Do Lutherans Pray for the Dead?

[EvangelCatholic]

This question of praying for the dead was posted on the General Theology forum. Our Confessions say that prayers for the dead are "neither useless nor prohibited" Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XXIV:94-96.

This is why I so admire the Lutheran faith. We leave open to individual expression of piety and prayer those subjects that are not entirely clear scripturally.

Our funeral liturgy specifically includes prayers for the deceased in several places and locations [church/ graveyard].

Any thoughts?

 

[Tigger45]

I agree, adiaphora within Lutheranism seems wise to me. Concerning those things that are neither condemned nor commanded by the bible. I'm suspecting as far as praying 'for' the dead you won't get much flak about that here but praying 'to' the dead will be denounced.

 

[Athanasias]

Here is a question. Do Lutherans consider the doctrine of purgatory adiaphora? The reason I ask this is it would seem reasonable then if they do to allow prayers for the dead(which is a very Jewish practice) as adiaphora as praying for those in hell will be to no avail for them as they never get out and those in heaven do not need our prayers. Just curious.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Here is a question. Do Lutherans consider the doctrine of purgatory adiaphora? The reason I ask this is it would seem reasonable then if they do to allow prayers for the dead(which is a very Jewish practice) as adiaphora as praying for those in hell will be to no avail for them as they never get out and those in heaven do not need our prayers. Just curious.

Lutherans reject the concept of purgatory.

 

[Athanasias]

Lutherans reject the concept of purgatory.

Ok I understand that. But then why do they have an adiaphora practice of praying for the dead? I mean the dead in heaven need no prayers and the dead in hell no help will ever come to them for they never escape hell. So in Lutheran theology and understanding what would the point be of praying for the dead even in a adiaphora sense? I am just curious and I am not trying to be snarky or anything.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Ok I understand that. But then why do they have an adiaphora practice of praying for the dead? I mean the dead in heaven need no prayers and the dead in hell no help will ever come to them for they never escape hell. So in Lutheran theology and understanding what would the point be of praying for the dead even in a adiaphora sense? I am just curious and I am not trying to be snarky or anything.

Our confessions state (I think the words used are "men of old") that it is a very ancient practice.

The tone of prayers in the funeral Liturgy express faith and trust that God will indeed care for our loved ones, body and soul, until the last day. They show our submission to God's will also.

 

[Athanasias]

Our confessions state (I think the words used are "men of old") that it is a very ancient practice.

The tone of prayers in the funeral Liturgy express faith and trust that God will indeed care for our loved ones, body and soul, until the last day. They show our submission to God's will also.

Thanks Mark for the clarification. I know the confession is right and the practice is ancient as the Jews both ancient and today believe in the concept of purgatory and they pray 11 months for the dead in a prayer called the mourners kaddish. Some ancient rabbinical literature even uses the term purgatory and basically teaches what the Catholic concept is quoting OT prophets. This spilled over into Christian understanding and that is why the early Christians prayed for the dead and offered sacrifices and the Mass for the dead. Here is a article on that:

PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

So in the ancient sense Christians and Jews prayed for the dead out of a belief in a purgatorial concept. So the Lutheran practice to me while I understand it seems a bit odd and novel to me if they have no theology of purification after death that our prayers and sacrifices can aid. Again I am not trying to be snarky just trying to understand better. Thanks brother!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks Mark for the clarification. I know the confession is right and the practice is ancient as the Jews both ancient and today believe in the concept of purgatory and they pray 11 months for the dead in a prayer called the mourners kaddish. Some ancient rabbinical literature even uses the term purgatory and basically teaches what the Catholic concept is quoting OT prophets. This spilled over into Christian understanding and that is why the early Christians prayed for the dead and offered sacrifices and the Mass for the dead. Here is a article on that:

PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

So in the ancient sense Christians and Jews prayed for the dead out of a belief in a purgatorial concept. So the Lutheran practice to me while I understand it seems a bit odd and novel to me if they have no theology of purification after death that our prayers and sacrifices can aid. Again I am not trying to be snarky just trying to understand better. Thanks brother!

While we don't talk about purgatory, as we do not accept the way that some have promoted and taught it. Purgation, yes. The stain of original sin is purged before we enter paradise. If it dies with the physical body, if it is plucked from our souls by the hand of God, we do not speculate. One thing that we are certain of is that our prayers have no influence on this purgation. Our confessions state that prayer for the dead is useful, but they do not specify how they are useful.

