Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

[Lee52]

That's nonsense...unless the evangelist tells the unbeliever that he certainly IS among the elect. Now, THAT would be a lie.

IOW, you are able to craft this scenario your way ONLY by suggesting that the evangelist teach that which he would not and should not do. Beyond that, there would not be any Reformed Christians today if evangelists could not address the truth of election, and yet there are more than a hundred million by any count.

So, what does an evangelist in your doctrine tell the unsaved? "Some of you hearing my presentation of salvation in Christ Jesus have been chosen before the world began to be with GOD forever because of Jesus. Others here listening to me have no hope, for you, unfortunately were predestined to Hell forever. Sorry. After all GOD is sovereign and decided your fate before you were born. But, there is hope! There is hope because none us know whom it is that GOD chose for which outcome. So, come, accept Jesus as your savior and lord and just have faith that when we all meet the lord, he does not say to you, 'I never knew you.'" Is this what your evangelists present?

Again, to present predestination in your manner rather than that which Stan and I put forth, takes semantical gymnastics with the Scriptures that say "ALL" and "Who ever believes" etc.. Stan presented the Scriptures that support our faith doctrines in Christ. Please, honor Stan and I in our request for Scriptural support, in context, of your position.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Albion]

So, what does an evangelist in your doctrine tell the unsaved?

Exactly the same as he'd tell any other unsaved person.

C'mon Lee, your scenario doesn't exist in the real world.

 

[Lee52]

Exactly the same as he'd tell any other unsaved person.

C'mon Lee, your scenario doesn't exist in the real world.

So, what does an evangelist in your doctrine tell the unsaved? I am serious. "Exactly the same as he'd tell any other unsaved person." What is that? What does he/she (assuming you allow she) tell all unsaved people?

My scenario is very real world. Do you or do you not evangelize? If you do, what do you say to unsaved people?

 

[Albion]

So, what does an evangelist in your doctrine tell the unsaved? I am serious.

Look, here's the problem you are creating for yourself. You are assuming that we mortals know whom God has chosen and whom he has not chosen. You feel that we cannot tell the world that God is God and that Jesus was real and meant what he taught...unless we can point out whom it would "benefit" personally. But at the same time, can any freewiller tell us who here will be saved and who will not be saved? NO. So the problem you have identified is not genuine in the first place.

But that aside, everyone should do God's will. Do you not believe that? Everyone should obey the Commandments. Do you not believe that? Everyone should worship and thank God for what he has done for us. Isn't that right? This is something completely separate from whether, in the end, God will save us or not.

As I said, the evangelist tells everyone to believe God and accept the Lord Jesus Christ, to live a new life, and all that any other preacher would say. This is what Jesus told his Apostles to do--take the Gospel to all nations, not to the people they have sorted among and decided are worth the bother.

 

[Lee52]

Look, here's the problem you are creating for yourself.

I have created no problem for me, nor my message to the unsaved I encounter.

You are assuming that we mortals know whom God has chosen and whom he has not chosen.

I assume nothing of the kind. I know that GOD created man in His image, His own image to have fellowship with Him. That has never changed. Sin came into the world through the free will of man. Jesus, Immanuel, GOD with us, came into the world through the free will of GOD. He came here to reconcile mankind to the relationship as designed before sin entered the world.

You feel that we cannot tell the world that God is God and that Jesus was real and meant what he taught...unless we can point out whom it would "benefit" personally.

Point of fact: You do not know my feelings and therefore are not competent to say what I feel.
The fact is, GOD is GOD and GOD is sovereign and does what GOD wants to do at GOD's pleasure, knowledge, and understanding, which is fathoms above any man's. Jesus is real and lives today as the reconciler of man to GOD. Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on the cross as payment in full for mankind's sin applies to every person that will accept and believe in His Name and sacrifice. It benefits all mankind, corporately and individually. We all were predestined to have the same exact relationship as Adam and Eve had prior to the fall. GOD offers that reconcilliation to "all who will believe".

But at the same time, can any freewiller tell us who here will be saved and who will not be saved?

No, and neither can anyone else who does not possess the foreknowledge of GOD. But then, that is not important to those of us in the free will camp. Our message fo salvation in Christ Jesus' blood sacrifice remains true, no matter whom we are speaking to, for it applies to all who hear and accept and believe. At that point in time, the Holy Spirit begins a changed person in a former unsaved person bound for Hell, now bound for Heaven. Because of their former unbelief, they were predestined for Hell. All that they had to do to change that predestination was acceptance of Christ Jesus=belief. Not works based salvation.....FAITH based salvation.

