Do Most Protestants Disagree with the Notion of Free Will?

[Lee52]

Albion asked you about this, and I guess I will as well.

Was man not changed after the fall in Eden ?

Was there not immediate consequences ?




Adam and Eve hid from God. God no longer fellowshipped with them in the same manner. God pronounced curses on them. There is no Plan B, this was God's ONLY plan all along. Unless you are an Open Theist ?

Buzzzz! Wrong again!

GOD did not change.

Man did not change.

The relationship between GOD and man changed.

Man has always had the free will to make choices.

Free will does not have two or more meanings, it is what it is, like GOD it does not change.

Adam and Eve had the free will to obey GOD, it was a choice presented to them. Adam and Eve had the free will to disobey GOD, it was a choice presented to them. They chose to give in to temptation and disobey GOD. There was/is/will always be consequences to disobedience to GOD, as Satan, before mankind, indicates.

Mankind continues to be the same as Adam and Eve in the continuum of time regarding free will to make choices. The difference is in the relationship that they started out with and the relationship we start out with in regard to GOD. GOD indicates in His Word that HE always wanted/wants/will continue to want a loving relational fellowship with His creation-mankind, with whom He is in love. He built us to have a choice in the matter. When we, through Adam and Eve violated that relationship, GOD foreknew that we would, He provided a way of reconciliation of the relationship. At first, since mankind was too young to understand, HE made the Law and the Prophets. They pointed to the perfect restoration of that broken relationship: Jesus, fully GOD-fully man. And GOD, being the loving Creator, omnipotent, omnipresent, sovereign Father in Heaven that He is, decided from the dawn of time, to allow mankind to choose whether or not we accept His free gift of reconciling grace. GOD predestined each of us to have salvation in Christ Jesus and left it up to us whether we accept it or not.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Buzzzz! Wrong again!

GOD did not change.

Man did not change.

The relationship between GOD and man changed.

Man has always had the free will to make choices.

Free will does not have two or more meanings, it is what it is, like GOD it does not change.

Your contention that you are the same as Adam is preposterous ! Where do we go from here...? I am guessing you walk around naked ?



Adam did not sin before the fall, so you are in a sinless state ? Romans 5 tells us when sin entered the world, and Romans 8 tells us even creation itself groans under sin. You are telling us that you are without sin ?

 

[Lee52]

Your contention that you are the same as Adam is preposterous ! Where do we go from here...? I am guessing you walk around naked ?



Adam did not sin before the fall, so you are in a sinless state ? Romans 5 tells us when sin entered the world, and Romans 8 tells us even creation itself groans under sin. You are telling us that you are without sin ?

sigh.......there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.......

"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Mankind continues to be the same as Adam and Eve in the continuum of time regarding free will to make choices. The difference is in the relationship that they started out with and the relationship we start out with in regard to GOD.

 

[bottomofsandal]

sigh.......there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.......

"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Mankind continues to be the same as Adam and Eve in the continuum of time regarding free will to make choices. The difference is in the relationship that they started out with and the relationship we start out with in regard to GOD.

So, are you changing your mind, retracting what you said, or is it simply that don't have the chops for the discussion ? BTW, the namecalling, and belittling comments have become tiresome--- but in these heated discussions it is predictable that due to frustration some will resort to obfuscation, misdirection, jibber-jabber, and name-calling. Attack the pov, and not the individual. The individual gets assaulted when a structured, developed, systematic refutation cannot be assembled by the dissenter.



You said you are the same as Adam...now you say you aren't.

We are not interested in the #1 or #2 combo at Mickey D's !!!

Tell is how you are just like Adam. You said "man did not change".

Then you said freewill (like God) never changes. Explain your position.



You haven't shown us anything, so there is nothing to see, and nothing to refuse to see. Maybe you erroneously believe some of us to be of a certain Theological persuasion and you expected your quips to resonate with us. You are not building an argument, just posting silly comments. I will catch you later. I want to give others a chance to respond to some of these new posts and provide you with sufficient time to answer all the posts that have not been addressed yet.

 

[Albion]

Your contention that you are the same as Adam is preposterous ! Where do we go from here...?

Having tried our best, we conclude that there is no possibility of making progress on this topic (for all the reasons you recognize) and stop posting.

 

[Lee52]

bottomofsandal,
Do you even read anything posted? All I did was copy and paste what I had already posted that you either did not read or decided to be obtuse about. You have yet to post any Scriptures as requested by Stan and me.

You make mistatements and false accusations and attibutes about what he and I post.

In my opinion, you are merely seeking argument, not legitimate conversation and discussion to glorify Christ Jesus.

If I am not accurate in this opinion, then please, by all means post Scriptures to glorify Christ in your theology or doctrines.

