Do Modern Christians undervalue Christian History?

redleghunter

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The "pillar and foundation of truthis the church."
Which no doubt Eusebius is a great part of as Doctor of Church History:

And the words, "He will wash his garments in wine, and in the blood of the grape his girdle," will shew you surely how as in a secret way He suggests His mystic Passion, in which He washed His garment and vesture with the washing wherewith He is revealed to wash away the old stains of them that believe in Him. For with the wine which was indeed the symbol of His blood, He cleanses them that are baptized into His death, and believe on His |115 blood, of their old sins, washing them away and purifying (b) their old garments and vesture, so that they, ransomed by the precious blood of the divine spiritual grapes, and with the wine from this vine, "put off the old man with his deeds, and put on the new man which is renewed into knowledge in the image of Him that created him."

The words, "His eyes are cheerful from wine, and his teeth white as milk," again I think secretly reveal the (c) mysteries of the new Covenant of our Saviour. "His eyes are cheerful from wine," seems to me to shew the gladness of the mystic wine which He gave to His disciples, when He said, "Take, drink; this is my blood that is shed for you for the remission of sins: this do in remembrance of me." And, "His teeth are white as milk," shew the brightness and purity of the sacramental food. For again, He gave Himself (d) the symbols of His divine dispensation to His disciples, when He bade them make the likeness of His own Body. For since He no more was to take pleasure in bloody sacrifices, or those ordained by Moses in the slaughter of animals of various kinds, and was to give them bread to use as the symbol of His Body, He taught the purity and brightness of such food by saying, "And his teeth are white as milk." This also another prophet has recorded, where he says, "Sacrifice and offering hast thou not required, but a body hast thou prepared for me." (Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica Book VIII.1)
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_de_10_book8.htm
 
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Mountainmike

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There are too many issues in all of these posts, to tackle all of them

I think You are actually agreeing with me, on the issue that led to my statement:

That we only know which are gospels and the authors by reference to such as you say Iraneus, which was the point I made,

So that the idea of considering only scripture in absence of church and fathers is a non starter in historical terms,

Without the fathers and church, there is a problem knowing which of a myriad of books are scripture. There are a lot of others that claimed apostolicity. .

The decisions did not make them inspired - it just identified them so - the power to bind and loose is to rule on what is true law and doctrine.

I think we agree on that much....

But you also appear to make the assumption that all in tradition ended in scripture. I can disprove that fairly easily both OT and NT , perhaps here is not the place. But regardless of that. One thing scripture evidently does not carry is its own meaning. Which is the reason why people disagree. Tradition carries meaning, and so scripture is not enough,



 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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While Calvin and Luther might have made appeals to the fathers a part of their own work, I don't find that common in today's Calvinists or Lutherans who focus much more on their founder than the general Patristic consensus.

It's not surprising that Lutherans talk more about Luther than Saint John Damascene.
 
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redleghunter

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There are too many issues in all of these posts, to tackle all of them

I think You are actually agreeing with me, on the issue that led to my statement:

Not quite. You made several statements which went unsubstantiated. Here are a few you did not respond to which sheds a lot of light on some of your assertions.



 
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Hawkins

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I was asked a friend if she knew about the Council of Nicea and the Nicene Creed and she had no idea what was that about. Have churches underestimated the Church Fathers and important events in Christianity?

That question boils down to whether one has to understand history of Christianity in order to be saved. The answer is no. One can be saved as long as he's calling upon the name of Jesus Christ. It's more like a minimum requirement of savability. However,

1 Corinthians 3:2 (NIV2011)
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

We all need to grow up in Christ. We need to secure our salvation thus to equip ourselves. We thus need to learn more.

Ephesians 6:11,13 (NIV2011)
Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
 
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Not David

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I never said that one is saved by History. It doesn't justify ignorance tho.
 
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redleghunter

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I really have not seen that at least on this site. It seems Lutherans avoid quoting Luther and seem to distance themselves from his works.

Most Calvinists here quote Augustine and other fathers more than the Institutes.
 
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Tayla

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I was asked a friend if she knew about the Council of Nicea and the Nicene Creed and she had no idea what was that about. Have churches underestimated the Church Fathers and important events in Christianity?
The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches, and some others value church history. Some of the protestant churches, not so much.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I really have not seen that at least on this site. It seems Lutherans avoid quoting Luther and seem to distance themselves from his works.

Most Calvinists here quote Augustine and other fathers more than the Institutes.
Well, despite the name, it is Christ's Church, not Luther's. BTW, Luther quoted the Church Father's often, and so do Confessional Lutherans; we go to the source as they say. LOL.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's not surprising that Lutherans talk more about Luther than Saint John Damascene.

Luther is useful only insofar as he is in agreement with the Confessions. Luther isn't what defines Lutheranism, the Confessions do; and you are probably more likely to find Augustine quoted in the Confessions than Luther.

Of course we will refer to Luther, if it seems appropriate, and if we think it may be relevant or helpful. But as Mark said, it is Christ's Church, not Luther's Church.

Personally, here on CF, I have quoted and referred to a lot of different writers, from a lot of different backgrounds. I've probably quoted from C.S. Lewis, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Herbert McCabe as much as I have Luther, if not more. Not to mention Isaac of Nineveh, Augustine, Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, Ignatius of Antioch, and John Chrysostom. And I've referred to Theophan the Recluse and Kallistos Ware a number of times over the years. If I think there is value in what is said, I am likely to quote or refer to it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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thecolorsblend

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I was asked a friend if she knew about the Council of Nicea and the Nicene Creed and she had no idea what was that about. Have churches underestimated the Church Fathers and important events in Christianity?
Traditional Christians value Church History but a lot of evangelical, un-denominational and "Bible-only" types tend not to. Sad, really.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Do you think it inaccurate to suggest Lutherans as a whole have probably produced more literature regarding their literature (which has to include Luther or as you mention the Confessions) than that with regards to Patristics as a whole?

Seems to me the scholarship which focuses primarily on Patristics comes from Orthodox and Catholic writers and Publishers. The major series of Patristic translations as a whole certainty does (Ancient Christian writers, Fathers of the Church CUA, Popular Patristics).

This isn't so much a criticism, as it is my general observation from listening to Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox figures. I don't think it unfair to suggest Orthodox and Catholics put more stress on the Fathers and what they had to say when compared to Protestants, who by in large put more stress on the bible. To that regard Protestants as a whole tend to produce more commentaries on the bible than any other group which makes sense given Sola Scriptura.
 
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redleghunter

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This might prove interesting when you have the time.

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/haddington-house-journal/05_025.pdf
 
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BobRyan

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I was asked a friend if she knew about the Council of Nicea and the Nicene Creed and she had no idea what was that about. Have churches underestimated the Church Fathers and important events in Christianity?

As for "undervaluing Christian history" --

Yes I think the popular tendency is to ignore the Christian struggles and the values of the faith in the NT text, the faith and doctrine of the NT writers and to ignore the lessons learned from the 1260 years of the dark ages persecution of the saints.

Ignoring even more material - the tendency to also ignore
The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
The Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19
And even the CCC on the TEN commandments
 
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hedrick

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I tend to quote the Bible and commentaries here mostly, just because that's what most CF readers care about For myself I do a lot of reading about theology from various periods I often consult modern writers. In my tradition theological writers typically look at both early and Reformation sources. Calvin is a major authority for many liberal Reformed theologians, of course.
 
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