Do Not Bash Muslims

[setst777]

The forced marriage was a fabricated story according to family members and people who know her. Before seeking asylum she lived a comfortable upper-class life in kenya for more than a decade. She wasn't escaping anything. Instead, she lied to immigration officials in the Netherlands and was granted asylum which took a spot from someone who may have legitimately been escaping persecution. This dishonest act was a move that she describes as being clever and brilliant.


She was 7 years old when she left Somalia, so her life experiences as a Muslim in that country were quite limited. The schools she attended after leaving Somalia taught Wahhabism, the strict Saudi form of Islam, so this is where she learned about the teachings of this sect. Since there are no records of her ever criticizing Islam or writing any books on the subject prior to 9/11, it should be pretty obvious as to what motivated her to start doing so. She obviously jumped on the same bandwagon so many other "ex-Muslims" did following the events of 9/11 and started demonizing their former religion for profit.


Once again, she is describing Wahhabism, not the religion of Islam that the majority of the world's Muslims follow. Here are some Muslim women who strongly disagree with her.

After reading Wikipedia, and reviewing all sides of the issue, we cannot affirm she was lying about the arranged marriage. Of course her family is going to talk against her after Ms Ali left and sought asylum. We have to look at all the motives.

Ms Ali has far more experience and education regarding Islam than just attending classes. The issues she is fighting for regarding human rights and the women's rights under Sharia are common within Islamic countries and Muslim communities.

Her assessment of Islam in contrast to other religions is very accurate. For instance, we definitely see that Islam the religion is interconnected with politics, while Christianity is not. She is also correct in her assessment that Islam is focused on spreading Islam through various forms of Jihad, and takes any kind of criticism as a threat to be attacked. Christianity is not like that.

I see very little in her statements that would pertain only to Wahhabism.

 

[Joyousperson]

Once again, she is describing Wahhabism, not the religion of Islam that the majority of the world's Muslims follow. Here are some Muslim women who strongly disagree with her.

Despite my explanation you still insist on hasty generalization [another fallacy] and attribute to what Hirsi expressed as Wahhabism. That is intellectual indecency and insanity.

The point is what she mentioned about Islam in that video is Islamic and can be verified to the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah.

Show me the significant points where she mentioned about Islam therein is not representative of the essence of Islam [ after filtering through local variations, e.g. angels on the shoulders].

As for those women in the video who disagreed with her, they are ignorant of real Islam and are merely blabbering without any reference to the essence of Islam, i.e. the Quranic verses of Allah.

How can anyone be a real Muslim without respecting the words of Allah in the Quran [and supported by the Ahadith].

 

[setst777]

I will directly comment on the video you provided.

If those three women had not identified who they were attacking, I would think these women were attacking their own Prophet Muhammad and the Islamic religion.

They use phrases and words that actually describe what their own religion teaches about themselves. For instance:

'Women are irrational'
'no minds of their own'
'stupid'

And then they use words like

'stereotyped'
'erases our struggles'
'savage traditions'
'faceless'
'living through hostility, discrimination, and oppression'

as if Ms Ali was the cause of this.

Actually, it was THEIR OWN PROPHET - Muhammad - that taught Muslims about women in the way they described...

Regarding the phrase "faceless," isn't it Islam that wants women's faces covered and their entire bodies from head to toe so they remain faceless and unnoticed?

Women are treated savagely...

Reliance of the Traveller - a SUNNI SHARIA FIGH Manual
e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (this is called Hufaad).” The Western version of Reliance of the Traveller uses taqyah to cover up the reality of a women's obligatory circumcision by making it a appear as if only the outer part of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is cut out.

Qur'an 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Muhammad stereotyped women as being deficient of mind - stupid.

Sahih al-Bukhari 2658—The Prophet said: "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

Most Muslim women are hell-bound

Sahih al-Bukhari 1052—The Prophet said: ". . . I saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked: "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet said: "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said: "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds."

Muslim women lack common sense...
The testimony of a women is half that of a man...

Sahih Muslim 142—[Muhammad said]: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk are in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with our religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man; that is a proof of the lack of common sense.

Unless the Muslim woman is very sick, she must allow her husband to have sex with her anytime and anyway he likes...

Qur'an 2:223 Your women are your fields, so plow into your fields whichever way you like.

RAPE

If a Muslim woman is raped, she must have four male witnesses to testify in her favor at court. If she lacks enough evidence, she is automatically accused of fornication or adultery and is either whipped (for the former) or stoned to death (for the latter).

Not to mention that Muhammad commanded that Muslim men may divorce a wife anytime he likes.

Also, any previous marriages of women taken as slaves are annulled and may be raped by their capture anytime they want, or sell them.

Muhammad also approved of child girl rape and child girl marriage even before the age of menstruation to old men...

Imam Bukhari in his book of Tafsir and hadith collections:
CCCLXXXIV: The Tafsir of Surat at-Talaq
Mujahid said that "if you have any doubt" (V.65:4) means if you do not know whether she menstruates or not. Those who do not longer menstruate and those who have not yet menstruated, their 'idda is three months.
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Chapter 68: Book of Tafsir
(39) CHAPTER. Giving one's young children in marriage (is permissible).
By virtue of the Statement of Allah : "...and for those who have no (monthly) courses (i.e. they are still immature).. (V.65:4) And the 'Idda for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).

5133. Narrated 'Aishah; that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
"The Translation of the Meanings of Sahih Al-Bukhari" (archived)
Al-Bukhari (au.), Muhammad M. Khan (tr.), Dar-us-Salam Publications, vol. 7, book 67, ch. 39, p. 57, ISBN 9960-717-38-0, June 1, 1997.
From Sahih Muslim:

Chapter 10: It is permissible for the father to give the hand of his daughter in marriage even when she is not fully grown up.
Capter heading for Sahih Muslim 8:3309 to Sahih Muslim 8:3311

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi
Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.
Commentary on Qur'an Chapter 65:4
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an

'Ibn Kathir
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses (Qur'an 65:4)
Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Al-Tabari
The interpretation of the verse "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise". He said: The same applies to the 'idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.
Tafsir Al-Tabari, 14/142

There is much more I could write on how Prophet Muhammad and the Muslim men treated women unjustly and savagely, like women do have to have permission to go anywhere without their husband or guardian, and in many societies and many other such controls on their activities, but this was supplied to show that these three women in the video are total liars - using Taqyah to deceive the West.

Where I live, I see Muslim women dressed from head to toe in black or dark colors even in 80 and 98 degree whether. I don't think it matters how hot it gets outside, the Muslim women must cover up everything except for their hands and eyes. But where I live, there faces are uncovered, probably because of US laws.

Yet, these three women accuse Ms Ali of the very things that their own Prophet Muhammad commanded regarding women.

Regarding stereotypes, these three women are quick to call other colonizers and accuse of Genocide, but forget to mention that Islam conquered and colonized 2/3 of Europe, enslaved, pillaged, raped, destroyed, murdered, subdued hundreds of millions of people - wiping out many civilizations and cultures - all in the name of Allah by the command of Allah and His Messenger.

These three women sure live up to Muhammad's description of Muslim women as lacking common sense, deficient in mind, and talkers causing trouble, ungrateful - their abode is hell.

Joseph you are so naive and gullible when it comes to Islam. Yet, this is not totally your fault, rather, you are just fulfilling prophecy - in the last days the gullible will be deceived by the enemy (anti-Christ) to the destruction of many.

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it

Matthew 24:24
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

If you attempt to counter that this is Wahhabism, remember most of this is found in the Sharia figh of all four Schools of Sunni. And the Qur'an itself cannot be abrogated, for it is Allah's Eternal Words given as guidance and instruction.

Also, tell me when the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira were abrogated by Allah?

Sharia. US laws are man-made; while Sharia law is sacred and comes from the only legitimate god, Allah.
SHARIA: Sharia is based on the principles found in the Koran and other Islamic religious/political texts.

There are no common principles between American law and Sharia. Under Sharia law:
• There is no freedom of religion
• There is no freedom of speech
• There is no freedom of thought
• There is no freedom of artistic expression
• There is no freedom of the press
• There is no equality of peoples—a non-Muslim, a Kafir, is never equal to a Muslim
• There is no equal protection under Sharia for different classes of people. Justice is dualistic, with one set of laws for Muslim males and different laws for women and non-Muslims.
• There are no equal rights for women
• Women can be beaten
• A non-Muslim cannot bear arms
• There is no democracy, since democracy means that a non-Muslim is equal to a Muslim
• Our Constitution is a man-made document of ignorance, jahiliyah, that must submit to Sharia
• Non-Muslims are dhimmis, second-class subjects
• All governments must be ruled by Sharia law
• Unlike common law, Sharia is not interpretive, nor can it be changed
• There is no Golden Rule

Here are current and historical events in America that are driven by Sharia law:
• On September 11, 2001 jihadists attacked and destroyed the World Trade Center in New York. This atrocity was in compliance with the doctrine of jihad found in the Sharia law. The attack was a political action motivated by a religious mandate for endless jihad.
• Textbooks in America must be approved by Islamic groups. This is in accordance with Sharia law.
• American employers and schools are met with demands for time and space to do Islamic prayer. These demands are based on Sharia law.
• The American banking system is becoming Islamicized with Sharia financing. The banking system is becoming Sharia compliant in financial law, but is ignorant about the totality of Sharia law.
• Universities are asked to provide sexually segregated swimming pools and other athletic facilities for Muslim women.
• Hospitals are being sued for not providing Sharia compliant treatment.
• College courses at the college level do not use critical thinking regarding the history and doctrine of Islam. Under Sharia nothing about Islam may be criticized.
• American prisons are a stronghold of Islamic proselytizing and jihadi recruitment.
• Workplaces are being made Islamic worship sites through special rooms and time off to pray. This is in accordance to Sharia law.
• Islamic refugees bring all of their wives for welfare and medical treatment to America. American authorities will not act—even when presented with evidence. Polygamy is included in the Sharia.
• Wars were fought in Iraq and Afghanistan to implement constitutions whose first article is the supremacy of Sharia law.
https://www.politicalislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PDF-Look-Inside/Sharia_Non-Muslim_look_inside.pdf

 

[Joyousperson]

I will directly comment on the video you provided.

