Do little t's matter much?

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Our Priests never wore collars, the faithful would stand during the length of the service, the majority of the cleregy kept beards, we did not pray with non orthodox, nor share in communion with them, one was to keep an observant fast, women were to keep heads covered with scarves, and oblio already explained about the curtain over the iconostas. Ive actually had antidoron stay fresh for about 2 1/2 months. But that is besides the point can't you see the big picture. Of course not 2,000 years, hear 1700 years better?

 

[Rilian]

I think this article has an interesting take on the topic. Alexander Schmemann: A Man in Full.

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

I think this article has an interesting take on the topic. Alexander Schmemann: A Man in Full.

I dont find it to interesting. Because Im hiding from history to keep up with my paranoid delusions.

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

I think this is more interesting. http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/most_important.htm

 

[Matrona]

Our Priests never wore collars, the faithful would stand during the length of the service, the majority of the cleregy kept beards, we did not pray with non orthodox, nor share in communion with them, one was to keep an observant fast, women were to keep heads covered with scarves, and oblio already explained about the curtain over the iconostas.

And if you think ANY of those things makes you a better Christian than me or any other Antiochian Orthodox Christian, you've got a LOT to learn about the Gospel.

For the record, my church does most of those things, but we don't think that makes us better than anyone...

Also, closed communion is UNIVERSAL in Orthodoxy, it is not a pious tradition unlike everything else you mentioned, it is MANDATORY.

Also I do not cover my head but that's mostly because a headscarf looks weird when pretty much all you have to wear is jeans. I also don't think it would be right to take up a pious tradition just to appear "more Orthodox than thou" to others! But you would probably want me kicked out of communion with the Orthodox Church for wearing jeans, too.

As for me, I think I do pretty darn well for someone with no car and no money with parents who don't care!

 

[Rilian]

I think this is more interesting. http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/most_important.htm

It is a good article. Especially this section


As for those people who adhere steadfastly to the true teaching of Christ, the devil attempts to tear them away from the Church by means of schisms and parish strife. Once again, he cleverly suggests to people seemingly good reasons for correcting some deficiency or improving some existing situation. The trouble lies not so much with some particular customs or external activities, which may not be the best, and may be in need of correction; the real trouble is that people start quarrelling among themselves and then split into hostile groups.

 

[Oblio]

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[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

And if you think ANY of those things makes you a better Christian than me or any other Antiochian Orthodox Christian, you've got a LOT to learn about the Gospel.

For the record, my church does most of those things, but we don't think that makes us better than anyone...

Also, closed communion is UNIVERSAL in Orthodoxy, it is not a pious tradition unlike everything else you mentioned, it is MANDATORY.

Also I do not cover my head but that's mostly because a headscarf looks weird when pretty much all you have to wear is jeans. I also don't think it would be right to take up a pious tradition just to appear "more Orthodox than thou" to others! But you would probably want me kicked out of communion with the Orthodox Church for wearing jeans, too.

As for me, I think I do pretty darn well for someone with no car and no money with parents who don't care!

Matrona you have misunderstood me. If you think I am such a vain unloving person I am here to tell you that is not so. What I have been saying since I arrived to this board And what no body seems to hear is that with "little" Compromises come larger and larger compromises until one day the Tradition of the church is replaced by a new psuedo-traditonalism. If we do not protect what is given to us what will there be of it tommorrow for the next generation?

 

[Rilian]

I've been in Serbian, Ukrainian, Carpatho-Russian and Greek churches in this country with pews and where the clergy have short hair and/or minimal facial hair. Have they fatally compromised the traditions of the church? Is tradition completely static? How does one judge what is a good or bad innovation?

 

[nyj]

As for me, I think I do pretty darn well for someone with no car and no money with parents who don't care!

[font=&quot]Facienti quod in se est, Deus non denegat gratiam[/font][font=&quot].
[/font][font=&quot][font=&quot]To the one who does what in him lies, God does not deny grace.[/font]
[/font]

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

I've been in Serbian, Ukrainian, Carpatho-Russian and Greek churches in this country with pews and where the clergy have short hair and/or minimal facial hair. Have they fatally compromised the traditions of the church? Is tradition completely static? How does one judge what is a good or bad innovation?

The beards is not so important what can I say its none of my business its a personal choice. Put the pews however I can say It is not a good practice because it is a tradition to stand/ pay attention during the service. One cannot be so comftorable during prayer because the mind will start to wander.

 

[Rilian]

But does having pews make them less Orthodox, does it compromise the faith?

(by the way, I don't like pews).

Overall, I can only say I have had a good experience with the Antiochians so far. They have been welcoming of me, a non-Orthodox and did not treat me like an outsider or a heretic. They are a big part of the reason why I would want to become Orthodox.

