided, but there is as much tendency to see legalism where it is not - to see the the proper naming of evil as legalism - as there is to tendency to engage in legalism.

We need also to be a bit careful in how we take the critisisms of Jesus and Paul - they were critisizing a Pharisaic understanding that isn't remotely what most 21st century Christians think it was. One has to look outside the bible and our assumptions to find out what the Pharisees were actually trying to accomplish with their Law to avoid misunderstanding most of Jesus' and quite a few of Paul's comments on their way of doing things.

 

[Freodin]

The answer to the title question is no.

But the rest of your post seems to create a choice legalism and rule following against doing whatever.

It ain't about rules, but neither can it just be about forgiveness. Evil has to be named whereever it is found for transformation, restoration and reconcilliation to happen. Christians have a habit of lurching from one extreme to the other, between focusing on the problem to ignoring the problem. Niether position is tenable. Jesus invites us to acknowledge the problem and become part of the solution.

There is such a thing as legalism, and it is to be avoided, but there is as much tendency to see legalism where it is not - to see the the proper naming of evil as legalism - as there is to tendency to engage in legalism.

We need also to be a bit careful in how we take the critisisms of Jesus and Paul - they were critisizing a Pharisaic understanding that isn't remotely what most 21st century Christians think it was. One has to look outside the bible and our assumptions to find out what the Pharisees were actually trying to accomplish with their Law to avoid misunderstanding most of Jesus' and quite a few of Paul's comments on their way of doing things.

I agree.

Yet I think the parts I bolded need some more in-depth consideration.

Im my view, this is exactly what we are attempting to do here in this forum: properly name evil (and perhaps also good, of course). And I can´t see it as enough to simply state "the Bible says so" in order to properly find out what evil is. This is a form of legalism: following the letter, not the spirit.

 

[Sojourner1]

The problem with legalism is that it is focused on others rather then focused on oneself. The person who is legalistic can often be prideful as they feel that they are more holy and spiritual then other Christians based on what they do and do not do. Judging others according to their set of rules. It is not, however, legalistic to have an opinion on moral behaviors and actions and to voice that opinion in the right environment. If I believe that something is not in accordance with God's word then I can share that opinion if asked or if it is the topic of discussion. That is not legalism. Legalism is telling someone who has not asked your opinion on how they should behave based on what you believe.

 

[Beanieboy]

People post legalism here all the time, exactly like the Pharisees in the Gospel. I think that is the same way many Christians act.

The Pharisees were said to tie burdens upon the backs of their followers, meaning that they burdened people with rules and laws. They took a commandment (Thou shalt remember the Sabbath and keep it holy), and interpretted "work" as any physical exercise, so people were limited to exactly 2000 paces. Past that was a sin.

They accused Christ of working on the Sabbath when he healed someone. He basically said, "The law was made for man, not man for the law. If you do good on the Sabbath, even if it is "work", you aren't working. If you an emergency arises, take care of it, even if it is on the Sabbath." It's common sense.

Unfortunately, Christianity often teaches that God wants you to suffer to prove your love. It often misrepresents the bible, and suggests that being happy, having fun, enjoying yourself, is all evil, "pleasures of the flesh." This is not necessarily true.

The Pharisees also (Luke 11:42) pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Sound familiar? A Christian who will quote Leviticus, a book he doesn't follow, judge others rather than himself, leaving the 2x4 in his eye, because he wants you to follow the law, but won't himself. Oh, sure, he may follow, for example, "A man shall not lie with another man", but go out on Saturday, pick up a stranger, have sex with her, and think himself a moral judge of gay people. He will tell gay people to live a life of celibacy, but not live by example, as Christ did. Basically, he loves himself, and not his neighbor, but, as one Christian on this board said to me when I appealed that we try and love our neighbor as ourselves, and be a little more tactful and polite, said, "Why should I???"

Because it's a Commandment from Christ? Is that a good enough answer? It's the crux of Christ's message, so if one is saying, "Why should I?", they have missed the entire point. So what do they do? Just as the Pharisees did - accuse Christ of breaking the Law as proof of his "sin."

Such people will be judged on Judgement by the same measure. They probably shrug and say, "What do I care? I'm forgiven." However, the parable of the man who was forgiven a debt from his master, but refused to forgive a small debt from his servant, had his debt reinstated to a very angry master.

Living by legalism is intended for one thing only - to burden others, to try to condemn others in an effort to make oneself look better before the eyes of men. It doesn't serve God. It doesn't serve the neighbor, because it is rarely done in love or edification. It is self-serving. It shows no mercy, no compassion, no understanding. Verses are often pulled out of context, translation disregarded as if the bible were written in English originally, the point, such as the women about to be stoned, disregarded (mercy, Christ not condemning her) in place of GO AND SIN NO MORE!, putting their own brand of condemnation on someone that even Christ forgave, but they cannot. And why so much condemnation? That is something they have to search their own hearts for, because all of us have fallen short.

I can't imagine Christ walking up to the tax collectors and saying, "You guys are a bunch of thieves, and you prostitutes make me want to puke! You don't even deserve to eat with me!! Mind if I sit next to you and eat??"

Yet, we are being spiritual bouncers at the doors of our churches, because some of us are holy and deserving to be there. And this makes sense. It's like saying, "I'm really concerned about the reputation of having sick people at the doctor's office, so you are no longer welcome. Once you get well, please feel free to come see the doctor."

Nothing has changed since the Gospel account.

 

[Verv]

In Christianity, people are not condemned on legalistic basis.

You do something sinful and you are forgiven.

However, in Christianity, a Christian follows legalistic rules.

I am not talking about anything overly repressive or overly legalistic. I am talking about simple stuff:

- You do not become rich.
- You do not have sex outside of marriage.
- You do not be an alcoholic.
- You do not be vain, or a glutton. etc.

I hope people know what I mean.

A Christian who gets a marriage will only get divorced in an extremely terrible situation.

 

[Zebra1552]

God's not about rules, he's about relationships. Relationships take time and effort.