If those three women had not identified who they were attacking, I would think these women were attacking their own Prophet Muhammad and the Islamic religion.

They use phrases and words that actually describe what their own religion teaches about themselves. For instance:

'Women are irrational'
'no minds of their own'
'stupid'

And then they use words like

'stereotyped'
'erases our struggles'
'savage traditions'
'faceless'
'living through hostility, discrimination, and oppression'

as if Ms Ali was the cause of this.

Actually, it was THEIR OWN PROPHET - Muhammad - that taught Muslims about women in the way they described...

Regarding the phrase "faceless," isn't it Islam that wants women's faces covered and their entire bodies from head to toe so they remain faceless and unnoticed?

Women are treated savagely...

Reliance of the Traveller - a SUNNI SHARIA FIGH Manual
e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (this is called Hufaad).” The Western version of Reliance of the Traveller uses taqyah to cover up the reality of a women's obligatory circumcision by making it a appear as if only the outer part of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is cut out.

Qur'an 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

Muhammad stereotyped women as being deficient of mind - stupid.

Sahih al-Bukhari 2658—The Prophet said: "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

Most Muslim women are hell-bound

Sahih al-Bukhari 1052—The Prophet said: ". . . I saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked: "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet said: "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said: "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds."

Muslim women lack common sense...
The testimony of a women is half that of a man...

Sahih Muslim 142—[Muhammad said]: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk are in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with our religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man; that is a proof of the lack of common sense.

Unless the Muslim woman is very sick, she must allow her husband to have sex with her anytime and anyway he likes...

Qur'an 2:223 Your women are your fields, so plow into your fields whichever way you like.

RAPE

If a Muslim woman is raped, she must have four male witnesses to testify in her favor at court. If she lacks enough evidence, she is automatically accused of fornication or adultery and is either whipped (for the former) or stoned to death (for the latter).

Not to mention that Muhammad commanded that Muslim men may divorce a wife anytime he likes.

Also, any previous marriages of women taken as slaves are annulled and may be raped by their capture anytime they want, or sell them.

Muhammad also approved of child girl rape and child girl marriage even before the age of menstruation to old men...

Imam Bukhari in his book of Tafsir and hadith collections:
CCCLXXXIV: The Tafsir of Surat at-Talaq
Mujahid said that "if you have any doubt" (V.65:4) means if you do not know whether she menstruates or not. Those who do not longer menstruate and those who have not yet menstruated, their 'idda is three months.
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Chapter 68: Book of Tafsir
(39) CHAPTER. Giving one's young children in marriage (is permissible).
By virtue of the Statement of Allah : "...and for those who have no (monthly) courses (i.e. they are still immature).. (V.65:4) And the 'Idda for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse).

5133. Narrated 'Aishah; that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
"The Translation of the Meanings of Sahih Al-Bukhari" (archived)
Al-Bukhari (au.), Muhammad M. Khan (tr.), Dar-us-Salam Publications, vol. 7, book 67, ch. 39, p. 57, ISBN 9960-717-38-0, June 1, 1997.
From Sahih Muslim:

Chapter 10: It is permissible for the father to give the hand of his daughter in marriage even when she is not fully grown up.
Capter heading for Sahih Muslim 8:3309 to Sahih Muslim 8:3311

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi
Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.
Commentary on Qur'an Chapter 65:4
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an

'Ibn Kathir
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses (Qur'an 65:4)
Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Al-Tabari
The interpretation of the verse "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise". He said: The same applies to the 'idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.
Tafsir Al-Tabari, 14/142

There is much more I could write on how Prophet Muhammad and the Muslim men treated women unjustly and savagely, like women do have to have permission to go anywhere without their husband or guardian, and in many societies and many other such controls on their activities, but this was supplied to show that these three women in the video are total liars - using Taqyah to deceive the West.

Where I live, I see Muslim women dressed from head to toe in black or dark colors even in 80 and 98 degree whether. I don't think it matters how hot it gets outside, the Muslim women must cover up everything except for their hands and eyes. But where I live, there faces are uncovered, probably because of US laws.

Yet, these three women accuse Ms Ali of the very things that their own Prophet Muhammad commanded regarding women.

Regarding stereotypes, these three women are quick to call other colonizers and accuse of Genocide, but forget to mention that Islam conquered and colonized 2/3 of Europe, enslaved, pillaged, raped, destroyed, murdered, subdued hundreds of millions of people - wiping out many civilizations and cultures - all in the name of Allah by the command of Allah and His Messenger.

These three women sure live up to Muhammad's description of Muslim women as lacking common sense, deficient in mind, and talkers causing trouble, ungrateful - their abode is hell.

Joseph you are so naive and gullible when it comes to Islam. Yet, this is not totally your fault, rather, you are just fulfilling prophecy - in the last days the gullible will be deceived by the enemy (anti-Christ) to the destruction of many.

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it

Matthew 24:24
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

If you attempt to counter that this is Wahhabism, remember most of this is found in the Sharia figh of all four Schools of Sunni. And the Qur'an itself cannot be abrogated, for it is Allah's Eternal Words given as guidance and instruction.

Also, tell me when the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira were abrogated by Allah?

Sharia. US laws are man-made; while Sharia law is sacred and comes from the only legitimate god, Allah.
SHARIA: Sharia is based on the principles found in the Koran and other Islamic religious/political texts.

There are no common principles between American law and Sharia. Under Sharia law:
• There is no freedom of religion
• There is no freedom of speech
• There is no freedom of thought
• There is no freedom of artistic expression
• There is no freedom of the press
• There is no equality of peoples—a non-Muslim, a Kafir, is never equal to a Muslim
• There is no equal protection under Sharia for different classes of people. Justice is dualistic, with one set of laws for Muslim males and different laws for women and non-Muslims.
• There are no equal rights for women
• Women can be beaten
• A non-Muslim cannot bear arms
• There is no democracy, since democracy means that a non-Muslim is equal to a Muslim
• Our Constitution is a man-made document of ignorance, jahiliyah, that must submit to Sharia
• Non-Muslims are dhimmis, second-class subjects
• All governments must be ruled by Sharia law
• Unlike common law, Sharia is not interpretive, nor can it be changed
• There is no Golden Rule

Here are current and historical events in America that are driven by Sharia law:
• On September 11, 2001 jihadists attacked and destroyed the World Trade Center in New York. This atrocity was in compliance with the doctrine of jihad found in the Sharia law. The attack was a political action motivated by a religious mandate for endless jihad.
• Textbooks in America must be approved by Islamic groups. This is in accordance with Sharia law.
• American employers and schools are met with demands for time and space to do Islamic prayer. These demands are based on Sharia law.
• The American banking system is becoming Islamicized with Sharia financing. The banking system is becoming Sharia compliant in financial law, but is ignorant about the totality of Sharia law.
• Universities are asked to provide sexually segregated swimming pools and other athletic facilities for Muslim women.
• Hospitals are being sued for not providing Sharia compliant treatment.
• College courses at the college level do not use critical thinking regarding the history and doctrine of Islam. Under Sharia nothing about Islam may be criticized.
• American prisons are a stronghold of Islamic proselytizing and jihadi recruitment.
• Workplaces are being made Islamic worship sites through special rooms and time off to pray. This is in accordance to Sharia law.
• Islamic refugees bring all of their wives for welfare and medical treatment to America. American authorities will not act—even when presented with evidence. Polygamy is included in the Sharia.
• Wars were fought in Iraq and Afghanistan to implement constitutions whose first article is the supremacy of Sharia law.
https://www.politicalislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PDF-Look-Inside/Sharia_Non-Muslim_look_inside.pdf

Wow! very intelligently countered;

Sets777 wrote:
"If those three women had not identified who they were attacking, I would think these women were attacking their own Prophet Muhammad and the Islamic religion."

They use phrases and words that actually describe what their own religion teaches about themselves. For instance:
...​

 

[Joyousperson]

Sets777,

JosephZ kept harping on the terrorist acts of SOME Muslims and attempt to dilute them with ALL other types of terrorist acts around the world or within US.

As I had stated, the concern with the evil of Islam is not just the terrorist acts but the whole gamut and range of terrible evil and violent acts compelled and inspired by the ideology of Islam.

You have linked a good listing below.
However, there are definitely more evil, terrible and violent acts that are compelled by the ideology of Islam.
I am trying to find a ready list of the whole gamut, range and all the terrible evil and violent acts driven by the ideology of Islam, so that I can throw them at JosephZ when he tries to deflect and limit the discussion to merely Islamic terrorism and contrast that will all types of terrorism.

Sets777 wrote and linked the following;
Here are current and historical events in America that are driven by Sharia law:
• On September 11, 2001 jihadists attacked and destroyed the World Trade Center in New York. This atrocity was in compliance with the doctrine of jihad found in the Sharia law. The attack was a political action motivated by a religious mandate for endless jihad.
• Textbooks in America must be approved by Islamic groups. This is in accordance with Sharia law.
• American employers and schools are met with demands for time and space to do Islamic prayer. These demands are based on Sharia law.
• The American banking system is becoming Islamicized with Sharia financing. The banking system is becoming Sharia compliant in financial law, but is ignorant about the totality of Sharia law.
• Universities are asked to provide sexually segregated swimming pools and other athletic facilities for Muslim women.
• Hospitals are being sued for not providing Sharia compliant treatment.
• College courses at the college level do not use critical thinking regarding the history and doctrine of Islam. Under Sharia nothing about Islam may be criticized.
• American prisons are a stronghold of Islamic proselytizing and jihadi recruitment.
• Workplaces are being made Islamic worship sites through special rooms and time off to pray. This is in accordance to Sharia law.
• Islamic refugees bring all of their wives for welfare and medical treatment to America. American authorities will not act—even when presented with evidence. Polygamy is included in the Sharia.
• Wars were fought in Iraq and Afghanistan to implement constitutions whose first article is the supremacy of Sharia law.
https://www.politicalislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PDF-Look-Inside/Sharia_Non-Muslim_look_inside.pdf​

 

[JosephZ]

I will directly comment on the video you provided. If those three women had not identified who they were attacking, I would think these women were attacking their own Prophet Muhammad and the Islamic religion.

