Do messianic jews believe in the trinity?

[yonah_mishael]

What do you mean by a deist? I thought he was Christian.

That's the myth that's recently been promulgated among certain groups of Christians who want to say that the USA is a Christian nation founded by Christians. It's actually a nation in which the separation of Church and State was always important, and there were certainly Christians among the founders - but there was a large number of deists.

Deists believe that God created the world and left impressions of his own character within it. They do not believe in any of the miracles recorded in the Bible (generally) or in any written revelation from God. They believe that the creation itself is the only revelation and word of God that has or ever will be given - and that we need to learn about God by what we find in nature. This is why they wrote frequently of "Nature's God", meaning the God that is revealed in nature and his not personally revealed in any of the religions of the world.

Notable deists among the founders were Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson (who was a deist but apparently had misgivings at points in his life), Benjamin Franklin and George Washington (yes, that's true).

 

[TanteBelle]

That's the myth that's recently been promulgated among certain groups of Christians who want to say that the USA is a Christian nation founded by Christians. It's actually a nation in which the separation of Church and State was always important, and there were certainly Christians among the founders - but there was a large number of deists.

Deists believe that God created the world and left impressions of his own character within it. They do not believe in any of the miracles recorded in the Bible (generally) or in any written revelation from God. They believe that the creation itself is the only revelation and word of God that has or ever will be given - and that we need to learn about God by what we find in nature. This is why they wrote frequently of "Nature's God", meaning the God that is revealed in nature and his not personally revealed in any of the religions of the world.

Notable deists among the founders were Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson (who was a deist but apparently had misgivings at points in his life), Benjamin Franklin and George Washington (yes, that's true).

I think all in all, America was founded as a Christian nation. What exactly that means, i guess is up for debate. But then again, I am a believer in the prophecy of British-Israel (NOT THE GROUP BRITISH-ISRAEL; heard some very blasphemous things about them as my folks looked into them years ago).

I have read several things about George Washington that kind made you scratch your head. Guess I'll have to delve into American history from a faith point of view.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Information from the World Union of Deists regarding the deist ties of the founders of the United States of America: Deist Roots of America

 

[Conor B]

I get that from the CF rules too, but I'm not quite there but I'm not non-trin either.
About a 7-8 months ago, someone here told me I was a modalist (and I guess this was deemed heresy back when the RCC had all the answers) but that's how I see the Trinity. God is One. He can't split himself up into 3 distinct persons. That just doesn't compute. So I do not have the normal Christian view of the Trinity (and it's still evolving in my pea-brain from its embryonic stage).

When I first became a Christian I couldn't get my head around the Trinity either. Like you said it simply did not compute.

However, over time and with continued study it began to compute and without my notice the Trinity became a certainty to me not only in my mind but in my heart. I suggest you don't worry too much about the subject just trust God and study His word and let the Holy Spirit do the rest!

 

[yedida]

When I first became a Christian I couldn't get my head around the Trinity either. Like you said it simply did not compute.

However, over time and with continued study it began to compute and without my notice the Trinity became a certainty to me not only in my mind but in my heart. I suggest you don't worry too much about the subject just trust God and study His word and let the Holy Spirit do the rest!

Thanks, bro. That's all I can do. It's enough to know that my inability to put it all together does not hinder him in the least. And so I rest assured that He is what He is whether I understand it or not, so all is good.

 

[GuardianShua]

Thanks, bro. That's all I can do. It's enough to know that my inability to put it all together does not hinder him in the least. And so I rest assured that He is what He is whether I understand it or not, so all is good.

You have itchy ears.

 

[yedida]

You have itchy ears.

Why do you insist on insulting me? What have I done to deserve your insults?

 

[chunkofcoal]

I found something that gave me food for thought in regards to the Trinity.


To Love A Fellow Jew: Ahavas Yisrael And Ahavas Hashem

Loving a fellow Jew and loving G-d
The Connection Between Ahavas Yisrael and Ahavas HaShem

The Zohar teaches that G-d, Torah and Israel are one. it therefore follows that the love for G-d (ahavas HaShem), the love for Torah (ahavas HaTorah), and ahavas Yisrael are one.[1] Since the essence of G-d, Torah and Israel is one, and an essence is indivisible; therefore, when one grasps a part of the essence one has the whole essence.[2]
For this reason:
Ahavas Yisrael is an indicator for ahavas HaShem, i.e., if a person is lacking in ahavas Yisrael, he is lacking in ahavas HaShem,[3] for one who loves the father should surely love the children.[4]
In ahavas Yisrael lies ahavas HaShem, i.e., ahavas Yisrael is a demonstration of ahavas HaShem. The soul of a Jew is literally a "part of the Divine"[5] as explained above in Tanya, chapter 32, and therefore when one loves the Divine within the Jew, that is actually ahavas HaShem.[6]
Ahavas Yisrael is the vessel for ahavas HaShem.[7] Through practicing ahavas Yisrael, one will eventually come to ahavas HaShem and ahavas HaTorah. One who works on his ahavas Yisrael will reach great heights in his ahavas HaShem.[8]

Isn't that along the lines of what Yeshua was saying here?


Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your father, you would love Me, for I went forth and came from God; for I did not come of Myself, but He sent Me.


Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one!

Joh 16:26-27 At that day you will ask in My name; and I do not say to you that I will pray to the Father for you, (27) for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came out from God.

