Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

[stan1953]

Unfortunately, you are still being silly. What does this even mean ? I am glad Lee is engaging with us now, wish you would join in.

Sorry... I thought it was funny. You said "neither Albion nor myself are Calvinists.", Hence my comment, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it's probably a duck, with a french accent."

Just my sense of humour kicking in.

What do you think I have been doing? I'm not playing tiddly winks with you.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Are you saying God placed the propensity for you to believe that you have a freewill, therefore that proves you have a freewill ? How do know that God put freewill within you ? If God placed these freewill fancies in your mind, then you were not really free to believe them !!! Your illustration could easily prove determinism because no freewill choice existed. There was no contrary choice, it was innately engrained in your person.

Ah, you caught me. After all I did say that God sovereignly chose to create me that way. I guess I don't really have freewill after all. You've caused me to change my mind. And here I thought God had it all decided for me in advance that I should believe in freewill, and now you've gone and convinced me otherwise. Whew, glad you've convinced me otherwise and that I was smart enough to change from being one of those freewill crazies who think they get to make up their mind for themselves.

 

[Lee52]

Sorry... I thought it was funny. You said "neither Albion nor myself are Calvinists.", Hence my comment, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it's probably a duck, with a french accent."

Just my sense of humour kicking in.

What do you think I have been doing? I'm not playing tiddly winks with you.

I thought it was a little funny! Okay, maybe more than a little funny!

 

[Lee52]

Ah, you caught me. After all I did say that God sovereignly chose to create me that way. I guess I don't really have freewill after all. You've caused me to change my mind. And here I thought God had it all decided for me in advance that I should believe in freewill, and now you've gone and convinced me otherwise. Whew, glad you've convinced me otherwise and that I was smart enough to change from being one of those freewill crazies who think they get to make up their mind for themselves.

Now I don't care who you are, (or who you think you are) THAT is funny!

 

[Lee52]

Let's address your first point before going on. Is it not clear that if one sins, he is separated from God who knows no sin? Isn't it the case the the Savior was needed precisely because ALL mankind was lost in sin? Isn't that a change? Why otherwise would Adam and Even have been driven from the Garden?

Sure, we can exchange some verses at this point...but is there really an issue needing to be resolved?

Yes, it is change! Yeah! Adam and Eve by their free will changed their, and by default our, relationship with GOD. I am glad you finally saw what I was saying.

Satan sinned and was thrown out of Heaven with 1/3 of the angels.
Satan tempted a free will mankind with sin.
Mankind gave in to sin, which like Satan, changed the relationship with GOD.

GOD did not change.

Man did not change.

The relationship changed due to sin.

We can finally move on to the next step.
Whew......

 

[Lee52]

I don't see your point on verse 13...what is it ? I don't see how you arrive at Adam being powerful than Jesus. You will have to show me. I don't know any Theology that advocates that premise.



You have been saying the fall changed nothing. Romans 5:12 says that sinned entered the world, and death with sin. Isn't that a change ?

You say that Adam's sin changed mankind by saying that we are not the same as when GOD created us because sin changed mankind.

You use verse 12 to support that.

Stay with me here: (I know my paultry, insufficient, and sheltered studies in the Bible are not up to your standards, but I will attempt to raise it to a more confusing level for you, so you can understand it).

The rest of the chapter 5 of Romans says that Jesus is much more capable of rectifying that change than Adam and Eve were of making it. Therefore, if you hold to your position that Jesus is NOT capable of, and DID NOT, change mankind back to our original position, you make Adam and his sin more powerful than Jesus, and His sacrifice on our behalf, to reconcile us to GOD. You ignore that little word "all" once again. It is contained in the rest of Romans 5, and BTW, several other places in the NT.......

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[stan1953]

Ah, you caught me. After all I did say that God sovereignly chose to create me that way. I guess I don't really have freewill after all. You've caused me to change my mind. And here I thought God had it all decided for me in advance that I should believe in freewill, and now you've gone and convinced me otherwise. Whew, glad you've convinced me otherwise and that I was smart enough to change from being one of those freewill crazies who think they get to make up their mind for themselves.

Man! All that time wasted. for 58 years I've been living with freewill and now all of a sudden gone!

Sorry couldn't help myself.