There were six women in the video.

They use phrases and words that actually describe what their own religion teaches about themselves. For instance:

'Women are irrational'
'no minds of their own'
'stupid'

If Islam actually taught this, how do you explain so many women converting to Islam each year? In fact, women in the west and in Latin America are converting to Islam at rates of more than 2 to 1 over men.

And then they use words like
'stereotyped'
'erases our struggles'
'savage traditions'
'faceless'
'living through hostility, discrimination, and oppression'
as if Ms Ali was the cause of this.

She's not the cause of it, but she certainly contributes to it.

Regarding the phrase "faceless," isn't it Islam that wants women's faces covered and their entire bodies from head to toe so they remain faceless and unnoticed?

That's not taught in Islam. Dressing modestly yes, covering their entire bodies from head to toe? No.

Reliance of the Traveller - a SUNNI SHARIA FIGH Manual
e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (this is called Hufaad).” The Western version of Reliance of the Traveller uses taqyah to cover up the reality of a women's obligatory circumcision by making it a appear as if only the outer part of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is cut out.

I tried explaining to you earlier in the thread why you can not take the Reliance of the Traveler as gospel when it comes to Islamic law.

What's important to note is that Reliance of the Traveller is one single source on Islamic law out of literally hundreds, yet you are taking it as gospel.

Reliance of the Traveler is an abridged legal manual. It is not an easy book to read and it's not the definite or the final authority on Islamic law, nor is it recognized as such by Islamic scholars.

Have you ever been in a lawyers office? They have tons of books on their bookshelves to instruct them how laws were intended to be used, case studies, court rulings, etc. The reliance of the Traveler is just one book that Islamic legal scholars, attorneys, and judges use to help them on the subjects of law based on the history of Islam, the Qur'an, and the Hadiths. A non-Muslim reading this book without a solid background in Islamic studies and understanding of Islam will surely misinterpret what is written. How can a non-Muslim like yourself with no formal background in Islam, Islamic history, or law be expected to properly interpret everything written in an ancient 1200+ page Islamic law book?

I can't stress enough that it is only one book of many on Islamic law. What's more, it's only an abridged legal manual.

Female circumcision is not mentioned in the Qur'an nor does it have anything to do with Islam. It's a cultural practice and existed many centuries prior to the existence of Islam.

Most Muslim women are hell-bound
Sahih al-Bukhari 1052—The Prophet said: ". . . I saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked: "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet said: "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said: "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds."

Just because more women were seen in Hell doesn't mean that most women are going there. Whose to say there aren't twice as many women in paradise than there are in Hell? Or even three times as many?

If I went to a car show and told you that I saw mostly men in attendance, would you take that to mean that most men attend car shows? Of course not.

Muhammad stereotyped women as being deficient of mind - stupid.

That's your interpretation of that hadith, but keep in mind that not everyone is going to interpret it in the same way you do. It's also important to remember, as I have pointed out many times before, that putting things into textual and historical context are of upmost importance when interpreting religious texts.

Unless the Muslim woman is very sick, she must allow her husband to have sex with her anytime and anyway he likes...
Qur'an 2:223 Your women are your fields, so plow into your fields whichever way you like.

You have really butchered the meaning and intent of Qur'an 2:223. Since this forum is accessible to people of all ages, I will not go into detail as to what that verse is addressing (Hint: In addition to being about the purpose of sex with ones wife, it also has to do with sexual positions, the misconception of birth defects, and the prohibition of a certain sexual act).

If a Muslim woman is raped, she must have four male witnesses to testify in her favor at court.

Not true. If so, how do you explain this hadith?

When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (PBUH) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered [raped] her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: ‘That [man] did such and such to me.’ And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: ‘That man did such and such to me.’ They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her. She said: ‘Yes, this is he.’ Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (SWT). When he [the Prophet (PBUH)] was about to pass sentence, the man who [actually] had assaulted her stood up and said: ‘Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.’ He [the Prophet (PBUH)] said to her: ‘Go away, for Allah (SWT) has forgiven you [for mistakenly identifying the wrong man].’ But he told the man some good words [Abu Dawud said: meaning the man who was accidentally seized], and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: ‘Stone him to death.’ He also said: ‘He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.’ -- Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)' of Sunan Abu-Dawud -- 4366

A woman's testimony alone is enough in Islam when it comes to rape.

The four witnesses are needed to prove adultery not rape and they are needed when a woman is being accused, not a man. The whole purpose of having four witnesses is to protect a woman against false allegations and from men who may have the intent of destroying a woman's reputation or to seek revenge against them.

There is much more I could write on how Prophet Muhammad and the Muslim men treated women unjustly and savagely, like women do have to have permission to go anywhere without their husband or guardian, and in many societies and many other such controls on their activities, but this was supplied to show that these three women in the video are total liars - using Taqyah to deceive the West.

Wasn't it Hirsi Ali who deceived the west when she falsified her history and lied about being persecuted to gain asylum? Her deception also led to her getting a refugee grant to attend Leiden University and receive a degree. Her whole life and her resulting "success" is based on lies.

Once again, why would so many women be drawn it Islam if it taught the way you believe it does?

Where I live, I see Muslim women dressed from head to toe in black or dark colors even in 80 and 98 degree whether. I don't think it matters how hot it gets outside, the Muslim women must cover up everything except for their hands and eyes.

Here in the Philippines, and also Indonesia and Malaysia, I see women dressed the same way with many only showing their eyes. Not only are temperatures in the 90 to sometimes 100 degree plus range much of the year, but the humidity is often off the charts. Did you ever think to ask them why they dress the way they do when it's so hot? Believe it or not, going out on a 90 degree plus day in full sunlight in a loosely fitting black burka would make a woman feel cooler than wearing shorts and a tank top (There's a scientific explanation for why this is). This is something you can try yourself sometime. Find a black cotton sheet cut an opening for your eyes and stand outside on a hot sunny day for an hour. Do the same thing on another hot sunny day wearing a white t-shirt (or even no shirt) and a pair of shorts without a hat for the same amount of time. You will find that covering yourself with the black sheet is much more comfortable.

But back to the main point, you are incorrect to say that Muslim women must cover up everything except for their hands and eyes. If this were true, then you would see more than just a small minority of Muslim women doing this. Even among those who do, for most it's a matter of choice and not because they must.

Regarding stereotypes, these three women are quick to call other colonizers and accuse of Genocide, but forget to mention that Islam conquered and colonized 2/3 of Europe, enslaved, pillaged, raped, destroyed, murdered, subdued hundreds of millions of people - wiping out many civilizations and cultures - all in the name of Allah by the command of Allah and His Messenger.

Are you forgetting that Christian Europeans conquered 3/4ths of the world (Much more than Islam) enslaving, pillaging, raping, destroying, murdering, subduing hundreds of millions of people - wiping out many civilizations and cultures - all in the name of Divine Providence and Manifest Destiny? There was nothing wrong in what these women stated in that video.

Joseph you are so naive and gullible when it comes to Islam. Yet, this is not totally your fault, rather, you are just fulfilling prophecy - in the last days the gullible will be deceived by the enemy (anti-Christ) to the destruction of many.

I will ask you once again, aside from what you have learned from notorious anti-Islamic websites and shared here (Your last post is evidence of you doing this), what is your background in Islamic studies and your relationship with Muslims?

 

[JosephZ]

I am trying to find a ready list of the whole gamut, range and all the terrible evil and violent acts driven by the ideology of Islam, so that I can throw them at JosephZ when he tries to deflect and limit the discussion to merely Islamic terrorism and contrast that will all types of terrorism.

You and I have already discussed evil and violent acts outside of the realm of terrorism in other threads. Here are a couple of the responses I gave.

what we are seeing today with the rise in Islamic violence is a recent phenomenon. Prior to 9/11 terrorism in the name of Islam made up only a small percentage of the attacks worldwide (Around 10%). Today most attacks take place in Muslim majority countries where just twenty years ago most took place in majority Christian countries (See image below).

https://cidcm.umd.edu/sites/cidcm.umd.edu/files/exec_sum_2012.pdf

These thousands of attacks were being carried out by people who proclaim Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Muslim countries where most terrorism takes place today like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria rarely experienced terrorism prior to 9/11.

Let's look at the evil the is taking place today in Latin America.

• 51 Dead, 15 beheaded in Acapulco
• Gunmen in western Mexico have killed 12 policemen investigating the beheadings of 10 people.
• ELN Car bomb kills 20 in Columbia
• Latin America is the region with the most female murders on earth
• Mexican drug cartels are worse than ISIL

There is terrorism, beheadings, rape, oppression of women, slavery, and massacres taking place in these predominantly Christian countries. Murder rates are more than ten times higher in these countries than any Muslim country on the planet.

There is also a religious undertone to many of these atrocities taking place in this part of the world as many who carrying them out are followers of a perverted and growing sect of Catholicism.

Over the past 17 years veneration of a Mexican folk saint that personifies death has become the fastest-growing new religious movement in the West. At this point there are no systematic surveys of the precise number of Santa Muerte devotees, but based on 10 years of research in Mexico and the US, we estimate there are some 10 to 12 million followers, with a large majority in Mexico and a significant presence in the United States and Central America.

from the FBI:

Santa Muerte: Inspired and Ritualistic Killings

Historically, Muslim majority regions of the world have been more peaceful than non-Muslim. Europe has had a bloodier history than the Middle East. Violent crime rates are lower today in Muslim majority countries than Christian majority countries.

All the things you claim are unique to Islam have and continue to take place in other societies and religions. Violence, terrorism, forced conversions, etc...

