Do Modalists go to hell???

[WileyCoyote]

I was wondering this yesterday. Do they? I was wondering which scriptures teach that you HAVE to believe that God is three persons yet one God (not forms, modes, etc etc) in order to go to heaven. I know Evangelical Christianity teaches that you must believe this to go to heaven but does scripture teach this? Oneness Pentecostals are modalistic in their doctrinal position. Are they going to hell?

The way I see it, scripture teaches that we know in part. That tells me NOBODY has a 100% accurate view on the nature of God. We are ALL wrong in one way or another when it comes to God. God is so vast that we could probably be in heaven with Him a billion years and we would still be learning new things about Him. Modalists clearly have it wrong, but so do we. Must we be 100% accurate when it comes to the nature of God before we qualify for heaven? I thought salvation by grace through faith gets a person to heaven. This is something that has been on my mind since yesterday. So, do Modalists go to hell? Back up your arguments with scripture.



Discuss

 

[mrhappy3]

I was wondering this yesterday. Do they? I was wondering which scriptures teach that you HAVE to believe that God is three persons yet one God (not forms, modes, etc etc) in order to go to heaven. I know Evangelical Christianity teaches that you must believe this to go to heaven but does scripture teach this? Oneness Pentecostals are modalistic in their doctrinal position. Are they going to hell?

The way I see it, scripture teaches that we know in part. That tells me NOBODY has a 100% accurate view on the nature of God. We are ALL wrong in one way or another when it comes to God. God is so vast that we could probably be in heaven with Him a billion years and we would still be learning new things about Him. Modalists clearly have it wrong, but so do we. Must we be 100% accurate when it comes to the nature of God before we qualify for heaven? I thought salvation by grace through faith gets a person to heaven. This is something that has been on my mind since yesterday. So, do Modalists go to hell? Back up your arguments with scripture.



Discuss

NO.

Thats just in the head. The trinity is a mystery anyway. They believe Jesus is "more" God anyway...they go over the top with it.

To think that puts head knowledge above heart knowledge.

He said come as a child.

 

[WileyCoyote]

NO.

Thats just in the head. The trinity is a mystery anyway. They believe Jesus is "more" God anyway...they go over the top with it.

To think that puts head knowledge above heart knowledge.

He said come as a child.

I agree.

 

[Yitzchak]

It is possible to be in error about some things and not go to hell over those errors.

I think the reason why some in the church say that this particular belief is so serious is because it deals with who God is.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Why would modalists go to hell for believing modalism? It's one thing to be wrong in your belief, it's another thing to go to hell for it.

Here's my thought. People go to hell because they are sinners and have a fallen nature, not because they are modalists.

 

[JimB]

I was wondering this yesterday. Do they? I was wondering which scriptures teach that you HAVE to believe that God is three persons yet one God (not forms, modes, etc etc) in order to go to heaven. I know Evangelical Christianity teaches that you must believe this to go to heaven but does scripture teach this? Oneness Pentecostals are modalistic in their doctrinal position. Are they going to hell?

The way I see it, scripture teaches that we know in part. That tells me NOBODY has a 100% accurate view on the nature of God. We are ALL wrong in one way or another when it comes to God. God is so vast that we could probably be in heaven with Him a billion years and we would still be learning new things about Him. Modalists clearly have it wrong, but so do we. Must we be 100% accurate when it comes to the nature of God before we qualify for heaven? I thought salvation by grace through faith gets a person to heaven. This is something that has been on my mind since yesterday. So, do Modalists go to hell? Back up your arguments with scripture.



Discuss

I agree WC. There is no direct mention of the Trinity in the Bible, simply allusions. The closest scripture that mentions a Trinity is 1 John 5.7 which is a spurious translation in the KJV (see footnote HERE) according to scholars of Bible languages and the NT canon. There is an interesting article on this HERE.

What I believe, at the risk of violating the rules of this forum, is that God has chosen to reveal Himself to us as Trinity but to put God into any box (even a three-cornered one) is to diminish Him. I do believe, though, that God has chosen to reveal Himself to us as three persons but to say that that is all that God is is IMO incorrect. IOW, God is Trinity, but that’s not all that He is.

