Islam Do Not Bash Muslims

Joyousperson said:

Note terrorist groups of all ideologies is irrelevant in this argument which is specifically applicable to Islamic terrorism. Your 1% is ridiculous. Show me the reference and link again. Note it is reported; Your 160,000 is a ridiculous number.

Click to expand...

160,000 is being generous, there's probably less than that. Here is one of the posts where I gave the link to the source.

JosephZ said:

If you add up all the members of ISIS, al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Jemaah Islamiya, and even the lesser known groups like Gama’a al-Islamiyya and Jaysh Rijal Al-Tariq Al-Naqshabandi from the US Department of State Country Reports on Terrorism 2017; there are less than 200,000 Islamic terrorists in the world. Even if you double that number to 400,000 just to be sure every single terrorist is counted like lone wolves, etc., it still doesn't add up to 1% of the Muslim population. And if you really want to make sure you got them all and say there's 4,000,000 Islamic terrorists in the world, which would be ridiculous, guess what, It still doesn't add up to 1% of the Muslim population.

So based on the facts above, when someone says that Islam teaches that the quickest pathway to salvation comes from martyrdom, aka being killed in Jihad, or that Islam teaches violence. How is that possible if more than 99% of the more than 1.6 billion Muslims in the world aren't engaging in violent jihad? If Islam really taught things like that, common sense should tell us that if less than 1% of the followers of that religion are engaging in violence, then this must not be what Islam teaches.

Click to expand...

Joyousperson said:

I challenge you to the following; If you believe there are only 1% of terrorists, I dare you to go to a square in the main city of Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan and start condemning Islam and prophet Muhammad. If you insist 1% then only 1 or two from the crowd will threatened you with death. I am very certain it is very likely a large percentage >80% of the people present will mob and kill you.

Click to expand...

Why would I as a Christian go into a Muslim community and condemn the religion of the people that live there? How would that be showing love to my Muslim neighbor? What good would come from taking such an approach? Why would I intentionally want to damage my person witness to Christ in doing such a thing?

In another thread you told me I should teach Muslims here that they can't be friends with non-Muslims by showing them verses in the Qur'an out of context. Why would I teach something or behave in a way that would would create discord and division? Why would I as a Christian teach Muslims an extremist ideology?

Muslims don't interpret the Islamic texts like you do and neither do I as a Christian missionary. If I were to go into a Muslim community and start teaching counter to what they have been been taught by their religious leaders and what they believe, I would come across as just some ignorant fool.

Joyousperson said:

Actually you can read and count them from reading the Quran thoroughly. I have already given a sample of 15 verses from Chapter 2 and the rest of the 3400++ are along the same line, i.e. condenming the non-Muslims antagonistically of various degrees. I will get them published in time.
In the meantime, you can read from Bill Warner's site which included some related verses without the infidel content.

Click to expand...

I already showed where Bill Warner's "research" is garbage.

JosephZ said:

Below are two examples from Bill Warner's research where the word kafir (Unbeliever) is used and the surrounding content that he counts towards reaching his conclusion that 64% of the Qur'an contains violent references to unbelievers:

27:59 Say: Praise be to Allah and peace be on His servants whom He has chosen for His
message. Who is better, Allah or the false gods they associate with Him? Is He not the best,
Who created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends rain down from heaven for you,
which We then cause to grow luxurious gardens? You do not have the power to cause trees
to grow. How could there be another god besides Allah? Still, they try to say that there are
equals to Him! Is He not the best Who set the earth firmly in place and placed rivers and
immovable mountains there and placed a barrier between the two seas [fresh water and salt
water]? How could there be another god besides Allah? Still, they try to say that there are
equals to Him! Is He not the best Who answers the cries of distressed souls when they call to
Him and relieves their suffering and makes you the inheritors of the earth? How could there
be another god besides Allah? How few keep this in mind! Is He not the best Who guides
you through the darkness of the land and the sea and sends the winds as heralds of His
mercy? How could there be another god besides Allah? Allah is far above what they
associate with Him.
27:64 Is He not the best Who created life and then repeats it, and Who provides for you from
the heavens and the earth? How could there be another god besides Allah? Say: If you are
telling the truth, then bring your proof. Say: No one in heaven or earth, no one except Allah,
knows the unseen. They do not know when they will be raised from the dead. They know
even less about the hereafter. No, they have great doubts about it. No, they are blind to it.
27:67 The unbelievers say, “What? Will we really be raised from the dead when we have
become dust like our fathers? It is true that we were promised this, ourselves and our
fathers, too. This is nothing but ancient fables.”
27:69 Say: Travel through the land and see what becomes of the wicked. Do not grieve over
them and do not be distressed because of their plots against you. They say, “If you are
telling the truth, when will this promise come to pass?”
27:72 Say: Perhaps some of what you seek to hurry towards is near. Your Lord is filled with
goodness toward men, but most are not thankful. Your Lord knows full well what is hidden
in their hearts, as well as everything they reveal. There is nothing hidden in the heavens or
earth that is not recorded in a clear book.
________________________________________________________________________