Between 1970 and 2017 the Global terrorism Database lists 181,691 Terrorist Attacks worldwide. Between 1970 and 2010, 10% of those were carried out by Islamic extremists with the remaining 90% being carried out by communists, anarchists, fascists, etc..

When it comes to homicide rates, Muslim majority countries averages are much lower than that of most non-Muslim countries.

Muslim-majority countries average about 2 homicides per 100,000 people and Non-Muslim countries average about 8 per 100,000.

Here's a comparison between the countries with the largest Christian and Muslim populations.

United States: 5.35 per 100,000
Indonesia: 0.50 per 100,000

If you compare the murder rates between Muslim and Christian countries at this link List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia , you will find that Muslim majority countries come no where close to having homicide rates as high as some of the Christian countries in which many range in the 20 to 50+ per 100,000 range.

If you study history, you will find that Christian Europe has seen more conflict and bloodshed than the Middle East and North Africa in modern history.

There were Islamic wars of conquest, but they were no different from conquests from other cultures. Imperial expansionism and conquests came from the pagan Mongols; Christian explorers conquered lands in North and South America, the Caribbean, Africa, the Pacific Islands and Southeast Asia to establish new territories and Christianize the natives. The United States had it's orders to do the same under Manifest Destiny. So there was nothing unique about Islam in that department.

 

[Joyousperson]

You and I have already discussed evil and violent acts outside of the realm of terrorism in other threads. Here are a couple of the responses I gave.

Between 1970 and 2017 the Global terrorism Database lists 181,691 Terrorist Attacks worldwide. Between 1970 and 2010, 10% of those were carried out by Islamic extremists with the remaining 90% being carried out by communists, anarchists, fascists, etc..

When it comes to homicide rates, Muslim majority countries averages are much lower than that of most non-Muslim countries.

Muslim-majority countries average about 2 homicides per 100,000 people and Non-Muslim countries average about 8 per 100,000.

Here's a comparison between the countries with the largest Christian and Muslim populations.

United States: 5.35 per 100,000
Indonesia: 0.50 per 100,000

If you compare the murder rates between Muslim and Christian countries at this link List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia , you will find that Muslim majority countries come no where close to having homicide rates as high as some of the Christian countries in which many range in the 20 to 50+ per 100,000 range.

If you study history, you will find that Christian Europe has seen more conflict and bloodshed than the Middle East and North Africa in modern history.

There were Islamic wars of conquest, but they were no different from conquests from other cultures. Imperial expansionism and conquests came from the pagan Mongols; Christian explorers conquered lands in North and South America, the Caribbean, Africa, the Pacific Islands and Southeast Asia to establish new territories and Christianize the natives. The United States had it's orders to do the same under Manifest Destiny. So there was nothing unique about Islam in that department.

Nope you have not discussed in details the whole gamut and range of terrible evils and violent acts confined to those that are related to Islam which inspire SOME Muslims who are evil prone.

Note I had stated ALL evil and violent acts must be addressed by humanity, even if there is ONE evil and violent act only.

However to topic, this OP is specifically related to Islam-related evil and violent acts committed by SOME evil prone Muslims. It is undeniable there are tons [3400++ verses of contempt] of such terrible evil and violent acts.

As such we must confine ourselves to this specific issue of Islamic related evil and violent acts and to trace to their ultimate and proximate root causes. I have argued the ultimate and proximate root cause is traceable to the ideology of Islam as represented by the 6236 verses of the Quran.

Note the principles of effective Problem Solving Techniques is to analyze the problem to common factors and categories to break down and deal with them in smaller units rather the whole lot at one go.

What you are trying is to deflect and run away from tracing the above root causes by bringing in ALL types of terrorism and evil acts by other religions. This is off topic and it is dishonesty to insist to bring them in to blur the issue.

Note for other types of evil and violent acts we should deal with them on a category by category and to trace to their respective root causes.

Islamic related terror, evil and violent acts are very unique in that they are the only one that is sanctioned and condoned by a God [Allah] who compels believers to commit evil and violent acts to gain favor of salvation from Allah.

What made it worst is no one on Earth can judge against Allah's immutable command in the Quran. So those 'SOME' [from pool of 320 million] will continue to do their religious duty to please Allah that results to terrible evil and violent acts upon non-Muslims.

 

[Joyousperson]

Ref:

JosephZ wrote:
If Islam actually taught this, how do you explain so many women converting to Islam each year? In fact, women in the west and in Latin America are converting to Islam at rates of more than 2 to 1 over men.

Once again, why would so many women be drawn it Islam if it taught the way you believe it does?
​

What you seem to be ignorant of are the Principles of the Normal Distribution, i.e. the Bell Curve.
Normal distribution - Wikipedia

The majority of human attributes [physical and mental] fall within the above principles.
Take for example human height [physical], 20% [percentile] of all humans will be lower than say 4 feet on one end and 20% are above 6 feet with 60% in between.

At present there are 1.5 billion Muslims and thereabout half are females. The majority of the female Muslims are born into the religion.

From the above, thus there are 5.5 billion non-Muslims.
Say, 50% are female, i.e. 2.75 billion.
If we take the mental traits of these females a certain percentile will comprise those with low self-esteem, those ignorant of full ideology of Islam, the psychological insecure, the perverted, the irrational, the very desperate and the likes.
If we take the percentile of these at 10% that is 275 million.

If there are 50,000 converts, that is a drop in the ocean and that are for the wrong reasons due to their perverted characters or ignorance of the real ideology of Islam.

I don't believe there is a large quantum of females converting to Islam voluntarily [not including by marriage and for other reasons of conveniences]. There are no accurate statistics on this.
It is most likely that those non-Muslims females who converted to Islam are from the above groups of low-esteem and psychological irrational females.

No rational person will convert to Islam if they are fully aware of what Islam represent as in the 6236 verses of the Quran with its tons of evil and violent elements plus the misogynistic elements from the 7th century which is immutable eternally.

I have read of many testimonies from female ex-Muslims who converted out of Islam when they learned the real evil nature of Islam and for others the misogynistic elements within Islam.
The natural trend for humanity toward the future is more likely to move from evil to good rather than revert from good to evil due to psychological reasons and ignorance.

Note my latest analysis of the Quran's 6236 verses.
3490 of the Quran's verses contain direct and indirect [via pronouns, etc.] are attributed to the non-Muslims with 6,279 elements of evil [one verse contain a few evil elements], violence and contempt directed at the non-Muslims.

The terrible contemptuous, derogatory and antagonistic elements [>50 types] directed at the non-Muslim are like, swines, apes, asses, cattle, worst creatures, evil, evil doers, hated/abhorred, deniers, wrong doers, liars, ignorant, blind, deaf, be killed, destroyed, doomed, and many others.

With the above loads of evil and violent elements, it is so evident the ideology of Islam be peaceful towards the non-Muslims as glaringly proven by the evidence of evil and violent acts committed upon non-Muslims throughout the history of Islam to the present and will be in the future.

 

[setst777]

You and I have already discussed evil and violent acts outside of the realm of terrorism in other threads. Here are a couple of the responses I gave.

If Islam actually taught this, how do you explain so many women converting to Islam each year? In fact, women in the west and in Latin America are converting to Islam at rates of more than 2 to 1 over men.

Setst RE: Why do you always say "If it actually taught this?" Of course Islam teaches it and commands it in every case I have brought up about everything Islam.

Why women convert to Islam has nothing to do with the topic. What Islam teaches as Sharia that causes such savagery is the topic.

setst777 said: ↑
And then they use words like
'stereotyped'
'erases our struggles'
'savage traditions'
'faceless'
'living through hostility, discrimination, and oppression'
as if Ms Ali was the cause of this.

Click to expand...

She's not the cause of it, but she certainly contributes to it.

Setst RE: A person who is defending others against Islamic savagery does not mean she is now contributing to it. For instance, let's say I were to save your life from car that was in flames and then the car exploded afterwards. Unfortunately there were three other people still trapped in the vehicle when it exploded and they were instantly killed. I am not guilty of contributing to their deaths just because I saved your life.

Islam is the fire that is causing untold misery. Ms Ali is attempting to save some from Islam's clutches. Now how does that make her responsible for those still suffering inside Islam?

setst777 said: ↑
Regarding the phrase "faceless," isn't it Islam that wants women's faces covered and their entire bodies from head to toe so they remain faceless and unnoticed?

That's not taught in Islam. Dressing modestly yes, covering their entire bodies from head to toe? No.

Setst RE: You are not living in reality. The burka – which includes veiling the face – is understood in many Islamic countries even if not obligatory today, is based on Allah’s Word – the Qur’an.

Qur’an 24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.)

Qur’an 33:53 If you ask his wives for anything, speak to them from behind a curtain. This is more chaste for your hearts and their hearts.

Qur’an 33:55 It is no sin on them (the Prophet's wives, if they appear unveiled) before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brother's sons, or the sons of their sisters, or their own (believing) women, or their (female) slaves, and keep your duty to Allah. Verily, Allah is Ever All-Witness over everything.

Quran 33:59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sahih Bukhari
Allah commands the believing women to guard their chastity, and the command to guard their chastity also a command to follow all the means of doing that. No rational person would doubt that one of the means of doing so is covering the face, because uncovering it causes people to look at it and enjoy its beauty, and thence to initiate contact. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The eyes commit zina and their zina is by looking…” then he said, “… and the private part confirms that or denies it.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6612; Muslim, 2657

"The majority opinion which emerged during that time, predominant among Maliki and Hanafi jurists, held that women should cover everything except their faces in public. In contrast, most medieval Hanbali and Shafi'i jurists counted a woman's face among the awra, concluding that it should be veiled, except for the eyes."[25][23]
Burqa - Wikipedia

setst777 said: ↑
Reliance of the Traveller - a SUNNI SHARIA FIGH Manual
e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (this is called Hufaad).” The Western version of Reliance of the Traveller uses taqyah to cover up the reality of a women's obligatory circumcision by making it a appear as if only the outer part of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is cut out.

Click to expand...