So, are Oneness Christians (Arian / Modalist) truly Christian? Of course they are. They may have their theology a bit confused (but then who doesn’t?) and may be branded heretic by more orthodox believers but, despite their doctrinal beliefs, many of them are filled with the Spirit, heal the sick, receive answers to prayer, and have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen,
not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
~C.S. Lewis​

 

[Yitzchak]

I agree WC. There is no direct mention of the Trinity in the Bible, simply allusions. The closest scripture that mentions a Trinity is 1 John 5.7 which is a spurious translation in the KJV (see footnote HERE) according to scholars of Bible languages and the NT canon. There is an interesting article on this HERE.

What I believe, at the risk of violating the rules of this forum, is that God has chosen to reveal Himself to us as Trinity but to put God into any box (even a three-cornered one) is to diminish Him. I do believe, though, that God has chosen to reveal Himself to us as three persons but to say that that is all that God is is IMO incorrect. IOW, God is Trinity, but that’s not all that He is.

So, are Oneness Christians (Arian / Modalist) truly Christian? Of course they are. They may have their theology a bit confused (but then who doesn’t?) and may be branded heretic by more orthodox believers but, despite their doctrinal beliefs, many of them are filled with the Spirit, heal the sick, receive answers to prayer, and have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen,
not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
~C.S. Lewis​

Good post. A lot to think about.

 

[WileyCoyote]

Thank you for your answers. I'm glad folks here believe that Modalists do not go to hell simply because they believe God is three different modes.

 

[Enkil]

So, are Oneness Christians (Arian / Modalist) truly Christian? Of course they are. They may have their theology a bit confused (but then who doesn’t?) and may be branded heretic by more orthodox believers but, despite their doctrinal beliefs, many of them are filled with the Spirit, heal the sick, receive answers to prayer, and have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

~Jim

The Trinity is obvious in scripture, and it is a teaching that you can trace even into Genesis. While it is hard to comprehend the nature of God, it is not hard to understand that there are Three in One. Simply saying that the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible doesn't justify them. Before I became a Christian, I spent months and months studying every doctrine to determine the truth. The Trinity is an essential truth of the Bible, and if denied represents a grave heresy. This isn't putting God into a "box", it is recognizing the reality of what He has revealed about Himself. It is unwise to justify heresy or to spread it.

If they claim to be "healing the sick", then they are saying the Holy Spirit is closer to them than He is to other Christians who understand the doctrine of the Trinity. One would assume, therefore, that God would correct them from their heresy. This does not happen. In fact, they add more heresies through their prophecy as time passes. God ignores their error completely; He does not warn them, nor does He take the time to instruct them. He simply lets it be, "healing the sick", so you say, while they deny an essential part of reality. This is a serious problem we arrive at with logic. If God is right there, and manifesting powerfully through them, why is it that they continue to have false doctrines? Does God not care about people claiming to have the power of God but speaking false things about His nature?

Edit: That said, no one can know forsure the ultimate fate of a man's soul. God has all authority and can do whatever He pleases. However, to claim that heresy does not matter is itself a heretical idea. We should be seeking the truth, not in justifying dangerous delusions.

 

[Tobias]

The Trinity is obvious in scripture, and it is a teaching that you can trace even into Genesis. While it is hard to comprehend the nature of God, it is not hard to understand that there are Three in One. Simply saying that the word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible doesn't justify them. Before I became a Christian, I spent months and months studying every doctrine to determine the truth. The Trinity is an essential truth of the Bible, and if denied represents a grave heresy. This isn't putting God into a "box", it is recognizing the reality of what He has revealed about Himself. It is unwise to justify heresy or to spread it.

If they claim to be "healing the sick", then they are saying the Holy Spirit is closer to them than He is to other Christians who understand the doctrine of the Trinity. One would assume, therefore, that God would correct them from their heresy. This does not happen. In fact, they add more heresies through their prophecy as time passes. God ignores their error completely; He does not warn them, nor does He take the time to instruct them. He simply lets it be, "healing the sick", so you say, while they deny an essential part of reality. This is a serious problem we arrive at with logic. If God is right there, and manifesting powerfully through them, why is it that they continue to have false doctrines? Does God not care about people claiming to have the power of God but speaking false things about His nature?

Edit: That said, no one can know forsure the ultimate fate of a man's soul. God has all authority and can do whatever He pleases. However, to claim that heresy does not matter is itself a heretical idea. We should be seeking the truth, not in justifying dangerous delusions.

Interesting. I don't think the Trinity is that obvious in the Bible. Not to mention there were quite a few different opinions about the nature of God before the Counsel of Nicea declared many of them heretical.