 

[stan1953]

Let me see if I can make this simple, boiled down to basics.......

IF, GOD controls every action and every decision of every Christian, and by predestination, every potential Christian, then GOD preloaded the spiritual war that is being fought over our souls, making the war ludicrous and unnecessary.

Jesus died on the cross and His blood only covers those individuals that GOD predetermined that it would cover. Sounds like Jehovah Witness' 144,000. Or just the Mormons in good standing.

Since Jesus' blood only covers those already bound for eternity in Heaven, the elect, there was really no need to shed that blood on the cross for man's sin, unless, of course, GOD is a sadomasachistic being that enjoys making others suffer for eternity and enjoys dying a painful human death on the cross, just to be able to say that He understands our pain that we, who are not chosen ahead of time, will feel when we get to Heaven and He says He never knew us, adding to His sadistic pleasure.

To be willing to believe in predestination of the few, by GOD before time began, one must do some pretty limber gymnastics with all Scripture. Such as adding and subtracting meaning from the Greek and Hebrew words for "ALL" and "WHOMEVER" and "WHO EVER WILL"...........

I am just not into word gymnastics.

I am so thankful that my faith in GOD is sufficient to know that GOD is bigger and more powerful and more sovereign than to be only able to save a few.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[stan1953]

Yes, this is your second request...


Maybe the "freewill" explanation will arrive when the fallacious God-helping man-virtue of prevenient grace shows up.

Explanation is NOT required. Why would I try to explain why God made us the way He did. I am content in my position in Christ. Saying you will only believe one concept in scripture if another concept can ALSO be explained for you to accept, that you already don't, is basically telling God YOU are inerrant in scripture, and because you will not accept His concepts, they do NOT exist or are false teaching. It is great that our God is merciful and will forgive all sin but blasphemy against His Holy Spirit.
Saying something is fallacious doesn't make it so. My concept and belief in God and His Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence is based on Biblical precepts and concepts. They don't require a manmade explanation and description that uses a flower as it's analogy. What is fallacious, is using freewill and denying it's existance. Does this sound familiar? Take a look at 2 Tim 3:5

 

[stan1953]

There's that verse again...


If man is ALREADY free, why then does he need to be set free ?

First of all those are your words and your assessment of that verse. If you believe that is the understanding of what Christ said, which it is, why do you ask this question. IN context, Jesus was talking to Jews who believed, that following the written law made them free from sin and death. This was NOT a discussion about their Freewill. Context, context, context. Freewill was how we were created, in God's image. Body, Soul and Spirit. Within that triune image of God, is the essence of FREEWILL, which is also in God. To deny your own freewill is to deny a part of yourself that God Himself created.

 

[stan1953]

Albion asked you about this, and I guess I will as well.

Was man not changed after the fall in Eden ?

Was there not immediate consequences ?

Adam and Eve hid from God. God no longer fellowshipped with them in the same manner. God pronounced curses on them. There is no Plan B, this was God's ONLY plan all along. Unless you are an Open Theist ?

So you answer a request for scriptural support with 3 questions? Hmmmm.

Man was changed in His spiritual relationship with God. He disobeyed, he was no longer sinless. Being thrown out of Eden was the reult of Adam and Eve's sin.

The immediate consequence of their first sin was to see they were naked, so they hid. Now I ask you...was that a sin? Is it a sin for a married couple to be naked in front of each other? Or was their second sin lying? Was their hiding due to their guilt? Did they NOT know God was Omniscient and Omnipresent?

God did NOT pronounce curses on Adam and Eve...read your bible. This is a consistant tact with you. You embelish on what scripture says. God cursed the serpent in 3:14, then He cursed the ground in 3:17. Then God said in verse 22, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” and Genesis goes on to show what happened then as shown in verses 23 & 24... So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east sideof the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

At this point, God's Plan of Salvation came into effect. You can call it plan S if you will, it doesn't matter. You can call it a contingency plan or part of His original plan, not an issue. The point is, it was His plan. He was prepared.

 

[Lee52]

Perhaps we should have free will to read and heed the following?

Matthew 22:37

Mark 12:30

Luke 10:27

1 Timothy 1:5

2 Timothy 2:22

Hebrews 10:22

1 Peter 1:22

 

[bottomofsandal]

Perhaps we should have free will to read and heed the following?

1 Peter 1:22

1 Peter 1:1-22

New King James Version (NKJV)

Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
A Heavenly Inheritance

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen[a] you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us[b] they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.
Living Before God Our Father

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[c]
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
The Enduring Word

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,



Verse 1 & 2: written to the elect
Verse 3: God has begotten us (not man birthing himself)
Verse 4: Inheritance (related to God by God’s choice/adoption)
Verse 5: Kept by the power of God (not power of man)
Verse 13: Gird up your mind (not your freewill)
Verse 21: Through Him believe in God (God brings man to belief)
Verse 22: Obeying truth THROUGH THE SPIRIT (not the flesh)

 

[Lee52]

Ah,
But, NASB and ESV are considered by most Bible scholars to be the most accurate translations of the oldest available manuscripts currently available.