I tried explaining to you earlier in the thread why you can not take the Reliance of the Traveler as gospel when it comes to Islamic law.

Female circumcision is not mentioned in the Qur'an nor does it have anything to do with Islam. It's a cultural practice and existed many centuries prior to the existence of Islam.

Setst RE: You don’t understand Sharia or Islam. Sharia is the Gospel of Islam. There is no Islam without Sharia - founded on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira.

Naive Westerners like to think Islam has little to do with their Core Scriptures; yet, they will claim up and down that the NT Scriptures are their Gospel. Very strange and insensitive bigots.

I quote:

Modern [view on female circumcision]

Fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that it is prescribed, not an inherited custom

… Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed. [Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 82859]
Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam

Egyptian Shaykh:
FGM Not An Inherited Custom. Muslim Scholars Say It Is Either Obligatory or Commendable
Egyptian shaykh Muhammad Hassan
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation

End of quotes

Female genital circumcision is founded on the Allah and His Prophet and is presently practiced in at least 30 countries - not all Muslim. See: [Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country - Wikipedia].

Once Islam gains dominance again, Allah’s Law on circumcision will again become mandatory on all Muslims.

So you say that female genital circumcision has nothing to do with Islam? You just are really naïve about Islam. I already quoted Reliance of the Traveller – Sunni Sharia Figh.

Reliance of the Traveller – Sunni Sharia Figh
e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (this is called Hufaad)
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri

I now turn to Sahih narrations of what the Prophet of Allah commanded…

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”
Sahih Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
Sunan Abu Dawud 41:5251, also is Sahih Muslim

Abu al- Malih ibn `Usama's father relates that the Prophet said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167

Abu Musa reported: … What makes a bath obligatory for a person? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.
Sahih Muslim 3:684

Some of your responses do not deserve a reply, because they are even more naive and illogical then the ones I already replied to.

setst777 said: ↑
If a Muslim woman is raped, she must have four male witnesses to testify in her favor at court.

Not true. If so, how do you explain this hadith?

Setst RE: Yes it is true. That is not a Sahih narration, and we do not know if that was something Muhammad said before the command came down from Allah that four male witnesses must be present to confirm an accusation of adultery or fornication.

Quran (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them..."

Islamic Law across the board states that a woman accused of rape is required by law to have four male witnesses that will testify on her behalf, or she could be accused by the court of false accusations against someone else. For instance:
Rape and produce 4 witnesses - Islamhelpline

setst777 said: ↑
There is much more I could write on how Prophet Muhammad and the Muslim men treated women unjustly and savagely, like women do have to have permission to go anywhere without their husband or guardian, and in many societies and many other such controls on their activities, but this was supplied to show that these three women in the video are total liars - using Taqyah to deceive the West.

Click to expand...

Wasn't it Hirsi Ali who deceived the west when she falsified her history and lied about being persecuted to gain asylum? Her deception also led to her getting a refugee grant to attend Leiden University and receive a degree. Her whole life and her resulting "success" is based on lies.

Setst RE: I am not saying what she did was totally honorable, but you cannot generalize one deed as if her whole life is, and all she does, is a lie, just as one wrong thing you do does not discredit everything you do in the future.

Ms. Ali did what she felt she had to do at the time, and does not discredit her actions to protect Muslim women, and to protect the West against Islam by telling the truth about Islam and the danger it poses to our way of life.

Wasn’t it these women in the video who deliberately lied to slander a woman for telling the truth about Islam without any evidence to show? They are just spouting off obscenities that actually describe their own religion.

Did you ever think to ask them why they dress the way they do when it's so hot? Believe it or not, going out on a 90 degree plus day in full sunlight in a loosely fitting black burka would make a woman feel cooler than wearing shorts and a tank top

Setst RE: That is ridiculous. Black absorbs heat. Try that for science. And the outfits that these Muslim women wear are by no means shear or loose. Their outfits are securely wrapped around their bodies.

setst777 said: ↑
Regarding stereotypes, these three women are quick to call others colonizers and accuse of Genocide, but forget to mention that Islam conquered and colonized 2/3 of Europe, enslaved, pillaged, raped, destroyed, murdered, subdued hundreds of millions of people - wiping out many civilizations and cultures - all in the name of Allah by the command of Allah and His Messenger.

Click to expand...

Are you forgetting that Christian Europeans conquered 3/4ths of the world (Much more than Islam) enslaving, pillaging, raping, destroying, murdering, subduing hundreds of millions of people - wiping out many civilizations and cultures - all in the name of Divine Providence and Manifest Destiny? There was nothing wrong in what these women stated in that video.

Setst RE: You mean when the Europeans reclaimed lands that Islam had taken by force? Any other such wars were not based on Christian Law as revealed in the NT.

IN CONTRAST: Islamic Terrorism and War are founded within Sharia Law in all four schools of Sunni and in Shia, and as described in the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira.

So how you can compare Islam's actions to any other group in history is mind boggling. Islam's own Scriptures command them to perform Jihad against unbelievers until the world is Islam. All four schools of Sunni, and Shia interpret Jihad in this manner. So don't try and redefine Islam based on your Western bigotry.

 

[Joyousperson]

Here in the Philippines, and also Indonesia and Malaysia, I see women dressed the same way with many only showing their eyes. Not only are temperatures in the 90 to sometimes 100 degree plus range much of the year, but the humidity is often off the charts.

Did you ever think to ask them why they dress the way they do when it's so hot?

Believe it or not, going out on a 90 degree plus day in full sunlight in a loosely fitting black burka would make a woman feel cooler than wearing shorts and a tank top (There's a scientific explanation for why this is). This is something you can try yourself sometime. Find a black cotton sheet cut an opening for your eyes and stand outside on a hot sunny day for an hour. Do the same thing on another hot sunny day wearing a white t-shirt (or even no shirt) and a pair of shorts without a hat for the same amount of time. You will find that covering yourself with the black sheet is much more comfortable.

But back to the main point, you are incorrect to say that Muslim women must cover up everything except for their hands and eyes. If this were true, then you would see more than just a small minority of Muslim women doing this. Even among those who do, for most it's a matter of choice and not because they must.

Yes there is some scientific explanation re wearing black can be cooler but that is under very limited conditions thus not practical in the tropics with sustained hot and humid weather that last for hours.
In our modern era it is ridiculous for any ordinary women to cover themselves up with a burga or a hijab in relation to religion.

Why some female Muslimahs cover up is due to their zeal and desperation to conform to Allah's wishes [in the Quran and Ahadith] to secure their salvation to paradise with eternal life. The more they comply [with the extra mile] the more psychological comfort they will obtain for themselves.
Btw, you admitted Islam is a false religion why are you going to such lengths to defend the wearing of the burga and hijab?

This is the same zeal and desperation why SOME [from a pool of 320 million] will strive to comply with the commands of Allah in the Quran & Ahadith to war against and kill non-Muslims.

It is very typical for any religious follower to comply with as much as possible to what their God commands them to do in order to feel more psychological secure of their salvation.

The exception is; Islam is the only mainstream religion that has terrible evil and violent elements within its ideology such as warring against and other violence upon non-Muslims. In addition there are ridiculous commands and those that implied the need of the burga and hijab that compel the insecure Muslims to comply with such evil and ridiculous commands to secure their salvation.

Btw, as with the STALEMATE DILEMMA who are YOU, me or others to judge and insist otherwise?

 

[Joyousperson]

JosephZ,

It is likely if you had looked around your surroundings within this week you would have seen your Muslim neighbors slaughtering cows in the open as a sacrifice to please Allah.

You need to understand the psychological elements in such atrocious barbaric acts of killing for sacrifice in a religious setting.

Islam is the only mainstream religion that promote such an act of open slaughter in killing cows to please Allah.
While such barbaric acts may not be practiced by all Muslims, the majority will definitely agree with such acts.

Such atrocious barbaric acts are reflective of the embedded zeal of Muslims' desperation to please Allah in accordance to the commands of Allah in the Quran and the Ahadith.

This is the same zeal of a significant SOME Muslims to carry out the commands in the Quran [& Ahadith] of warring against and killing non-Muslims to please Allah to ensure of a secure passage to paradise with eternal life.

Point is, you may have your views against the above, but You, me and others do not have the divine authority to judge those Muslims who has the zeal to follow Allah's commands in the Quran to war against and kill non-Muslims.

 

[JosephZ]

Setst RE: Why do you always say "If it actually taught this?" Of course Islam teaches it and commands it in every case I have brought up about everything Islam.

What you are describing in this thread is not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. What you are describing is a sect found within the religion of Islam that is followed by primarily Islamic extremists.

Here is a good commentary on Wahhabism: Wahhabism: Pure Islam or extremism?

Setst RE: You don’t understand Sharia or Islam. Sharia is the Gospel of Islam. There is no Islam without Sharia - founded on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira.

Aside from what you have learned from notorious anti-Islamic websites and shared here, what is your background in Islamic studies and your relationship with Muslims?

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam

Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam

WikiIslam is an anti-Islamic website as I have pointed out many times. And just so you know it's not just me saying this, here is another source WikiIslam - Media Bias/Fact Check

I quote: Modern [view on female circumcision] Fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that it is prescribed, not an inherited custom
… Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed. [Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 82859] Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam

The quote you provided above proves two things. First, that wikiIslam is an anti-Islamic website since it is using the site Islamicq&a as a source and intentionally conflating the information found there with the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow; and second, that you are trying to equate the sect of Wahhabism to the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslim follow.

Islamq&a and the information found at that site is produced by Muhammad Al-Munajjid, [A Saudi Arabian Whahhabist Cleric] who follows the Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab movement. He is the founder of IslamQA.info and oversees the fatwas issued on the website. He follows the Hanbali jurisprudence and uses the basis of the salafi movement to answer questions on the website.

Fewer than 5% of the world's Muslims would adhere to the teachings found on that website.

Female genital circumcision is founded on the Allah and His Prophet and is presently practiced in at least 30 countries - not all Muslim. See: [Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country - Wikipedia].