54:9 Before them, Noah’s people rejected the truth. They rejected Our servant and called
him insane and drove him away. So he cried out to his Lord, “I am defeated. Help me!”
54:11 We opened heaven’s gates and water gushed out, and We caused springs to erupt all
over the earth and their waters [waters of heaven and springs of earth] met by preordained
plan. We carried Noah away on a boat made with planks and nails. It floated away under
Our watchful eye. A reward for someone who was rejected—We left it [the ark] as a sign,
but will anyone pay attention? My vengeance and warning was terrible!
54:17 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:18 The people of Ad [an ancient people of southern Arabia] rejected the truth, but My
vengeance and warning was terrible because We sent a roaring wind against them on a day
of constant disaster sweeping men away like the stumps of uprooted palms. My vengeance
and warning was terrible!
54:22 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:23 The people of Thamud [Thamud was a trade town in ruins north of Mecca] rejected
the warning, and they said, “Should we follow one man just like ourselves? That would be
wrong and insane. Is he the only one of us to be trusted with such a warning? No! He is an
arrogant liar.” Tomorrow they will learn who the foolish liar is.
54:27 We will send them a she-camel as a test. Watch them and be patient. Tell them that
their water must be divided between themselves and the she-camel, and they must take
equal, alternating turns. Instead, they called their companion, who killed her. My
vengeance and warning was terrible! We sent a single blast against them and they became
like dried sticks.
54:32 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:33 Lot’s people rejected his warning, but We sent a shower of stones against them,
except for Lot and his family, whom We saved at dawn as a favor. This is how We reward
those who give thanks. He certainly warned them of Our punishment, but they doubted the
warning. They even tried to get him to turn out his guests, but We blinded their eyes and
said, “Taste My vengeance and My warning!” In the morning a relentless punishment struck
them.
54:40 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:41 Warnings also came to the people of Pharaoh. They rejected all of Our signs, but We
grasped them with the grasp of the mighty and the powerful.
54:43 Are your unbelievers better men than these? Is there an exception for you [the
Meccans] in the scriptures? Or do they say, “We can defend ourselves if we stand together?”
They will be routed and will turn their backs and run. No! The Hour of Judgment is their
promised time, and that hour will be terrible and bitter.
54:47 Surely, the wicked are wrong and crazy. They will be dragged on their faces into the
fire that day. “Feel the fury of Hell.” We have created everything according to a preordained
plan. Our command is a single word, as quick as the wink of an eye. We have destroyed men
like you [the Meccans] in the past, but is any one warned?
54:52 Everything they do is written down in the books [records kept by recording angels]—
every act, both small and great, is recorded. Surely, the righteous will live among the
Gardens with rivers, in the seat of honor, in the presence of a mighty king.

In just those two examples alone, Mr. Warner is counting 19 verses and 1,064 words as containing evidence of violent references to unbelievers or what he calls “Koranic persuasion.”

This is by far one of, if not the, most ridiculous attempts to shine a bad light on a religion that I have ever come across. As I said, it's laughable and should not be taken as serious research by anyone.

Click to expand...

JosephZ said:

I found these examples in just glancing over the first few pages of his 180 page list.

25:61 Blessed is He who placed the constellations in the heavens and placed there the sun and moon. It is He who made the night and the day to follow each other for the benefit of those who desire to consider Allah, or who desire to be grateful.

52:48 Wait patiently for your Lord’s Judgment, because you are in Our eye. Sing Allah’s praises when you rise up, and give Him praise at night and when the stars are setting.

25:45 Have you considered how your Lord makes the shadow grow? If He wished, He could make it stationary. But We have made the sun its guide; then We bring it to Ourselves, a gradual retreat. It is He who makes the night like a covering for you and sleep a repose and makes the day a resurrection.

19:66 Man says, “What? When I am dead, will I then be resurrected?” Does man not remember that We created him before out of nothing?