KJV and NKJV share a common bond. The original was written to please the King of England from manuscripts that have since been superceded by older manuscripts considered more accurate.

Nobody speaks Olde English these days. Could be something lost in the translation, especially since it was written to please a human king instead of GOD.

Just a thought.

 

[stan1953]

1 Peter 1:1-22
Verse 1 & 2: written to the elect
Verse 3: God has begotten us (not man birthing himself)
Verse 4: Inheritance (related to God by God’s choice/adoption)
Verse 5: Kept by the power of God (not power of man)
Verse 13: Gird up your mind (not your freewill)
Verse 21: Through Him believe in God (God brings man to belief)
Verse 22: Obeying truth THROUGH THE SPIRIT (not the flesh)

Verse 1 & 2; Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ:
To the temporary residents dispersed in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Verse 3; Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Verse 4; and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. 2 Tim 4:8, There is reserved for me in the future the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that day, and not only to me, but to all those who have loved His appearing. Nothing about God's choice or adoption here.

Verse 5; You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. We are protected because of our faith.

Verse 13; Therefore, with your minds ready for action, be serious and set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Yes we need to be ready which means we make the choice to do so NOW, which is our freewill. Freewill BEFORE action.

Verse 21; who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
We are believers because we entered the sheep pen through Christ, John 10:9, I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. We must do the action of entering, we are NOT dragged.

Verse 22; By obedience to the truth, having purified yourselves for sincere love of the brothers, love one another earnestly from a pure heart. Yes indeed, we obey through our Spirit, not the flesh. Our freewill causes us to obey the truth and purify ourselves, so we can sincerely love the brothers.

Holeman and NIV 2011 used above.

 

[Lee52]

As I said in the other thread about Free Will:

If predestination is true, those who believe it and yet still go about in evangelism among the unsaved, they will come to a point of saying to the unsaved, "Jesus died for your sinful nature, to reconcile you to GOD. Jesus' blood was poured out for your sins in substitution for your rightful condemnation."

Since you do not know whom it is that is predestined for Hell and whom are predestined for Heaven, when you tell one predestined for Hell by a sovereign GOD that Jesus died for their sins to reconcile them to GOD, you are a LIAR. Jesus did not die for their sins because they were created to go to Hell for eternity. For you to tell them otherwise make you a LIAR.

There is no easy way around that fact. If they were predestined for Hell, nothing can change that, not even Jesus' blood. Because to you, GOD cannot change His mind. He said what He said, period, end of story. No salvation to those predestined for destruction.

So, what do you do? Do you stop evangelism in your congregation? Or, does GOD only lead you to evangelize to the predestined to be saved, so that you never lie to the unsaved predestined to Hell?

Dilemmas of dilemmas.

We Wesleyan doctrine Christians never face that dilemma. We believe that the Bible is quite clear: John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

And so, we never have to lie to the unsaved because none of them are predestined out of Heaven's mercy and grace.
Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[stan1953]

As I said in the other thread about Free Will:

If predestination is true, those who believe it and yet still go about in evangelism among the unsaved, they will come to a point of saying to the unsaved, "Jesus died for your sinful nature, to reconcile you to GOD. Jesus' blood was poured out for your sins in substitution for your rightful condemnation."

Since you do not know whom it is that is predestined for Hell and whom are predestined for Heaven, when you tell one predestined for Hell by a sovereign GOD that Jesus died for their sins to reconcile them to GOD, you are a LIAR. Jesus did not die for their sins because they were created to go to Hell for eternity. For you to tell them otherwise make you a LIAR.

There is no easy way around that fact. If they were predestined for Hell, nothing can change that, not even Jesus' blood. Because to you, GOD cannot change His mind. He said what He said, period, end of story. No salvation to those predestined for destruction.

So, what do you do? Do you stop evangelism in your congregation? Or, does GOD only lead you to evangelize to the predestined to be saved, so that you never lie to the unsaved predestined to Hell?

Dilemmas of dilemmas.