Nor is it obvious that the 66 books of the protestant Bible are the complete knowledge of God on this planet. God never said that they are. When did God make it a requirement that we believe in the Bible? Where did He explain which parts we are to understand in a literal sense, and which are poetic or figurative?

It could be that God doesn't correct doctrinal error, because our knowledge of Him is limited and He lets us believe what we want. It would make sense then that He does come to people and ministers to them despite what they believe. Why would God reject anybody, simply because they can't pass a test and rattle off a list of things Man has decided are necessary for us to believe about Him? God looks on the heart, not the knowledge in our brains.

 

[mrhappy3]

I used to go to a oneness-Jesus only Church.

They are obsessed with 3 things, the Godhead, baptism and tongues.

 

[pdudgeon]

i wouldn't be as concerned with how or what they believe as i would with what they are rejecting.

Jesus told his disciples to accept the Holy Spirit and to wait for Him, and it was His express desire that they do so.

What....do they think they know better than God?

 

[Enkil]

It could be that God doesn't correct doctrinal error, because our knowledge of Him is limited and He lets us believe what we want. It would make sense then that He does come to people and ministers to them despite what they believe. Why would God reject anybody, simply because they can't pass a test and rattle off a list of things Man has decided are necessary for us to believe about Him? God looks on the heart, not the knowledge in our brains.

Of course one would like to believe this, as it doesn't require us to be introspective of ourselves. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are absolute beliefs one must have as a Christian, and to spread false-doctrine or accept false teachers is a sin to be feared. For there will come a time where people with "itching ears" will gather around themselves false teachers. It seems good. It seems great. But that is not listed in the Bible as what qualifies something as true.

 

[mrhappy3]

I can see the sense in both the above comments.

I have believed stuff, forgotten stuff, rememembered stuff, kept stuff, thrown out stuff, got confused on stuff...sometimes my head hurts.

Thank God he won't judge me on my "head" alone.

I know stuff in my heart, but can't break it down, I believe it though...and I keep it to myself in most instances.

 

[WileyCoyote]

Of course one would like to believe this, as it doesn't require us to be introspective of ourselves. However, it doesn't change the fact that there are absolute beliefs one must have as a Christian. . .

I agree. Open a Bible. Flip through Genesis all the way through Revelations. That is what a Christian is to believe. However, the Nicene Creed, Chalcedonian Creed, etc etc were not included in the canon and I cannot find them in my Bible. Are they in yours?

. . .and to spread false-doctrine or accept false teachers is a sin to be feared.

Yep. But the Word, not some man-made creed, should be the one to judge who is a false teacher and what is false doctrine.

For there will come a time where people with "itching ears" will gather around themselves false teachers.

But then, some people come to their doctrinal conclusions from an honest study of scripture, even if they may be wrong. Not everyone who disagrees with you has "itching ears".

It seems good. It seems great. But that is not listed in the Bible as what qualifies something as true.

You are assuming these people are only believing what they believe because it seems good to them. That is judging a person's motives, no? Unless you work for some psychic hotline, there is no way you can know a person's motives. Believe it or not, there are people out there who are sincere in their beliefs and are not just looking for doctrines that make them feel good.

 

[River-Dweller]

Oneness Pentecostals preach a false Christ because the Christ they preach cannot be the son of God since he has no father.

That doesn't mean that someone can't be a part of a Oneness Pentecostal church and be saved but it does mean they have to believe something different than what the church teaches. It's the same with Catholics and Mormons.

You can't believe in modalism and believe that Jesus is the Son of God. That's a huge problem.

They are serving a different God than I am since they're not serving the trinity.

 

[Enkil]

I agree. Open a Bible. Flip through Genesis all the way through Revelations. That is what a Christian is to believe. However, the Nicene Creed, Chalcedonian Creed, etc etc were not included in the canon and I cannot find them in my Bible. Are they in yours?

Are you denying the Trinity then?

Yep. But the Word, not some man-made creed, should be the one to judge who is a false teacher and what is false doctrine.But then, some people come to their doctrinal conclusions from an honest study of scripture, even if they may be wrong. Not everyone who disagrees with you has "itching ears". You are assuming these people are only believing what they believe because it seems good to them. That is judging a person's motives, no? Unless you work for some psychic hotline, there is no way you can know a person's motives. Believe it or not, there are people out there who are sincere in their beliefs and are not just looking for doctrines that make them feel good.