Female circumcision is NOT founded on Allah and the prophet Muhammad.

As I said in my last post, FGM predates the arrival of Islam.

Recent studies have shown that some 90% of Egyptian women have been circumcised. The practice is common among Muslim as well as Christian families in Egypt and other African countries, but is rare in the Arab world. It is believed to be part of an ancient Egyptian rite of passage…
https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/4b6fe1cd0.pdf (PDF)

Egyptian mummies show women infibulated and this is supported by a Greek papyrus in the British Museum dated 163 BC. A Greek historian and geographer in the second-century BC reported that a group along the eastern coast of the Red Sea cut their women in “Egyptian style” and that another group “cut off in infancy with razors the whole portion that others circumcise”. Curiously, today FGM is referred to as “Pharaonic circumcisions” (i.e. Egyptian) in Sudan and “Sudanese circumcision” in Egypt.
What are the origins and reasons for FGM?28 Too Many

The exact origin of female genital mutilation (FGM) remains unclear. Some scholars have proposed Ancient Egypt (present-day Sudan and Egypt) as its site of origin, noting the discovery of circumcised mummies from fifth century BC. Other scholars theorize that the practice spread across the routes of the slave trade, extending from the western shore of the Red Sea to the southern, western African regions, or spread from the Middle to Africa via Arab traders.
https://med.virginia.edu/family-medicine/wp-content/uploads/sites/285/2017/01/Llamas-Paper.pdf

A Greek papyrus dated 163 B.C. mentioned the operation being performed on girls in Memphis, Egypt, at the age when they received their dowries, supporting theories that FGM originated as a form of initiation of young women.
How Did Female Genital Mutilation Begin?

So you say that female genital circumcision has nothing to do with Islam? You just are really naïve about Islam. I already quoted Reliance of the Traveller – Sunni Sharia Figh.

And I explained already why you can not take Reliance of the Traveler as gospel.

While FGM is practiced in Egypt, which is predominantly Muslim, it is not practiced in many other countries with predominantly Muslim populations, such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The association of FGM with Islam has been refuted by many Muslim scholars and theologians who say that FGM is not prescribed in the Quran and is contradictory to the teachings of Islam.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2010/06/16/qa-female-genital-mutilation

I now turn to Sahih narrations of what the Prophet of Allah commanded…

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”
Sahih Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527

Do women also have to trim their mustaches?

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
Sunan Abu Dawud 41:5251, also is Sahih Muslim

Had your source quoted this hadith in it's entirety you would find that it comes from a relativity unknown source and it's authenticity can't be verified.

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (ﷺ) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. Abu Dawud said: It has been transmitted by 'Ubaid Allah b. 'Amr from 'Abd al-Malik to the same effect through a different chain. Abu Dawud said: It is not a strong tradition. It has been transmitted in mursal form (missing the link of the Companions) Abu Dawud said: Muhammad b. Hasan is obscure, and this tradition is weak.

Abu al- Malih ibn `Usama's father relates that the Prophet said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167

Another weak hadith.

Abu Musa reported: … What makes a bath obligatory for a person? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.
Sahih Muslim 3:684

Since circumcision was already being practiced prior to Islam, how does this hadith in anyway command that women be circumcised?

Here's some further reading for you on this subject: https://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/De-linking FGM from Islam final report.pdf

Yes it is true. That is not a Sahih narration, and we do not know if that was something Muhammad said before the command came down from Allah that four male witnesses must be present to confirm an accusation of adultery or fornication.

What? That hadith comes from Sahih Muslim which is the most authentic volume of Hadiths after Sahih Al-Bukhari.

Sahih Meaning: Sound/correct/authentic.

The most famous sahih books are Sahih by Bukhari, and Sahih by Muslim. There are 6 recognised sahih books collectivly known as the sihah sitah (six sahihs). These books contain narrations of what Prophet Muhammed (SAW) did or said as well as other details.

The compilations of authentic hadith by alBukhari (d. 870) and Muslim (d. 875) known collectively as al-Sahihayn serve for the Sunnis as the second highest source of religion after the Quran.

Quran (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them..."

This verse is in reference to adultery, not rape. I will put that verse into more context below to show this.

2.The adulteress and the adulterer—whip each one of them a hundred lashes, and let no pity towards them overcome you regarding God’s Law, if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their punishment.

3. The adulterer shall marry none but an adulteress or an idolatress; and the adulteress shall marry none but an adulterer or an idolater. That has been prohibited for the believers.

4. Those who accuse chaste women, then cannot bring four witnesses, whip them eighty lashes, and do not ever accept their testimony. For these are the immoral.

5. Except for those who repent afterwards, and reform; for God is Forgiving and Merciful.

As seen in the verses above, adultery is the subject leading up to that verse. Here are some alternate translations of Qur'an 24:4:

Muhammad Sarwar: Those who accuse married women of committing adultery - but are not able to prove their accusation by producing four witness - must be flogged eighty lashes. Never accept their testimony thereafter because they are sinful,

Arberry: And those who cast it up on women in wedlock, and then bring not four witnesses, scourge them with eighty stripes, and do not accept any testimony of theirs ever; those -- they are the ungodly,

The crime of rape falls under a different category than the crime of adultery in Islam, therefore, Qur'an 24:4 can't be used to make the claim that four witnesses are needed to prove rape since it is dealing with adultery.

Islamic Law across the board states that a woman accused of rape is required by law to have four male witnesses that will testify on her behalf, or she could be accused by the court of false accusations against someone else. For instance:
Rape and produce 4 witnesses - Islamhelpline

Who publishes Islamhelpline and what are their credentials?

Ms. Ali did what she felt she had to do at the time, and does not discredit her actions to protect Muslim women, and to protect the West against Islam by telling the truth about Islam and the danger it poses to our way of life.

Since Ms. Ali claimed she was suffering persecution (Later proven to be a lie) in 1992, why didn't Ms. Ali start an effort to protect women and the west against Islam and warning about its dangers in the 1990's? Why is it that she waited until after 9/11 to do this? If she felt Islam was such a threat, why not start sounding the alarm immediately?

The fact that she waited until after 9/11 to start criticizing Islam, writing books on the subject, and going on the public speaking circuit, gives the appearance that financial gain rather than speaking the truth is her motivation for doing so.

Wasn’t it these women in the video who deliberately lied to slander a woman for telling the truth about Islam without any evidence to show?

Can you point out the deliberate lies in that video?

That is ridiculous. Black absorbs heat. Try that for science.

This is correct. Just as it absorbs heat from the sun, it also absorbs heat from the body. When a loose fitting black burka is worn, this makes it more comfortable than say someone standing out in the sun wearing a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. This is in part because the heat is being removed from the body, and also because the looseness of the burka allows for the air to flow between the woman's body and the burka its self.

And the outfits that these Muslim women wear are by no means shear or loose. Their outfits are securely wrapped around their bodies.

Are you sure you've seen Muslim women dressed from head to toe where you live? If the Muslim women were you live are practicing their faith to the extent of covering themselves from head to toe, they surely wouldn't be wearing outfits that are securely wrapped around their bodies. That would defeat the purpose of them dressing that way since hiding the shape of the body is one of the primary reasons for a Muslim woman to dress in such a way. In fact, burkas and other Muslim attire for women are designed to be loose fitting.

All four schools of Sunni, and Shia interpret Jihad in this manner. So don't try and redefine Islam based on your Western bigotry.

All four schools of Sunni and Shia? I provided you with a chart in an earlier post that shows the schools of thought in Islam and how they are divided between Sunni and Shia Islam. Here it is again:

Each of the Islamic schools of thought teach differently and vary from region to region. If they all taught the same then why do they go by different names and why aren't all Muslims on the same page?
Today, the five schools of Islamic thought accepted by all Muslims are the Ja'fari, comprising 23% of the Muslims; the Hanafi, comprising 31% of the Muslims; the Maliki, comprising 25% of the Muslims; the Shafi'i, comprising 16% of the Muslims; and the Hanbali, comprising 4% of the Muslims. The remaining small percentage follow other minority schools, such as the Zaydi and the Isma'ili.

What you have been describing in this thread is only accepted by around 4 to 5% of the Muslims who fall within the Hanbali school of thought.

You are incorrect in saying that all schools of thought in Islam teach the same in regards to jihad. Salifi and Wahhabism teach offensive violent jihad whereas mainstream Sunni and Shia schools of thought teach defensive jihad and the use of violence only after all avenues of a peaceful solution have been exhausted.

Some of your responses do not deserve a reply, because they are even more naive and illogical then the ones I already replied to.

Once again, aside from what you have learned from notorious anti-Islamic websites and shared here, what is your background in Islamic studies and your relationship with Muslims?

 

[JosephZ]

It is likely if you had looked around your surroundings within this week you would have seen your Muslim neighbors slaughtering cows in the open as a sacrifice to please Allah.

You need to understand the psychological elements in such atrocious barbaric acts of killing for sacrifice in a religious setting.

Islam is the only mainstream religion that promote such an act of open slaughter in killing cows to please Allah.
While such barbaric acts may not be practiced by all Muslims, the majority will definitely agree with such acts.

Such atrocious barbaric acts are reflective of the embedded zeal of Muslims' desperation to please Allah in accordance to the commands of Allah in the Quran and the Ahadith.

Yes, Eid’l Adha is a national holiday in the Philippines. National holiday on Monday for Eid’l Adha celebration

It's hardly a barbaric act of killing as you describe it. The animals are killed in a humane way and then they are butchered and the meat is divided up and primarily distributed to the poor and needy. Here is an example from a province here in Mindanao where at least 224 calves were butchered today and distributed to Maranao families (Refugees from the Marawi Siege) still living in tent cities and shelters where each family will be given 1.5 kg of beef.

 

[Joyousperson]

What you are describing in this thread is not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. What you are describing is a sect found within the religion of Islam that is followed by primarily Islamic extremists.

Here is a good commentary on Wahhabism: Wahhabism: Pure Islam or extremism?