Funny though.

 

[stan1953]

You say that Adam's sin changed mankind by saying that we are not the same as when GOD created us because sin changed mankind.

You use verse 12 to support that.

Stay with me here: (I know my paultry, insufficient, and sheltered studies in the Bible are not up to your standards, but I will attempt to raise it to a more confusing level for you, so you can understand it).

The rest of the chapter 5 of Romans says that Jesus is much more capable of rectifying that change than Adam and Eve were of making it. Therefore, if you hold to your position that Jesus is NOT capable of, and DID NOT, change mankind back to our original position, you make Adam and his sin more powerful than Jesus, and His sacrifice on our behalf, to reconcile us to GOD. You ignore that little word "all" once again. It is contained in the rest of Romans 5, and BTW, several other places in the NT.......

Be blessed,
Lee52

SNAP!

 

[bottomofsandal]

Ah, you caught me. After all I did say that God sovereignly chose to create me that way. I guess I don't really have freewill after all. You've caused me to change my mind. And here I thought God had it all decided for me in advance that I should believe in freewill, and now you've gone and convinced me otherwise. Whew, glad you've convinced me otherwise and that I was smart enough to change from being one of those freewill crazies who think they get to make up their mind for themselves.

Another bully-comedian who won't respond to a post, but prefers one-liners laced with ...


First and foremost, let your yes be yes and your no be no...this diatribe is a fluffy marshmallow that (again) fails to address freewill or choice. Are you modifying your post or just uncertain as to what you believe ? Getting a straightforward answer here is nearly impossible. The pattern is clear---schoolyard bullying and name-calling while posts remain unanswered. When you speak in riddles and ambiguity, is it because you don't want to answer or that you cannot construct a codified rebuttal ?



You said God gave you the knowledge that you have a freewill. I asked how you knew this. How do you know it ? Why do other people not know it ? If God "elected" you to this "irresistible" knowledge, it appears to be "limited" because only you and other "chosen" people possess this ability.


Looks like you are the real Calvinist...

 

[bottomofsandal]

You say that Adam's sin changed mankind by saying that we are not the same as when GOD created us because sin changed mankind.

You use verse 12 to support that.

Stay with me here: (I know my paultry, insufficient, and sheltered studies in the Bible are not up to your standards, but I will attempt to raise it to a more confusing level for you, so you can understand it).

The rest of the chapter 5 of Romans says that Jesus is much more capable of rectifying that change than Adam and Eve were of making it. Therefore, if you hold to your position that Jesus is NOT capable of, and DID NOT, change mankind back to our original position, you make Adam and his sin more powerful than Jesus, and His sacrifice on our behalf, to reconcile us to GOD. You ignore that little word "all" once again. It is contained in the rest of Romans 5, and BTW, several other places in the NT.......

Be blessed,
Lee52

Glad we are discussing Spiritual truths is Spiritual words !

I never said Adam is more powerful than Jesus, neither did I say or infer that The Holy Sacrifice of Jesus did not reconcile us to God. What I did say is there was a change when death (by sin) entered the world. Jesus overcame sin and death and tasted death for us. The condition of man changed when sin entered the world. Whether you believe it to be temporary or not, there was still change.



Pre-fall Adam was innocent, but post-fall Adam (in Christ) has imputed righteousness. Would you say Adam's position and ours improved after the fall ? Are you referring to regeneration and sanctification ? Are you talking about a timeline when we obtain righteousness ? In the Wesleyan tradition, there is teaching about sinless perfection...does this factor in ?



PS: I am courteously asking questions to acquire information for continued dialogue. This is not trickery...I don't know what you believe therefore I must ask questions. I cannot and will not assume anything even if one posts a particular denominational avatar. Asking questions is good. Pretending to know what one believes simply wastes valuable time and is an indicator that one prefers one-line zingers to fellowship.

 

[Lee52]

Another bully-comedian who won't respond to a post, but prefers one-liners laced with ...


First and foremost, let your yes be yes and your no be no...this diatribe is a fluffy marshmallow that (again) fails to address freewill or choice. Are you modifying your post or just uncertain as to what you believe ? Getting a straightforward answer here is nearly impossible. The pattern is clear---schoolyard bullying and name-calling while posts remain unanswered. When you speak in riddles and ambiguity, is it because you don't want to answer or that you cannot construct a codified rebuttal ?