You do not understand human nature which can easily be discovered through simple introspection of your own soul. Man by nature has a stronger drive towards self-delusion and personal glorification than he does for seeking the truth. Often times, almost everything a man believes "seems good to them". The question is, do they believe it because it seems good? Or do they believe it because it seems true, and therefore it is good? The difference is important.

In this case, the Bible is very clear that we should not accept "another Gospel" that was not preached to us within the Bible. It is constant in its warnings against being deceived by people who would twist the Gospel into something it isn't. Why then would we be OK with someone denying an essential part of the Christian religion? The Trinity cannot be debated. Its evidence is clear. If you want me to prove it to you then I shall. However, if you are a Christian you should know better.

Whether or not someone "studied hard" to get the wrong answer doesn't change anything. Whether or not they are sincere in their self-delusion doesn't change the fact that they are deluded. We do not live by delusions, we live by a constant seeking of the Truth. To fail in this sacred duty is to fail at living.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The Trinity is the central doctrine of all Christianity.

What I mean by that is this... Christianity revolves around God and who he is. All truth, all doctrine, everything ultimately springs from who God is. Every major doctrine of Christianity is affected by the Trinity in some way.

The Trinity is the mystery that makes sense of all the other mysteries. More over, the Trinity is not merely some random thing that God simply chose to use to reveal himself. The Trinity is fundamentally who God is.


Modalism is a heresy. However, I don't believe that all heretics necessarily go to hell. There are many intervening factors that we simply can't know, that only God knows.

The fact that someone believes a heresy does not necessarily mean that they are unsaved.

However, heresies are always a hinderance and a danger to those entrapped in them.

Heresies regarding who God is will almost necessarily affect how they see and understand God and how they relate to him.

For example, theologies that see God as completely solitary in essense almost always tend to see God as more harsh, more unforgiving, more unknowable, and more distant. These groups are usually therefore more legalistic and more harsh themselves.
(I suppose one of the saving graces for people here is the human ability to believe contradictory things, and to over-look inconsistencies )

 

[stfrancisfan1215]

Do I believe Oneness Pentecostals are going to Hell? No. My grandparents are Oneness Pentecostals and some of the godliest people I know. They have great faith in Jesus Christ, and I believe they will go to Heaven. I think their doctrines are seriously flawed, but I don't that bars them from Heaven.
That being said, Oneness Pentecostals teach that the vast majority of the world is going to Hell, because they haven't been baptized in Jesus's name and don't speak in tongues. So my grandparents probably believe that I and the rest of our family is going to Hell.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Do I believe Oneness Pentecostals are going to Hell? No. My grandparents are Oneness Pentecostals and some of the godliest people I know. They have great faith in Jesus Christ, and I believe they will go to Heaven. I think their doctrines are seriously flawed, but I don't that bars them from Heaven.
That being said, Oneness Pentecostals teach that the vast majority of the world is going to Hell, because they haven't been baptized in Jesus's name and don't speak in tongues. So my grandparents probably believe that I and the rest of our family is going to Hell.

Funny how that works isn't it

Anyway... Christianity as a Faith, is defined by its doctrines. Thus a person must believe said doctrines in order to be an orthodox Christian.

However, salvation is ultimately not obtained by knowledge. This is a critical problem for a lot of modern Christian sects and their various theologies. Salvation is obtained by relationship. Now, of course, knowledge is of critical importance to relationship on some level... it is very difficult to be in relationship with what you do not know, but it is also, on a certain level, possible.

The best example of this is an infant. An infant has an intimate relationship with his mother, but at the same time has almost no direct knowledge about his mother.

Correct knowledge is always a help and it always leads us deeper into relationship, and incorrect knowledge is always a hinderance.

The idea that knowledge is required for salvation, or is the means of obtaining salvation, is somewhat ironically, the fundamental root of the heresy of gnosticism.

It is, however, also an implicit belief in most modern Christian theology. Even the evangelicals who are so fond of saying like "Christianity isn't a religion its a relationship" and the phrase "personal relationship with Jesus".. often still frequently implicitly place knowledge as a prerequisite for salvation.

They frequently do, however, try to escape the quandries this creates by holding the related belief that those incapable of knowledge are automatically saved by virtue of the fact that they can't be responsible for what they couldn't know. This idea, however, has its own set of quandries.