So the problem you have identified is not genuine in the first place.

No problem here. When I tell people that Jesus died to pay for their sins, I mean it honestly and it is the Truth of GOD, no matter whom I say it to. Whether or not they accept it, it is still true. They may never put it into practice, but it remains GOD's free gift, until they absolutely refuse unto earthly death. The gift is there for the taking. Their choice as to whether or not they pick it up and it then applies to their spiritual life regeneration. GOD did all the work necessary. We merely accept it or reject it.

But that aside, everyone should do God's will.

When Jesus returns we all will.

Do you not believe that?

Yes, we should.

Everyone should obey the Commandments. Do you not believe that? Everyone should worship and thank God for what he has done for us. Isn't that right? This is something completely separate from whether, in the end, God will save us or not.

Yes, to all because that is the original intent of why GOD made us.

As I said, the evangelist tells everyone to believe God and accept the Lord Jesus Christ, to live a new life, and all that any other preacher would say. This is what Jesus told his Apostles to do--take the Gospel to all nations, not to the people they have sorted among and decided are worth the bother.

Sounds kind of like free will. Choosing to believe is an act of the will. Acceptance is an act of the will. Choosing to live a new life in Christ is an act of the will. And, finally, what is the Gospel? Is it not that Jesus paid it all, the entire debt that we owe for our sins? And that sacrificial blood pays for all sin, for all time, for all who will accept it, PERFECTLY.

If it limited its power to only those few, elect, pre-chosen, was it really "worth the bother"?

 

[Lee52]

RATS!

Let me see if I can copy it to my computer and clean it up and repost it.

Got it cleaned up for easier reading.

 

[Albion]

I have created no problem for me, nor my message to the unsaved I encounter.

Then I'll put it differently. You are speculating on something being a problem which in reality is no problem at all. Is that clearer?

I assume nothing of the kind.

You posited a scenario in which the Calvinist couldn't preach Christ without including a judgment about whether the hearer would be among the elect or not. In fact, there is no reason for him to do that. More, such evangelists DO NOT have that problem. It's all in your imagination.


(asked if freewillers know who will be saved any more than predestinarians)

No, and neither can anyone else who does not possess the foreknowledge of GOD. But then, that is not important to those of us in the free will camp.

and it is not important to Reformed preachers, either, when it comes to preaching the Gospel to unbelievers.

Sounds kind of like free will.

It does? Christ said to teach the Gospel to all nations...and you say this sounds like a testament to freewill? I don't get that at all. It is perfectly neutral as regards that issue.

to believe is an act of the will. Acceptance is an act of the will.

That's a totally different issue. Here we are discussing being chosen to salvation.

 

[stan1953]

Exactly the same as he'd tell any other unsaved person.

C'mon Lee, your scenario doesn't exist in the real world.

I'm afraid ONLY God is Omniscient and Omnipresent, especially in the real world. Instead of being dismissive how about offering some real answers?

 

[stan1953]

Look, here's the problem you are creating for yourself. You are assuming that we mortals know whom God has chosen and whom he has not chosen. You feel that we cannot tell the world that God is God and that Jesus was real and meant what he taught...unless we can point out whom it would "benefit" personally. But at the same time, can any freewiller tell us who here will be saved and who will not be saved? NO. So the problem you have identified is not genuine in the first place.

The only problem I see are people who don't use their own logic to it's ultimate conclusion. I only see some people assuming that God does that and others asking them to use their own logic to a certain conclusion, which should work if the logic held water. You (collectively) cannot tell anyone you witness to if they WILL be saved or not once they confess and accept Jesus, because you do NOT know... according to you ONLY God knows. But in our world, we don't have to know because our role is to spread the goods news and know WHOEVER confesses Jesus as Savior, will NOT perish, but have the benefit of securing Eternal Life. According to you, this would not happen if they were NOT the elect.

But that aside, everyone should do God's will. Do you not believe that? Everyone should obey the Commandments. Do you not believe that? Everyone should worship and thank God for what he has done for us. Isn't that right? This is something completely separate from whether, in the end, God will save us or not.

Yes we should do all these things in our walk with Christ. This happens AFTER salvation and I agree is separate from salvation. In the end, after the judgement seat, God will grant us Eternal Life or not, but we KNOW if we maintain our walk in Him, we WILL receive our inheritence, Eternal Life.

As I said, the evangelist tells everyone to believe God and accept the Lord Jesus Christ, to live a new life, and all that any other preacher would say. This is what Jesus told his Apostles to do--take the Gospel to all nations, not to the people they have sorted among and decided are worth the bother.