Logically one would ask 'why pray if we feel it has no influence?'; the answer is that God does what God does regardless of what we desire. God does not need our prayers, He knows what we need and what we want; but we need to pray.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

My sense is that Martin Luther and other Lutheran Reformers [Melanchthon] when addressing prayers for the dead/ purgatory were reacting to abuses such as Masses for the Dead/ offerings to the Church to help the departed souls. The Roman Catholic Church seems to have backed away on making definitive doctrinal statements on some of these issues so the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Dialogue could agree that our differences concerning the dead are "not church-dividing"

Catholics and Lutherans agree that:
1. there is communion among the living and the dead across the divide of death;
2. Christians pray for one another and believe that such prayer is heard by God and
aids those for whom we pray;
3. at the very least Scripture does not prohibit prayer for the dead;
4. prayerful commendation of the dead to God is salutary within a funeral liturgy;
5. insofar as the resurrection of the dead and the general final judgment are future
events, it is appropriate to pray for God’s mercy for each person, entrusting
that one to God’s mercy because such mercy is and remains God’s gift;
6. even as a good work, prayer is an appeal to the divine mercy and not a purchase of
spiritual goods.
274. Thus, we agree that prayer for the dead, considered within the framework of the
communion of saints, need not be a church-dividing or communion-hindering issue for
Lutherans and Catholics.
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-tea...rnal-Life1.pdf

 

[PreachersWife2004]

When I think of praying for the dead, it's never a matter of "Dear God, please let cousin Timmy out of hell and into heaven". It's generally a thanksgiving and a HOPE they are in heaven. It's probably more a prayer of peace for ME than for the deceased.

 

[The Conductor]

In addition, I think it was C. S. Lewis who pointed out that it was only irrational to pray about something that one knew had not happened, i.e., please let me not have been born or something like that. In many cases, when details are lacking, such as when I see something on the news, I pray.

 

[Athanasias]

While we don't talk about purgatory, as we do not accept the way that some have promoted and taught it. Purgation, yes. The stain of original sin is purged before we enter paradise. If it dies with the physical body, if it is plucked from our souls by the hand of God, we do not speculate. One thing that we are certain of is that our prayers have no influence on this purgation. Our confessions state that prayer for the dead is useful, but they do not specify how they are useful.

Logically one would ask 'why pray if we feel it has no influence?'; the answer is that God does what God does regardless of what we desire. God does not need our prayers, He knows what we need and what we want; but we need to pray.

Thanks Mark ok. This makes much more sense to me now. We will have to discuss this more later then as I think we have more in common on this then one would think. Is original sin washed away in the sacrament of baptism according to Lutheran theology? At any rate purgation makes sense and is ancient but then so are prayers for this purgation as the Jews and Catholics practice historically.

What I still do not fully understand is why do Lutherans pray for the dead if the prayers for this purgation do nothing and if no one in heaven needs prayers and if no one hell will be helped by prayers? That just doesn't make sense to me. Also why do Lutherans assume God would not hear the prayers for this soul and help the purgation be less painful or quicker(however time works in the afterlife). Tough questions I know but I am sincere in seeking a clearer answer.

thanks Bud!

Happy New Year btw!

 

[Athanasias]

In addition, I think it was C. S. Lewis who pointed out that it was only irrational to pray about something that one knew had not happened, i.e., please let me not have been born or something like that. In many cases, when details are lacking, such as when I see something on the news, I pray.

Yeah actually Lewis was one protestant who did believe in purgatory and prayed for the souls in purgatory and talked about it because he thought the concept made sense. I appreciate this about Lewis.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've wondered the ELCA and Episcopalian church handle the intercommunion because my impression is that praying for the dead is something Lutherans do not do as explicitly as Episcopalians? Or maybe I'm just misinformed. I haven't heard a lot of Lutherans talk about prayers for the dead.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I've wondered the ELCA and Episcopalian church handle the intercommunion because my impression is that praying for the dead is something Lutherans do not do as explicitly as Episcopalians? Or maybe I'm just misinformed. I haven't heard a lot of Lutherans talk about prayers for the dead.

These are from the LCMS...

Since doing such is integral in our liturgies for the dying or at the bedside of the recently departed, at the Funeral, the blessing of the grave, the committal service itself, there is little need to talk about it, as it just happens.