What is the religion of Islam is represented solely by the 6236 verses of the Quran as revealed and recited by Muhammad between 610 -632 CE. This is supported by the Ahadith.

Therefore it does not matter whatever the label, i.e. Wahhabism, Suni, Shafi'i, Shia, etc.
What count as Islamic is whether the individual Muslim or group of Muslims believe and act in accordance to the verses of the Quran [supported by Ahadith].

In the above article,
Wahhabism: Pure Islam or extremism?
the author did not analyze the beliefs and doctrines of the groups [Wahhabists, Sunni, etc.] he compared and condemned.
The author did not refer to the 6236 verses of the Quran, i.e. the final authority of Islam.

If you can prove the Wahhabists and other groups of Muslims you or the author condemned as unIslamic based on arguments from the Quranic verses -conclusively, then I will agree with you.

Note Dr. Bale stated you cannot insist Al-Qaeda, IS and the likes are unIslamic, since the members declared the Shahada and quote the Quran to justify their acts and duty to please Allah.

Note this from the Ahadith [I thought I read a verse related to this in the Quran, have to find it again]

Concept of Takfir:
In Saheeh al-Bukhaari (6104) and Saheeh Muslim (60) it is narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“If a man declares his brother to be a kaafir, it will apply to one of them.”​

According to another report:

“Either it is as he said, otherwise it will come back to him.”​

Guidelines on takfeer (ruling someone to be a kaafir) - Islam Question & Answer​

It is a cheap shot from you to accuse whoever Muslims you don't agree with as Wahhabist.
Even then if they are Wahhabist you and any other Muslims cannot insist they are not Muslims in the eyes of Allah.

Note:

6:149. Say For Allah's is the final argument. Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you.​

The only way you can conclude [to some degree] they are not Muslims is to prove they do not comply with the definition of What is Islam and Who is a Muslim in accordance to the words of Allah, i.e. the 6236 verses in the Quran.

 

[Joyousperson]

Yes, Eid’l Adha is a national holiday in the Philippines. National holiday on Monday for Eid’l Adha celebration

It's hardly a barbaric act of killing as you describe it. The animals are killed in a humane way and then they are butchered and the meat is divided up and primarily distributed to the poor and needy. Here is an example from a province here in Mindanao where at least 224 calves were butchered today and distributed to Maranao families (Refugees from the Marawi Siege) still living in tent cities and shelters where each family will be given 1.5 kg of beef.

Due to social pressure, many Muslims are forced to do it a more acceptable manner, stunned or even done in abbatoirs.
However there are still many Muslims in the more urban and villages who slaughtered the cows in the barbaric manner in public.

Note my main point is the associated "zeal" in related to this barbaric intentions of the willingness to killing even of one's own son to please God to ensure one's own salvation.

This is the same zeal of the lesser motivation to war against and killing non-believers to please Allah as a religious duty as commanded in the many such verses in the Quran.

The fact is such zeal do trigger a significant SOME Muslims to carry out evil and violence upon non-Muslims as a religious duty and no one on earth can judge against it on a divine basis.

How can you deny the above acts are not in alignment with the doctrine of real Islam?

 

[Joyousperson]

JosephZ,

Here are two verses to support my point why Muslims must war against disbelievers under similar conditions of threat [fasadin -which is very vaguely defined in the Quran].

33:61. Accursed, they [infidels] will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.

33:62. That was the Way [SNN: sunnata] of Allah in the case of those [infidels] who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the Way [SNN: lisunnati] of Allah aught of power to change [BDL: tabdīlan].​

The are many stories of how the infidels of old are killed and destroyed because they rebelled and posed a threat to Islam.
These are examples and principles for Muslims who followed after them.

43:55. So, when they [infidels] angered Us, We punished them [infidels] and drowned them every one.
43: 56. And We made them [infidels] a thing past, and an example for those after (them).​

If the stories of old re Pharaoh, the various Biblical stories of warring and killing infidels are to be examples for the Muslims after them, it would the same for the stories of Muhammad and his warring expeditions against the infidels.

Therefore it would be justifiable to the present Muslims of today to use the examples of Muhammad and past stories to justify warring against and killing of disbeliever under those similar conditions and threats [fasadin] [even for drawing of cartoons].

Btw, if the similar conditions exist at present and the Muslims do not act according to what is commanded in the Quran they would have sinned and earned the wrath of Allah.

Do you have any counter for the above.
Quote from the full Quran [not cherry pick contentious ones] to argue your case.

 

[setst777]

What you are describing in this thread is not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. What you are describing is a sect found within the religion of Islam that is followed by primarily Islamic extremists.

setst777 said: ↑
Why do you always say "If it actually taught this?" Of course Islam teaches it and commands it in every case I have brought up about everything Islam.

What you are describing in this thread is not the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow. What you are describing is a sect found within the religion of Islam that is followed by primarily Islamic extremists.

Here is a good commentary on Wahhabism: Wahhabism: Pure Islam or extremism?

Setst: Once again you are confusing Sunni and Shia Islam with Wahhabism. The differences are easy to discern, as I have already shown - utilizing Islam’s own sources - what those differences are. You are deliberately ignoring the evidence.

setst777 said: ↑
You don’t understand Sharia or Islam. Sharia is the Gospel of Islam.There is no Islam without Sharia - founded on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira.

Setst RE: You gave no reply to the above.

setst777 said: ↑
Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam

setst777 said: ↑
Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam

WikiIslam is an anti-Islamic website as I have pointed out many times. And just so you know it's not just me saying this, here is another source WikiIslam - Media Bias/Fact Check

Setst RE: Wikiislam is founded by an ex-Shia Muslim, and supported by ex-Muslims. I am only concerned with the sources wikiislam is providing – Islam’s own sources. I listed wikiislam as the site from which I obtained the source material. Remember, do not attack or negatively label the messenger just because the sources disagrees with you. You have a habit of putting labels on things based on your own subjective bias.

setst777 said: ↑
I quote: Modern [view on female circumcision] Fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that it is prescribed, not an inherited custom
… Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar– as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed. [Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 82859] Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam
Click to expand...

The quote you provided above proves two things. First, that wikiIslam is an anti-Islamic website since it is using the site Islamicq&a as a source and intentionally conflating the information found there with the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslims follow; and second, that you are trying to equate the sect of Wahhabism to the religion of Islam that the vast majority of the world's Muslim follow.

Setst RE:
Firstly: Do not attack the messenger; rather, consider the source material from Islam that is provided.

Secondly: The wikiislam site is not a Wahhabist site, and uses many scholars within Islam from the four schools of Sunni and Shia, including Salali. In this way, wikiislam is providing a balanced understanding of what Islam actually teaches. On many different topics, wikiislam quotes sources from all schools of Sunni and Shia and also Wahhabi and Salafi for that topic, so the reader gets a good understanding.

Islamq&a and the information found at that site is produced by Muhammad Al-Munajjid, [A Saudi Arabian Whahhabist Cleric] who follows the Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab movement. He is the founder of IslamQA.info and oversees the fatwas issued on the website. He follows the Hanbali jurisprudence and uses the basis of the salafi movement to answer questions on the website.

Setst RE: You are looking at just one source out of many given on that same topic. Just because one source is Wahhabist, does not mean all the rest of the sources given are magically Wahhabist. Look as the sources quoted instead of just singling out the Salafii quote.

setst777 said: ↑
Female genital circumcision is founded on the Allah and His Prophet and is presently practiced in at least 30 countries - not all Muslim. See: [Prevalence of female genital mutilation by country - Wikipedia].

Female circumcision is NOT founded on Allah and the prophet Muhammad.

As I said in my last post, FGM predates the arrival of Islam.

Setst RE: What does that prove??? Most religious practices within Christianity or any other religion predate those religions. Is the idea that one particular act or teaching of a religion that was practiced or taught earlier automatically mean the religion is false? Where is your common sense?

setst777 said: ↑
So you say that female genital circumcision has nothing to do with Islam? You just are really naïve about Islam. I already quoted Reliance of the Traveller – Sunni Sharia Figh.

And I explained already why you can not take Reliance of the Traveler as gospel.

Setst RE: Shafii Islam takes it as Gospel. For instance, wherever Shafii Islam is practiced in a country, so is female genital circumcision. Doesn't that mean that Shafii Muslims consider it authoritative for their faith?

According to William Clarence-Smith, Islamic Southeast Asia "overwhelmingly" follows the Shafi`i school of law, the only one to make FGM obligatory.
Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia

So, who are you to think you have more authority to declare what is authoritative for Islam? You don't, so stop pretending you are Islam's authority and judge.

All schools of Sunni and in Shia either recommend or make it obligatory…

Sunni view
The Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali schools of Islamic jurisprudence view it as makruma for women ("noble", as opposed to obligatory).[2] For the Shafi'i school it is obligatory (wājib).[1][2][3]
Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia

Shia view
Shiite religious texts, such as the hadith transmitted by Al-Sadiq, state that "circumcision is makruma ("noble") for women.[77] FGM is performed within the Dawoodi Bohra community in India, Pakistan, Yemen and East Africa.[78]
Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia

And while the female genital circumcision is practiced in parts of Africa that are not Islam, the vast majority of women who are circumcised are within Islam. And since the increase in immigration of Muslims to the US and European countries the practice of female circumcision is growing rapidly.

setst777 said: ↑
I now turn to Sahih narrations of what the Prophet of Allah commanded…

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”
Sahih Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527

Click to expand...

Do women also have to trim their mustaches?

Setst RE: That is not a very educated response.

Hadith

The fitrah is five things, including circumcision

Note that the rule of hadith dictate that if it is not mentioned specifically or if the pronouns do not point to a certain gender, then the hadith is valid for both sexes. Hence, the following hadiths are applicable for both men and women.
Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Female Genital Mutilation - WikiIslam

setst777 said: ↑
Abu Musa reported: … What makes a bath obligatory for a person? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.
Sahih Muslim 3:684

Click to expand...

Since circumcision was already being practiced prior to Islam, how does this hadith in anyway command that women be circumcised?