Exactly! That is how God works though us, NOT by sorting and deciding who is the so-called elect. His principle is WHO-SO-EVER WILL.

 

[Albion]

I'm afraid ONLY God is Omniscient and Omnipresent, especially in the real world. Instead of being dismissive how about offering some real answers?

Having explained the point thoroughly and in several different ways, I can't take that whining seriously.

 

[Albion]

You (collectively) cannot tell anyone you witness to if they WILL be saved or not once they confess and accept Jesus, because you do NOT know.

Very true, and it doesn't matter if one is a freewiller or predestinarian. The situation remains the same.

But in our world, we don't have to know because our role is to spread the goods news and know WHOEVER confesses Jesus as Savior, will NOT perish, but have the benefit of securing Eternal Life. According to you, this would not happen if they were NOT the elect.

The first part of your statement was exactly correct. But if you say that whoever confesses Jesus will be saved, you are presuming to know either that they are among the elect or...if your freewill ideas were correct...that you know that they will not backslide in the future. There is no way gthat you can do that, but you still talk as though it's possible.

Exactly! That is how God works though us, NOT by sorting and deciding who is the so-called elect.

I agree.

 

[stan1953]

Then I'll put it differently. You are speculating on something being a problem which in reality is no problem at all. Is that clearer?

Again how do you KNOW? Are parables speculative? Clear as mud Albion.

You posited a scenario in which the Calvinist couldn't preach Christ without including a judgment about whether the hearer would be among the elect or not. In fact, there is no reason for him to do that. More, such evangelists DO NOT have that problem. It's all in your imagination.

That's not what he posited Albion. Read his post again. The point is, based on the logic of Calvinism and true commitment to it, WHY would they evangelize?
If there IS an elect, where are they? Who are they? It's NOT logical at ALL to accept and believe in Calvin's elect theory, when so many other scriptures teach against that. OVERALL the Word teaches universal salvation, NOT selective salvation. BTW, do you believe this election extends to the Jews?

(asked if freewillers know who will be saved any more than predestinarians)

We don't need to know, we believe salvation is for ALL. BTW, what verses do YOU use to support predestination of salvation?

and it is not important to Reformed preachers, either, when it comes to preaching the Gospel to unbelievers.

No well if they really believe it I guess it would occur to them that it would be counter productive to bring it up BEFORE people got saved.

It does? Christ said to teach the Gospel to all nations...and you say this sounds like a testament to freewill? I don't get that at all. It is perfectly neutral as regards that issue.

Well if you don't obey Christ or if you do, you use your freewill. It is very apparent you don't get it, which is why we are having this discussion.

That's a totally different issue. Here we are discussing being chosen to salvation.

Actually the thread is about Freewill. It's the issue at hand, regardless of how or where we exercise it.

 

[stan1953]

Very true, and it doesn't matter if one is a freewiller or predestinarian. The situation remains the same.

Sure it does, very much so. If I lead a soul to Christ, I can, with certainty, tell them they are saved once they confess Jesus. You cannot, because you can't confirm in anyway, that they are elect. According to you, ONLY God knows.

The first part of your statement was exactly correct. But if you say that whoever confesses Jesus will be saved, you are presuming to know either that they are among the elect or...if your freewill ideas were correct...that you know that they will not backslide in the future. There is no way that you can do that, but you still talk as though it's possible.

I didn't say that, the Bible does. I don't presume to know a person's heart. I believe God's word and what He says in it! Again I'm talking about salvation, NOT walking in Christ. I wish you would stop trying to mix the two together, they are two separate issues. Maybe that is your stumbling block. You don't differentiate between salvation and living for Christ/walking in the Spirit?

 

[Albion]

Sure it does, very much so. If I lead a soul to Christ, I can, with certainty, tell them they are saved once they confess Jesus. You cannot, because you can't confirm in anyway, that they are elect. According to you, ONLY God knows.

Only God does know.

But I need to be sure of your position on this. Do you believe that once a person has made a decision for Christ, he cannot lose salvation?

Again I'm talking about salvation, NOT walking in Christ.

That is understood.

I wish you would stop trying to mix the two together

You haven't been following me well, if that is what you've concluded.

What I'm saying goes back to the idea that a Calvinist evangelist couldn't preach conversion to a non-believer since he could not assure him that he'd be saved. You seem to say that you will assure such a person of that salvation. I doubt it UNLESS you actually believe that no one can fall away, which is a view that is not normally held by freewillers. So tell me.

 

[stan1953]

Only God does know.
But I need to be sure of your position on this. Do you believe that once a person has made a decision for Christ, he cannot lose salvation?