21:19 Every creature in the heavens and on earth belongs to Him. Those in His presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor do they get tired of the service. They praise Him day and night. They never stop.

67:12 However, forgiveness and a great reward waits for those who secretly fear their Lord. Whether you speak openly or secretly, He knows everything in your heart. Should He not know His creations? He is the subtle, the aware. He smoothed the earth for you, so walk its paths and eat the food He provides. Everything will return to Him after death.

23:62 We do not place upon any soul a burden that is beyond its ability, and We possess a record which speaks the truth. They will never be wronged.

How do the above verses and the hundreds of others he quotes that are similar lead to an "us versus them" mentality, or lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims?

Bill Warner's research is nonsense. If he used the same criteria to judge the Bible he would come to the exact same conclusions.

Click to expand...

If you had some research of your own to share, you would have done so before before now.

Joyousperson said:

Sharia Laws has no such overall limitations on Muslims and non-Muslims. Note the stoning to death for adultery, homosexuals and others. The canning of 100 lashes for various non-compliance and many other evil acts which are condoned by Sharia Laws. The chopping of hands for thefts. You agree with all these heinous laws and punishments.

Click to expand...

What would give you the idea that I agree with such laws? I have never even suggested such a thing. In fact, I spoke out these types of harsh punishments in another thread.

JosephZ said:

countries like Brunei that impose the death penalty for homosexuals need more attention brought to them and there should be a global effort to push them to change their barbaric laws.

Click to expand...

You are confusing political governments usually under Salafist/Wahhabist rule whose leaders base their laws on local interpretations of the Qur'an and haddiths. These rules and laws vary from culture to culture and often contradict what Islam teaches.

Joyousperson said:

Supporting ISIS meant giving them the moral, financial and other support for them to commit their evil acts. These is just like the majority of Germans who support the Nazi party and its ideology. If the majority do not support them, they would not dare to commit the terror they have done.

Click to expand...

It's not that people in the regions where terrorism thrives support these groups, much of it has to do with fear and intimidation used against the population and in other cases theses groups will pay off community leaders or fund projects in order to keep the people from turning against them. The situation in these regions is much more complex than just people supporting them because they approve of what they are doing.

Joyousperson said:

So what?
There are good and bad people in every good but they has nothing to do with Christianity and Buddhism per se.

Click to expand...

It just goes to show you once again that what you claim is unique to Islam exists in other ideologies. You are not using a fair measure of judgement when it comes to Islam.

Joyousperson said:

Based on my empirical based inference there are 20% of Muslims who has a natural active evil tendency and that is a pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims.
True a small % of this pool will have the guts to commit extreme evil, but note if 10% of this pool, it is 32 million which is still a critical quantum.
The overall danger is this 320 million will provide moral, financial and other support to those who will commit the actual acts of evil and violence as an obligation of being a Muslim in compliance to verses in the Quran.

Click to expand...

Once again, this has no support. It's just your opinion based entirely on speculation.

Joyousperson said:

JosephZ,
I suggest you listen to this interview where this very learned Iman speaks the truth of Islam very objectively.
Otherwise show me where he is wrong in his view of Islam?

Click to expand...

Mohammad Tawhidi is a fraud.

"I travelled to Iran, to the holy city of Qom, in 2007, and I engaged in my Islamic studies from there. I received my bachelor's degree and my master's degree in Islamic theology from the Al-Mustafa University." - Mohammad Tawhidi, May 25, 2017

"In spite of given warnings and notifications, the above-named person did not take heed of them each time and had not satisfactory academic record in his courses … he was placed on probation and [dropped] out on March 27, 2012 … the aforesaid person has no educational degree (or any given score) in his profile … Al-Mustafa University does not recommend Mohammad Touhidi for lecturing in any way. Accordingly, he has no competency to do religious activities or to preach sermons." -- Al-Mustafa International University

The Australian National Imams Council, which represents Imams across Australia, has said they do not recognise Tawhidi as an Imam, Sheikh or Muslim leader. His claims of being threatened by Muslims for his opinions have not been backed up by police.

The problem with Imam Tawhidi, the media's favourite Muslim
Welcome to the Weird World of Australia's 'Fake Sheikh', Mohammad Tawhidi

JosephZ said:

Saudi Arabia doesn't represent Islam.

The judicial system is largely governed by Shari’ah as interpreted by judges trained as religious scholars in the Hanbali Sunni school of jurisprudence... The government restricts most forms of public religious expression inconsistent with its interpretation of Sunni Islam. Saudi officials base these restrictions on their interpretation of hadith (sayings of the Prophet), stating that such a stance is what is expected of them as the country that hosts the two holiest mosques in Islam, in Mecca and Medina.