We Wesleyan doctrine Christians never face that dilemma. We believe that the Bible is quite clear: John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

And so, we never have to lie to the unsaved because none of them are predestined out of Heaven's mercy and grace.
Be blessed,
Lee52

Lee

We also have to be able to read Romans 8:28-30 in right context.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Note the order...
Those who love Him God foreknew
Those who God foreknew He predestined to be conformed
Those He predestined He called
Those He called He justified
Those He justified He glorified

I think "predestined" is clear here in this context, as it is in the other 2 verses in the NT it is used in. "Foreknowledge" is also clear here, as it is in the 3 other NT verses it is used in. The NT principle is that "foreknowledge" always precedes "predestination". Everything in God's word is based on our free will acceptance of His grace and mercy. If it were not then why would we need an instruction manual. If we just do things because we are somehow specially ordained to be God's children, then why is the Bible full of instructions even for living in and by the Spirit and not under the written Law?
I find it curious that those who do not believe we have a FREE WILL, also do not believe that we can be filled with the Holy Spirit and manifest the gifts of the Holy Spirit in this day and age. Funny isn't it? You would think that would be the best way to test their theory?

 

[Albion]

As I said in the other thread about Free Will:

If predestination is true, those who believe it and yet still go about in evangelism among the unsaved, they will come to a point of saying to the unsaved, "Jesus died for your sinful nature, to reconcile you to GOD. Jesus' blood was poured out for your sins in substitution for your rightful condemnation."

Since you do not know whom it is that is predestined for Hell and whom are predestined for Heaven, when you tell one predestined for Hell by a sovereign GOD that Jesus died for their sins to reconcile them to GOD, you are a LIAR. Jesus did not die for their sins because they were created to go to Hell for eternity. For you to tell them otherwise make you a LIAR.

That's nonsense...unless the evangelist tells the unbeliever that he certainly IS among the elect. Now, THAT would be a lie.

IOW, you are able to craft this scenario your way ONLY by suggesting that the evangelist teach that which he would not and should not do. Beyond that, there would not be any Reformed Christians today if evangelists could not address the truth of election, and yet there are more than a hundred million by any count.

 

[stan1953]

That's nonsense...unless the evangelist tells the unbeliever that he certainly IS among the elect. Now, THAT would be a lie.

IOW, you are able to craft this scenario your way ONLY by suggesting that the evangelist teach that which he would not and should not do. Beyond that, there would not be any Reformed Christians today if evangelists could not address the truth of election, and yet there are more than a hundred million by any count.

Easy to say, Albion. How about some support? I find the scenario Lee puts forth rather plausable. How do you evangelize if you believe God chooses those who will be Christian? Does God tell you, as a harvester, who to go to harvest?
My father-in-law WAS reformed and yet never believed in the elect as you do.
I know of bible colleges that are reformed and do not teach election as you believe it. Exactly how many so-called reformed adherants really believe in election as you believe it?

 

[Albion]

Easy to say, Albion. How about some support? I find the scenario Lee puts forth rather plausable. How do you evangelize if you believe God chooses those who will be Christian? Does God tell you, as a harvester, who to go to harvest?

Oh please. Christ never commissioned anyone, and certainly not his Apostles, to go forth and pick and choose among prospective converts. They were to preach the Gospel to all nations and baptise. God knows his elect.

My father-in-law WAS reformed and yet never believed in the elect as you do.

That's unfortunate, I agree, but it doesn't have anything to do with the teachings. Many people of whatever denomination don't adhere to the official doctrinal positions of their churches.

I know of bible colleges that are reformed and do not teach election as you believe it.

Name a few for me.

Exactly how many so-called reformed adherants really believe in election as you believe it?

This is very standard stuff, Stan, not something I've worked up for myself from reading Calvin, etc. There are, however, Reformed churches that are more liberal and some that are more conservative or traditionalist, just as there is a division in almost all of the larger Christian denominations these days.

 

[stan1953]

Oh please. Christ never commissioned anyone, and certainly not his Apostles, to go forth and pick and choose among prospective converts. They were to preach the Gospel to all nations and baptise. God knows his elect.

Right and according to you He would have the Apostles waste their efforts on those that were not His so-called elect? According to you, we have no choice in our salvation, even though John 3:16 clearly points against that thought. Rev 22:17 also says Both the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Anyone who hears should say, “Come!” And the one who is thirsty should come. Whoever desires should take the living water as a gift.

That's unfortunate, I agree, but it doesn't have anything to do with the teachings. Many people of whatever denomination don't adhere to the official doctrinal positions of their churches.

Fortune really has nothing to do with it. You quoted a number that you can't really support. That would be the point of my comment. Opinions are one thing but introducing strawmen is not a valid response.

Name a few for me.

Sure.... just as soon as you support your claims.

This is very standard stuff, Stan, not something I've worked up for myself from reading Calvin, etc. There are, however, Reformed churches that are more liberal and some that are more conservative or traditionalist, just as there is a division in almost all of the larger Christian denominations these days.

According to you it's standard...are we to just take your word for it? It's very easy to have an opinion if you never have to back it up. That would be the point of forums I believe.