Here's some further reading for you on this subject: https://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/De-linking FGM from Islam final report.pdf

Setst RE: When viewing all the Islam sources together, we see that the Hadith consider it a noble practice at the least.

The answer given in Sahih Muslim 3:684 mentions circumcision between the two people as a “given” within Islam, as there is no mention of anyone uncircumcised - the thought that any were uncircumcised was not even considered. That means that circumcision is understood to be the norm.

setst777 said: ↑
Yes it is true. That is not a Sahih narration, and we do not know if that was something Muhammad said before the command came down from Allah that four male witnesses must be present to confirm an accusation of adultery or fornication.

What? That hadith comes from Sahih Muslim which is the most authentic volume of Hadiths after Sahih Al-Bukhari.

Setst RE: The quote you gave was from the following source

-- Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)' of Sunan Abu-Dawud -- 4366

Unlike Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim Abu Dawood Hadith are not declared by Sunni as Sahih, but rather Sunan.

Sunnis regard this collection [Abu Dawood] as fourth in strength of their six major hadith collections.
Sunan Abu Dawood - Wikipedia

setst777 said: ↑
Quran (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them..."

This verse is in reference to adultery, not rape. I will put that verse into more context below to show this.

Setst RE: That does not matter. Islamic Law across the board refers to Qur’an 24:4 as the bases for having four witnesses for adultery or fornication whether it was caused by rape or not.

The only difference is that, if the victim states she has been raped, then it is to be accepted as truth. However, if she is accusing a specific person of raping her then she must have solid evidence for her claim.

About Us - Islamhelpline

1. The accused rapist confesses to his heinous crime; or
2. She produces four witnesses to justify her claim that so and so person raped her.

Does A Woman Need Four Witnesses To Prove Rape?

setst777 said: ↑
Wasn’t it these women in the video who deliberately lied to slander a woman for telling the truth about Islam without any evidence to show?

Can you point out the deliberate lies in that video?

Setst RE: I already did in detail.

setst777 said: ↑
That is ridiculous. Black absorbs heat. Try that for science.

This is correct. Just as it absorbs heat from the sun, it also absorbs heat from the body.

Setst RE: That is false. Dark colors do not absorb the heat (not produced from light) any more so than light colors do – for instance put laundry in a dryer… the dark colored items and light colored items are the same temperature.

The heat that dark colors absorb is in the form of light, which dark colors absorb. That is why dark colored items in the sun are hotter feeling than light colored items in the sun.

See: What Colors Absorb More Heat?

This should be common sense, since the side of the clothes that face the body are shaded (dark) by the shadow created between them.

I agree that if the sun is beating on you that wearing light colored clothing is better than the sun’s rays beating on your flesh, which is quite damaging and can cause the skin to dry out and therefore feel hot.

I have never seen a loose fitting burka, and there are various overlapping clothes underneath involved. The clothing looks beautiful but looks totally out of place for the weather. While everyone else has t-shirts and short on, these women are all bundled up in dark clothes.

setst777 said: ↑
And the outfits that these Muslim women wear are by no means shear or loose. Their outfits are securely wrapped around their bodies.

Are you sure you've seen Muslim women dressed from head to toe where you live?

Setst RE: Definitely! Even little girls. They all dress like it was 40 or 50 degrees outside.

setst777 said: ↑
All four schools of Sunni, and Shia interpret Jihad in this manner. So don't try and redefine Islam based on your Western bigotry.

All four schools of Sunni and Shia?

I provided you with a chart in an earlier post that shows the schools of thought in Islam and how they are divided between Sunni and Shia Islam. Here it is again:

Setst RE: Your chart only shows the percentage of Muslims in each sect. That does not tell you what you need to know to understand what Islam teaches in Sunni and Shia and Salafii and Wahhabi – they all teach the same regarding Jihad – defensive and offensive.

All you have to do is look at their Sharia figh, their scholars and Tafsir, to understand this. This is core doctrine of Islam in Sunni, Shia, Salafii and Wahhabi.

 

[Joyousperson]

JosephZ wrote:
And I explained already why you can not take Reliance of the Traveler as gospel.
Link:​

Setst RE: Shafii Islam takes it as Gospel.
​

JosephZ, you are ignorant and out of touch on this.
Some other Muslims [other schools, sects, individuals] may dispute what is in the The Reliance of the Traveler but it is 'gospel'* to the Shafi'i School specifically.

*Not the absolute gospel but near complete because the Shafi'i also relies on others, - read the full intro.​

You should read the Translator's Introduction in the Reliance of the Traveler, i.e.

The four Sunni schools of Islamic law, Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and HanbaJi, are identical in approximately 75 percent of their legal conclusions, while the remaining questions, variances within a single family of explainers of the Holy Koran and prophetic sunna, are traceable to methodological differences in understanding or authentication of the primary textual evidence, differing viewpoints sometimes reflected in even a single school.

The present volume, 'Umdat al-salik [The reliance of the traveller], represents one of the finest and most reliable short works in Shafi'i jurisprudence, a school with perhaps fewer scholarly differences on rulings than others because its main resource is the recension of Imam Nawawi, the great thirteenth-century Shafi'i hadith scholar and jurisprudent who upgraded the work of previous generations in terms of the authenticity and application of hadith evidence.

The author of' Umdat al-salik, Ibn Naqib, closely follows the order and conclusions of Nawawi's encyclopedic al-Majmu': sharh al-Muhadhdhab [The compendium: an exegesis of "The rarefaction"] with its addendum, al- Takmila [The completion], by Ibn Naqib's own sheikh, Taqi ai-Din Subki.

The present volume is virtually an index of the conclusions of the Majmu', and readers interested in the evidence from Koran and hadith for the rulings of the present volume can find them there ...​

Therefore the Muslims who are followers of the Shafi'i Schools will have to comply with the 'Reliance of the Traveller' as advised by the clergy of the Shafi'i Schools.

It is true there are "SOME" modern Muslims who are of the Shafi'i Schools who do not practice FGM but that is based on their personal discretion which is against the teachings of the Shafi'i school as represented in the Reliance of the Traveller and its source the al-Majmu': sharh al-Muhadhdhab [The compendium: an exegesis of "The rarefaction"].

Do you think there is any Muslim devotee of the Shafi'i school who will stand up to condemn what is written in the Reliance of the Traveller as false or wrong?

The GOD-FEARING true devotees of Islam, the lay-Muslims of the Shafi'i will do their best to obey what is written in the Reliance of the Traveller and the AL-Majumu as an obligation to please Allah. Some Muslims will merely nip of a piece of flesh just to feel comfortable they have complied to the rulings. Those devotees of the Shafi'i schools who don't follow will just keep quiet about it and hope for forgiveness.

Therefore the fact is the Schools of Islam do in fact condone such barbaric acts like FGM, as evident in the Reliance of the Traveller [source to the Al Majmu] of the Shafi'i schools.

That FGM is not mentioned in the Quran is a different story.
What counts on this issue is, FGM is commanded in the authorized texts of the 4 main schools of the Sunni which represent 90% of all Muslims.
The only solution to this is to ban the 4 main schools of Sunni, thus their jurisprudence - figh and also the Ahadith where these are sourced from. Can that be done?

 

[Joyousperson]

link:

setst777 said: ↑
All four schools of Sunni, and Shia interpret Jihad in this manner. So don't try and redefine Islam based on your Western bigotry.
All four schools of Sunni and Shia?

Setst RE: Your chart only shows the percentage of Muslims in each sect. That does not tell you what you need to know to understand what Islam teaches in Sunni and Shia and Salafii and Wahhabi – they all teach the same regarding Jihad – defensive and offensive.

All you have to do is look at their Sharia figh, their scholars and Tafsir, to understand this. This is core doctrine of Islam in Sunni, Shia, Salafii and Wahhabi.​

The core texts of reference of the 4 main schools are;

1. Maliki
The Muwaṭṭaʾ (Arabic: الموطأ‎, "well-trodden path") or Muwatta Imam Malik (Arabic: الموطأامام مالك‎) of Imam Malik is the earliest written collection of hadith comprising the subjects of Islamic law, compiled by the Imam, Malik ibn Anas.[1] Malik's best-known work, Al-Muwatta was the first legal work to incorporate and join hadith and fiqh together.
Muwatta Imam Malik - Wikipedia

2. Shafi'i
The author of' Umdat al-salik, Ibn Naqib, closely follows the order and conclusions of Nawawi's encyclopedic al-Majmu': sharh al-Muhadhdhab [The compendium: an exegesis of "The rarefaction"] with its addendum, al- Takmila [The completion], by Ibn Naqib's own sheikh, Taqi ai-Din Subki.
-by Translator Sheik Nuh Ha Mim Keller

3. Hanbali
The Hanbali school derives Shariapredominantly from the Quran, the Hadiths(sayings and customs of Muhammad), and the views of Sahabah (Muhammad's companions).[1] In cases where there is no clear answer in sacred texts of Islam, the Hanbali school does not accept jurist discretion or customs of a community as a sound basis to derive Islamic law, a method that Hanafi and Maliki Sunni fiqhs accept. -wiki
No mentioned of specific authorized texts?

4. Hanafi
The foundational texts of Hanafi madhhab, credited to Abū Ḥanīfa and his students Abu Yusuf and Muhammad al-Shaybani, include Al-fiqh al-akbar (theological book on jurisprudence), Al-fiqh al-absat (general book on jurisprudence), Kitab al-athar (thousands of hadiths with commentary), Kitab al-kharaj and Kitab al-siyar (doctrine of war against unbelievers, distribution of spoils of war among Muslims, apostasy and taxation of dhimmi).​

JosephZ,
You cannot simply blabber what YOU personally think the 4 main schools of Sunni are about and what the devotees and lay-Muslims of the respective schools have to comply with.

You have to refer to their sources and authorize texts to justify your points.

I noted Sets777 have included the relevant references, i.e. the Reliance of the Traveller re the Shafi'i school while YOU have not make any reference to any authorized references at all.
Worst you reject the Reliance of Traveller as an authorized reference of the Shafi'i school.