 

[Bridgit]

That's an interesting thread. I, also, am interested in knowing how common or different the beliefs of messianic jews are from the gentile christians.

All true followers of Jesus Christ should have the same christian beliefs, don't you think so?

 

[visionary]

That's an interesting thread. I, also, am interested in knowing how common or different the beliefs of messianic jews are from the gentile christians.

All true followers of Jesus Christ should have the same christian beliefs, don't you think so?

The difference can be found in the things are still practiced from Mount Sinai, and those that are found in RRC.

 

[EyesOfKohl]

I'm non-trinitarian. How I view Elah & Yeshua is like a King and a Prince. The King has his throne and the prince is seated next to the King. The King gives his word (command) to the Prince to do his will and he will. The King appoints the Prince to look after a part of his kingdom, so he has command over it, but he is still answerable and under the will of the King. I could use scripture to explain further, but last time I did that, I was warned by staff...

An interesting thing would be to look at the 4th century Nazarene's (Not to be confused with the modern Nazarene church). They were an early sect who in many ways share similarity with Messianics.

A few interesting writings to look at what the early Nazarene's believed in -

They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion – except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.
—Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2

They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Christ; but since they are still fettered by the Law – circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest – they are not in accord with the Christians.
—Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.4

They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do.
—Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2

The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.
—Jerome, On. Is. 8:14

 

[TanteBelle]

That's an interesting thread. I, also, am interested in knowing how common or different the beliefs of messianic jews are from the gentile christians.

All true followers of Jesus Christ should have the same christian beliefs, don't you think so?

Core beliefs? Yes. Those that are not 'doubtful disputations' as Paul describes some to be. Unfortunately, the issue of the trinity is a sticky one as scripture doesn't just lay it out for us to follow. It doesn't say that Yeshua is the same personage as the Father and that they are the one being. To be fair to the argument, it doesn't say outrightly that they are not the same being. It leaves it vague and up to the individual to try figure out. It'd be a whole lot easier if it were laid out plainly, joining all the dots for us, but it doesn't. This is just one issues where believers need to work patiently with other believers, realising that they're not God and therefore can't know it 100%. I know my views on the trinity aren't common at all. I've been called all sorts of horrible things for having them. But it's learning to be patient and honest about the fact that we could all be wrong! LOL!

 

[visionary]

I'm non-trinitarian. How I view Elah & Yeshua is like a King and a Prince. The King has his throne and the prince is seated next to the King. The King gives his word (command) to the Prince to do his will and he will. The King appoints the Prince to look after a part of his kingdom, so he has command over it, but he is still answerable and under the will of the King. I could use scripture to explain further, but last time I did that, I was warned by staff...

An interesting thing would be to look at the 4th century Nazarene's (Not to be confused with the modern Nazarene church). They were an early sect who in many ways share similarity with Messianics.

A few interesting writings to look at what the early Nazarene's believed in -

They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion – except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.
—Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2

They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Christ; but since they are still fettered by the Law – circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest – they are not in accord with the Christians.
—Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.4

They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do.
—Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2

The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.
—Jerome, On. Is. 8:14

May I quote you on another thread.. I collect "Messianic History" and this will fit right in..

 

[EyesOfKohl]

May I quote you on another thread.. I collect "Messianic History" and this will fit right in..

You're most welcome to

 

[IndieVisible]

So, when Jesus (according to John) was preparing to return to heaven, he told his disciples that he would go to the Father and send them "another comforter," and he told them that he was speaking about the Holy Spirit - really, he was saying that he would go to the Father and send the Father, but there was no going to anyone, since Jesus was the Father, and Jesus sent himself back to the disciples, and Jesus said that he was his own beloved son at his baptism, and the Father descended as a dove/pigeon at his baptism on himself in the waters, and ....

Modalism just confuses the brain and dilutes the stories told in the New Testament. Viewed in that way, the stories just don't make sense to me in the least. I definitely see three "persons" playing (taking part) in the New Testament.

Well put. Without distinct "persons" you get more like Jesus saying in His best "Terminator" impersonation, "I'LL BE BACK"

 

[SharonL]

I always remember the way it was explained to me. The Trinity is like an apple - the core is God, the meat is Jesus and the skin is the Holy Spirit - but yet it is one. 3 in One.

I went to a MJ church with a friend of mine and I have never been so blessed. You could feel the Spirit of the Living God all over that room, see it on their faces and you knew Jesus was right by their side. Beautiful.

 

[yedida]

I always remember the way it was explained to me. The Trinity is like an apple - the core is God, the meat is Jesus and the skin is the Holy Spirit - but yet it is one. 3 in One.

I went to a MJ church with a friend of mine and I have never been so blessed. You could feel the Spirit of the Living God all over that room, see it on their faces and you knew Jesus was right by their side. Beautiful.

The services can be very special. Glad you were so blessed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by yonah_mishael It's a good question, I think. I've heard a lot of varied opinions here on the forum, but I'm not sure who believes what regarding the Trinity.

I think you can tell from their icons. Non-Trinitarians use a different one
than Trinitarans

I think that the standard MJ position is that the traditional teachings on the Trinity of the Christian Church are basically right. Is that correct?

That's my understanding, and isn't that in the forum rules somewhere
Touse the scroll icon instead of the menorah, one must accept the trinity?

I am also confused on that. Non-trinitrairians are considerded as "unorthodox" according to CF. I could be wrong tho.