The vast majority of Muslims in the world don't interpret the Qur'an and other Islamic texts in the way the Saudi government does. The Hanbali school was founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal in the 9th century and it's practice is found primarily in the Salafists and Wahhabists movements. Followers of this school of thought are mainly found in Saudi Arabia and fewer than 5% of Muslims adhere to it. It's been rejected by most of the world's Muslim population and many Muslims don't even consider Salafis or Wahhabists to be Muslims.

Wahhabism, the official religion of Saudi Arabia, is an exceptionally virulent, narrow and militant interpretation of Islam based on the teachings of an austere 18th-century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792). Over time, it has morphed into an all-encompassing politico-religious theology that considers all other faith groups deviant, has no tolerance for other cultures, no respect for human rights, no love for democracy and an abiding distaste of Western values. It is harsh, puritanical, unforgiving and violent.

The ultimate goal of Wahhabism is one global community with one creed (Wahhabism) ruled by one Khalifah (ruler), presumably the House of Saud. It makes for a grand strategy not just for hegemony in the Middle East but for global domination.

Over the last few decades, Saudi Arabia has spent more than US$100 billion exporting Wahhabism to all corners of the globe. Thousands of mosques, seminaries, universities, schools and community centers have been built, while thousands of preachers, teachers and activists have been educated, trained and dispatched across the world along with Wahhabi-approved textbooks and other literature.

Government and non-governmental sources claimed that financial support estimated at nearly 100 million USD annually was making its way to Deobandi and Ahl-e-Hadith clerics in the region from “missionary” and “Islamic charitable” organizations in Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates ostensibly with the direct support of those governments.

The network reportedly exploited worsening poverty in these areas of the province to recruit children into the divisions’ growing Deobandi and Ahl-eHadith madrassa network from which they were indoctrinated into jihadi philosophy, deployed to regional training/indoctrination centers, and ultimately sent to terrorist training camps in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA).

You Can’t Understand ISIS If You Don’t Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia

Click to expand...

There's no such thing as wahabbism. It's all just propaganda. Muslims arguing with Muslims and the non-Muslims catching up thinking one of the arguing parties must be guilty of terrorism problem and the other innocent. So they made up this thing called wahabbism which usually is being thrown about without any clear definition as to what it means or often even a clear target as to who is this "wahabbi" we are supposed to be so concerned over.

Yytz6 said:

There's no such thing as wahabbism. It's all just propaganda. Muslims arguing with Muslims and the non-Muslims catching up thinking one of the arguing parties must be guilty of terrorism problem and the other innocent. So they made up this thing called wahabbism which usually is being thrown about without any clear definition as to what it means or often even a clear target as to who is this "wahabbi" we are supposed to be so concerned over.

Click to expand...

I'm aware that many Muslims reject the terms Wahhabism and wahhabists. I guess there could be better terms such as Salafi fundamentalism or purism that could be used to describe these sects, but Wahhabism is pretty much an accepted term globally among Muslims and non-Muslims alike and has been for quite some time. I know it goes at least back at least to the 1970's as this is a term that was used in the Islamic Studies courses I was taking in the mid-80's and some of the texts books being used were published in the 70's. So even at that time when Islamic terrorism was quite rare relatively speaking, the term Wahhabism was already being used.

Joyousperson said:

However the way, JosephZ, used the term is very rhetorical, cheap tactic and intellectually immature by cornering all evil and violent acts by Muslims as attributable to Wahabbism only.

Click to expand...

Do you believe the religion of Islam teaches the following? Yes or no?

• Denounce Muslims who do not interpret the Qur’an literally.
• Muslims to hate Christians, Jews, polytheists and other unbelievers.
Christians are considered infidels who must be fought unless they have a protection contract with Muslims
• Jews and the Christian are enemies of the Muslim believers and the clash between the two realms continues until the Day of Resurrection.
• The spread of Islam through jihad is a religious obligation.
• The struggle between Muslims and Jews will continue until the hour of judgment and that Muslims will triumph because they are right and he who is right is always victorious.
• Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot be loyal to those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives.
• It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam.
• A Muslim, even if he lives far away, is your brother in religion. Someone who opposes God, even if he is your brother by family tie, is your enemy.

If you answered yes, then you are talking about the teachings of the sect commonly referred to as Wahhabism, not the religion of Islam that greater than 90% of the world's Muslims follow.