My narrow experience has shown me there is actually a great variety in practice within the realm of Orthodoxy. The basic liturgy is the same in all places I've seen, but there are many things that vary with regard to custom and practice. I don't think there's any one way of being Orthodox as far as I can tell. In my estimation there shouldn't be, because Orthodoxy is not static or monolithic. It is a living organic entity which has continuity with the past but exists in the present.

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Well ask yourself this, why would they want to intentionally decline the savor of the services? So people from american backgrounds can feel more comftorable and familiar? There is a reason why things are done in our church not just for the sake of cold tradition as some seem to think. And who are they to go about changing the way things were done for centuries? What motives do they have?

 

[Rilian]

Well ask yourself this, why would they want to intentionally decline the savor of the services? So people from american backgrounds can feel more comftorable and familiar? There is a reason why things are done in our church not just for the sake of cold tradition as some seem to think. And who are they to go about changing the way things were done for centuries? What motives do they have?

I'm not sure who the "they" is here or who has intentionally degraded the quality of their services. Everywhere Orthodoxy has gone in my understanding it has gained a different expression based on the group that received it. The Greeks do different things from the Russians who do different things from the Arabs and so on. This doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. It is part of the melding with the culture and it is what makes the message of the Gospel understandable and openly received.

You would need to show me some specific examples of the things that have been done for centuries that are being disregarded. What is your personal experience in Orthodoxy that has given you this impression? That would probably help me to understand.

 

[Oblio]

In my estimation there shouldn't be, because Orthodoxy is not static or monolithic. It is a living organic entity which has continuity with the past but exists in the present.

Very true. We are monolithic in faith (Tradition), but we do vary in the more minor customs (traditions). Greeks do this, Russians/Americans that, and Antiochians other (In no particular order ) . I think eventually that the American Orthodox Church (in a few hundred years) will have a tradition all it's own.

 

[Oblio]

And who are they to go about changing the way things were done for centuries? What motives do they have?

The Greek Church predates the Russian by a thousand years. Ask again with that in mind.

 

[vanshan]

Being schismatic, like a lot of the Russian churches I know of, breaks lots and lots of canons!

Pot to kettle, pot to kettle... you are black, over!

Matrona, I cannot say there are not some, shall we say over-zealous, in the Russian churches who would rather break communion with the modern jurisdictions rather than to accept the dropping of multiple little traditions, but in these cases who is causing schism -- those who just want to keep these practices, or those who have modernized?

I am not as confident as you that the modern, innovative or Americanized, parishes are not the ones departing from long kept Orthodox customs. Aren't we just as "schismatic" to condemn Russian practice and choose a new calendar, pews, organs, Roman collars, etc.?

Basil

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Hold up, I am not speaking of the cultural differences! That is part of what makes Orthodoxy great. Everyone does something a little different. But that never included things like cocelebration with the pope, Being under the calander of rome, wearing roman collars, and Collors, and to sit during parts of the services, service and communion with copts. Where do you draw the line once you compromise in these things?

 

[ufonium2]

The Greek Church predates the Russian by a thousand years. Ask again with that in mind.

True, but GOARCH doesn't. I've never been to a Greek church in Greece, do they have pews and organs there? I was under the impression that these were an American phenomenon.

As much as I want an American Orthodox church, I understand that it has to be on Orthodoxy's terms and not ours. I go to the most traditionalist church in my city. (We are of primarily Russian heritage, so I guess we fit the stereotype.) I know that the other churches in town look down on us for what they see as pointless traditionalism.

The thing is, they look down on us for doing things the way they've always been done, and make us out to be the bad guys for it. (Again, I'm not talking about cultural differences between the Patriarchates. If a Greek church is doing what they've been doing in Greece for two thousand years, and it's different than what Moscow or Antioch have been doing, more power to them. That's what they're supposed to do.)

The attitude of "We've changed, now accept it or be called old-fashioned/a bigot/fundamentalists/whatever." is exactly what's going on in the Episcopal church right now, and you see how well it has worked out for them.

 

[Michael G]

A friend of mine was once addressing the topic of those who insist that an icon is only an icon when written in egg tempera and made the following point: you can make a religion out of anything, including eggs. We must take great heed to not make the small t's into big T's and then schism over minor differences which do not effect our faith. In the end it is not how more Orthodox than everyone else we are that will get us into Heaven but how much our love of God envelopes our entire life and the lives of those arround us. Being traditional is great, I am a deep traditionalist. But being a stagnant traditionalist is wrong because it closes off the possibility of anything good coming out of the future. To give a concrete example of this from my own life: I am accepting of modernity enough to realize that one can write beautiful icons using acryllic paint and at the same time I am traditionalist enough to know that the best icons were written in Classical Byzantium and Russia and that these are the works which one should emulate. I am not saying we must accept heterodoxy, but each jurisdiction needs to stop pointing fingers at the other ones and insisting that it is the most truly Orthodox of the bunch. This is the only way we can slowly begin to establish an American Orthodox Church under our own single Patriarch.