You said God gave you the knowledge that you have a freewill. I asked how you knew this. How do you know it ? Why do other people not know it ? If God "elected" you to this "irresistible" knowledge, it appears to be "limited" because only you and other "chosen" people possess this ability.


Looks like you are the real Calvinist...

First and foremost, Pastor GraceSeeker, Stan1953, and I have never name-called anyone. You can look back through our posts and see that. If you find one where we have, please quote it so that we can see it and appologize for it and ask for forgiveness. I do recall somebody belittling my Christian education, though, and it was not GraceSeeker nor Stan.

 

[Albion]

The relationship changed due to sin.

We can finally move on to the next step.
Whew......

All right. Let's see where this goes then. You are saying, I take it, that we are estranged from God by sin, but still retain freewill to either accept his offer of reconciliation or else reject it. I believe that one consequence of sin is loss of freewill. To that, you apparently feel that Jesus had to have restored mankind's freewill or else he would have failed to remedy Adam and Eve's sin which was visited upon their descendents. But I don't find that in the NT. Everything there is described in terms of regaining eternal life or overcoming death. The idea that we have or are about to regain a mental ability just isn't the message of the Gospel.

 

[Lee52]

Glad we are discussing Spiritual truths is Spiritual words !

I never said Adam is more powerful than Jesus, neither did I say or infer that The Holy Sacrifice of Jesus did not reconcile us to God. What I did say is there was a change when death (by sin) entered the world. Jesus overcame sin and death and tasted death for us. The condition of man changed when sin entered the world. Whether you believe it to be temporary or not, there was still change.



Pre-fall Adam was innocent, but post-fall Adam (in Christ) has imputed righteousness. Would you say Adam's position and ours improved after the fall ? Are you referring to regeneration and sanctification ? Are you talking about a timeline when we obtain righteousness ? In the Wesleyan tradition, there is teaching about sinless perfection...does this factor in ?



PS: I am courteously asking questions to acquire information for continued dialogue. This is not trickery...I don't know what you believe therefore I must ask questions. I cannot and will not assume anything even if one posts a particular denominational avatar. Asking questions is good. Pretending to know what one believes simply wastes valuable time and is an indicator that one prefers one-line zingers to fellowship.

Again, it was/is/will continue to be the relationship between GOD and man that was changed by sin. Man did not become recreated. GOD made man in His own image. Nothing about our creation changed, our relationship with GOD changed. Sin did not enter the world with Adam and Eve and their choice. Satan brought sin into the world, not mankind. All Satan did was capitalize on mankind's innocence and lack of experience with free will. Adam and Eve were created with free will.

You have yet to show one Scripture reference where it states that free will was taken away from man.

AND, BTW, if you say Adam and Eve never had free will, I need to see that Scripture as well.

Thanks,
Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Albion]

Sin did not enter the world with Adam and Eve and their choice. Satan brought sin into the world, not mankind. All Satan did was capitalize on mankind's innocence and lack of experience with free will.

In a sense that is correct. Satan could be said to have brought sin "into the world" by introducing it to Adam and Eve. But it is crystal clear in the Genesis account that it was Adam and Eve who changed their status with God by their own sin. Satan tempted, but they acted.

 

[Lee52]

All right. Let's see where this goes then. You are saying, I take it, that we are estranged from God by sin, (YES) but still retain freewill to either accept his offer of reconciliation or else reject it. (YES) I believe that one consequence of sin is loss of freewill. (Scripture??) To that, you apparently feel that Jesus had to have restored mankind's freewill (NOPE, NEVER LOST IT) or else he would have failed to remedy Adam and Eve's sin which was visited upon their descendents. But I don't find that in the NT. (NEITHER DO I, NOR DID I SAY IT). Everything there is described in terms of regaining eternal life or overcoming death. The idea that we have or are about to regain a mental ability just isn't the message of the Gospel.