Here are a couple of Lutheran Prayers:

O holy and righteous God, it has pleased You to call from this life the departed lying here before us by temporal death. Let us learn from this death that we, too, must die and leave this world, in order that we may prepare for it in time by repentance, a living faith, and avoiding the sins and vanities of the world. Refresh the soul that has now departed with heavenly consolation and joy, and fulfill for it all the gracious promises which in Your holy Word You have made to those who believe in You. Grant to the body a soft and quiet rest in the earth till the Last Day, when You will reunite body and soul and lead them into glory, so that the entire person who served You here may be filled with heavenly joy there. Comfort all who are in grief over this death, and be and remain to the bereaved their Father, Provider, Guardian, Helper, and Support. Do not forsake them, and do not withdraw Your hand from them, but let them abundantly experience Your goodness, grace, love, and help, until You will grant them also a happy and blessed end. Hear us for Your mercy’s sake. Amen. (Starck’s Prayer Book Revised Concordia Edition, p. 345)

[FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]Be mindful, O Lord, of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]"[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times, serif]Name" and all who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection unto eternal life. Shelter them in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow, and sighing have fled away, and where the sight of Your countenance rejoices all Your saints from all ages. Grant them Your kingdom and a portion in Your ineffable and eternal blessings, and the enjoyment of Your unending life. For You are the Resurrection and the Life and the Repose of Your departed servants, O Christ, and to You we ascribe glory, together with Your Father, who is from everlasting, and Your all-holy, good, and life-giving Spirit, now and forever. ([/FONT]http://www.stpaullutheranchurchhamel.org/PrayerfortheDeparted.html)

From Lutheran Service Book Committal Service (at the graveside):

May God the Father who created this body; may God the + Son, who by His blood redeemed this body; may God the Holy Spirit, who by Holy Baptism sanctified this body to be His temple, keep these remains to the day of the resurrection of all flesh. Amen


Almighty God, by the death of Your Son Jesus Christ You destroyed death, by His rest in the tomb You sanctified the graves of Your saints, and by His bodily resurrection You brought life and immortality to light so that all who die in Him abide in peace and hope. Receive our thanks for the victory over death and the grave that He won for us. Keep us in everlasting communion with all who wait for Him on earth and with all in heaven who are with Him, for He is the resurrection and the life, even Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I've wondered the ELCA and Episcopalian church handle the intercommunion because my impression is that praying for the dead is something Lutherans do not do as explicitly as Episcopalians? Or maybe I'm just misinformed. I haven't heard a lot of Lutherans talk about prayers for the dead.

I've had a fair amount of contact with Episcopalians [mainly on retreats] and can't recall the subject of prayers for the dead ever coming up for discussion. But I have assumed that Anglicans essentially follow Lutheran practice of praying for the dead within the context of the funeral liturgy.

My own parish celebrates All Saints Day on the nearest Sunday as allowed in our missal. The deacon has a list of all those in the parish who have died during the past year and includes their names as a petition in the Prayer of the Church or members can say out loud the names of their loved ones who are dead. We can lite votive candles in front of a large crucifix in the chapel in memory of the dead. This used to be observed on All Souls Day [Nov 2] in what Lutherans call the Commemoration of the Faithful Departed but now it is part of the All Saints celebration.

Commemoration of the Faithful Departed

Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In his book, "The Presence, An Approach to the Holy Communion" Berthold von Schenk, teaches that during holy Communion we are in the presence of our loved ones. Father von Schenk, was the pastor & headmaster of Our Saviour School [LCMS] and either he or his son, also a pastor, preached/ taught us at the Wednesday school Mass. The Real Presence with Christ meant that we were among the living and the dead praising God on earth and in Heaven.

http://alpb.org/presence.html

 

[FireDragon76]

I've had a fair amount of contact with Episcopalians [mainly on retreats] and can't recall the subject of prayers for the dead ever coming up for discussion. But I have assumed that Anglicans essentially follow Lutheran practice of praying for the dead within the context of the funeral liturgy.

It's also part of the Eucharist every Sunday in Episcopal churches, in the prayers of the people, the general litany in the middle of the service.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It's also part of the Eucharist every Sunday in Episcopal churches, in the prayers of the people, the general litany in the middle of the service.

Yes, of course during the Prayer of the Church, the recently deceased and all the faithful departed are prayed for.

 

[SalusaSecundus]

Not for their salvation but for thanksgiving for their life and witness.

This question of praying for the dead was posted on the General Theology forum. Our Confessions say that prayers for the dead are "neither useless nor prohibited" Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XXIV:94-96.

This is why I so admire the Lutheran faith. We leave open to individual expression of piety and prayer those subjects that are not entirely clear scripturally.

Our funeral liturgy specifically includes prayers for the deceased in several places and locations [church/ graveyard].

Any thoughts?