No..the Bible teaches salvation is NOT secure. Heb 6:4-6

You haven't been following me well, if that is what you've concluded.

Trust me I'm following

What I'm saying goes back to the idea that a Calvinist evangelist couldn't preach conversion to a non-believer since he could not assure him that he'd be saved. You seem to say that you will assure such a person of that salvation. I doubt it UNLESS you actually believe that no one can fall away, which is a view that is not normally held by freewillers. So tell me.

You just did it again. Salvation is ONE event in our life, and our walk is something we experience POST salvation. You seem to feel salvation extends throughout one's entire life-cycle. It doesn't! It is a one time event. You should understand this based on OSAS doctrine. I think that is the crux of the matter. If you don't accept freewill you can accept election. Why is it you believe Heb 13:8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. and yet you can't accept that we have the same free will as Adam and Eve had?
That is a true mystery.

 

[Albion]

No..the Bible teaches salvation is NOT secure. Heb 6:4-6

and then there are the verses that teach the opposite. you know better than to cherry pick scripture.

You just did it again. Salvation is ONE event in our life, and our walk is something we experience POST salvation. You seem to feel salvation extends throughout one's entire life-cycle. It doesn't! It is a one time event.

Being saved could be a one-time event, but if it doesn't last, is that salvation?

If you don't accept freewill you can accept election. Why is it you believe Heb 13:8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. and yet you can't accept that we have the same free will as Adam and Eve had?

Leaving the earlier part of that aside, you don't think that anything changed when A and E sinned?

 

[stan1953]

and then there are the verses that teach the opposite. you know better than to cherry pick scripture.

Well maybe you could supply at least one...don't worry I won't label you as a cherry picker. BTW maybe you can enlighten us as to what Heb 6:4-6 is telling us if you think it was not in context to your question about losing salvation?

Being saved could be a one-time event, but if it doesn't last, is that salvation?

If what doesn't last? If it's a one time event, it's lasted. Your lack of understanding on this subject is disconcerting to me.

Leaving the earlier part of that aside, you don't think that anything changed when A and E sinned?

Well I would rather you answer but that is obviously not happening.
Obviously change happened when Adam and Eve ate from the TOKOGE.
Is it your normal tact to be dialectic or socratic in ALL your posts?

 

[Albion]

Well maybe you could supply at least one...don't worry I won't label you as a cherry picker.

All right.

If what doesn't last? If it's a one time event, it's lasted.

Let's not be evasive, please. Does being saved mean eternal life or not?

Well I would rather you answer but that is obviously not happening.
Obviously change happened when Adam and Eve ate

Then if change happened--i.e. sin--we are not just like Adam and Eve were when they were created. That answers your question about the loss of freewill.

 

[GraceSeeker]

The question asks about "most" Protestants. I would suggest that no one has done enough research on that particular question to answer what "most" believe. It is quite evident that there are many on both sides of this issue. So, apart from some scientifically conducted poll, no one is going to be able to answer the "most" part of the question definitively.

The research of what respective denominations believe is a bit easier. For instance, I will tell you that the various congregations in the Methodist/Wesleyan family are going to recognize the sovereignty of God, but believe God exercises his sovereignty by granting mankind genuine freewill to make choices, including the ability to reject God's offer of salvation if one so desires. As for other denominations, I'll leave that to the OP to research on his own.

In addition, here is what I find being taught at some of the larger independent congregations in the country:

The following is part of the statement of faith[/url] of Southeast Christian Church (Louisville, KY) the 5th largest protestant congregation in the country.

We believe the Bible teaches that man, created by God, willfully sinned against God and is consequently lost and without hope apart from Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12; Romans 3:23)

Willow Creek Community Church (South Barrington, IL), with Bill Hybels as pastor has the following in their statement of what they believe:

Salvation

The central purpose of God’s revelation in Scripture is to call people into fellowship with Him. Originally created to be in relationship with God, humans defied Him by going their own independent way, resulting in alienation from Him and the innate inability to please God. This fall took place at the beginning of human history; since then all people have suffered these consequences and are in need of the saving grace of God.

Of course, even though there are more and more people attending megachurches, the vast majority of Christians in the USA still attend congregations of 50 people or less. Many of them are of no denominational affiliation, and that is what makes answer the question about "most" so hard, because without a poll we really don't know.

 

[Albion]

The question asks about "most" Protestants. I would suggest that no one has done enough research on that particular question to answer what "most" believe. It is quite evident that there are many on both sides of this issue. So, apart from some scientifically conduct poll, no one is going to be able to answer the "most" part of the question definitively.