(AND I NEVER SAID ANYTHING OF THE KIND)

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes (AN ACT OF MAN'S WILL) in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, (HERE IS THAT ACT OF MAN'S WILL AGAIN) but whoever does not believe is condemned already, (Here is your predestination) because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ANOTHER ACT OF MAN'S WILL) 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) hates the light and does not come to the light, (ACT OF MAN'S WILL), lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, (ACT OF MAN'S WILL), so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” John 3:16-21 ESV

Whoever believes (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) in the Son has eternal life; John 3:36 ESV

"but whoever drinks (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:14 ESV

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24 ESV

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) has eternal life. John 6:47 ESV

“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12 ESV

“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ACT OF WOMAN'S WILL) John 11:25-26 ESV

45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. John 12:45-47 ESV

I am seeing a pattern here, and I am not even out of the Gospel according to John...... So are you now going to debate me on the meaning of the words used by Jesus, Himself? They say what they say. They are accurately translated into modern English from the oldest manuscripts available to us today. Come, let us reason together.........

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Lee52]

In a sense that is correct. Satan could be said to have brought sin "into the world" by introducing it to Adam and Eve. But it is crystal clear in the Genesis account that it was Adam and Eve who changed their status with God by their own sin. Satan tempted, but they acted.

You see, they changed their status, their relationship.

 

[Albion]

(AND I NEVER SAID ANYTHING OF THE KIND)

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes (AN ACT OF MAN'S WILL) in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, (HERE IS THAT ACT OF MAN'S WILL AGAIN) but whoever does not believe is condemned already, (Here is your predestination) because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ANOTHER ACT OF MAN'S WILL) 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) hates the light and does not come to the light, (ACT OF MAN'S WILL), lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, (ACT OF MAN'S WILL), so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” John 3:16-21 ESV

Whoever believes (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) in the Son has eternal life; John 3:36 ESV

"but whoever drinks (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:14 ESV

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24 ESV

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) has eternal life. John 6:47 ESV

“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me (ACT OF MAN'S WILL) will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12 ESV

“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ACT OF WOMAN'S WILL) John 11:25-26 ESV

45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. John 12:45-47 ESV

None of those are necessarily "acts of will," and most aren't acts at all. Perhaps this is the main problem here.

I am seeing a pattern here, and I am not even out of the Gospel according to John...... So are you now going to debate me on the meaning of the words used by Jesus, Himself? They say what they say. They are accurately translated into modern English from the oldest manuscripts available to us today. Come, let us reason together.........

And he also is recorded, in the same book, as having said that his disciples were given to him and couldn't be taken from him. If freewill were the condition of all men, that couldn't be.

 

[bottomofsandal]

In a sense that is correct. Satan could be said to have brought sin "into the world" by introducing it to Adam and Eve. But it is crystal clear in the Genesis account that it was Adam and Eve who changed their status with God by their own sin. Satan tempted, but they acted.

Again, this is a freewill Bible account. There was choice involved in Eden. To not say there was not a decision presented is simply incorrect.To say there was not is not only disingenuous, but requires an active pair of Biblical scissors. So, why then is Genesis 3 in The Bible ?

 

[bottomofsandal]

First and foremost, Pastor GraceSeeker, Stan1953, and I have never name-called anyone. You can look back through our posts and see that. If you find one where we have, please quote it so that we can see it and appologize for it and ask for forgiveness. I do recall somebody belittling my Christian education, though, and it was not GraceSeeker nor Stan.

Ah, another diversion becasue you are ill-equipped to answer questions. For a moment you provided a glimmer of hope that you were interested in real debate, but have returned to chicanery and sophistry. Why do you refuse to answer questions ?



See post # 212, I said "limited and retricted". You are wrong. I must conclude you really have been sheltered and are in uncharted territory if you have never encountered these ideas presented by myself and others. We are all deficient in certain areas, myself included. If you refuse to see your tone and timbre as bully-like, and discard someone's request to attempt more civility, then that is your prerogative.




I will return to the Hitchens versus D'Souza debate on youtube. It is more enjoyable and educational to watch an atheist debate than participate in Soteriological Reductionism.

 

[Albion]

Again, this is a freewill Bible account. There was choice involved in Eden. To not say there was not a decision presented is simply incorrect.

I don't believe that anyone here DID argue such. What I explained was that Adam and Eve willfully bought into Satan's temptations and so committed sin. The consequences of that were many, but loss of freewill was included.