Do facts actualy point to a Creator?

[bhsmte]

What I don't believe is what you are saying I believe.





No need to. It's common knowledge and feigning ignorance of common knowledge will not send me int a useless frenzy of research over something that is easily confirmed by simply googling.

BTW

Smacks of bias!
You are free to cite papers to support your assertions as well yet you don't.
I don't see atheists here nor anywhere else citing papers over their abiogenesis preferences and the subject has been discussed in other websites-so I know that it isn't done.
So if that is their modus operandi, which is perfectly OK by you, why should the identical modus operandi be suddenly deemed any different simply because it isn't being employed by an atheist. Hmmmmm?



Wonder why? That is a real enigma worth of deep research.
Could it be because they never have? Hmmmm?
Could it also be that I don't defend those two ideas because I never expressed them?
The truth is that I never made those two claims. Those are your ideas in reference to what physicists have said or written, not mine.

BTW

A thread where a people express their own controversial ideas and then proceed to criticize them would be far more satisfying to the participants and less time-wasting.

Can you demonstrate, what this common knowledge is and support it, with evidence?

 

[Loudmouth]

You are free to cite papers to support your assertions as well yet you don't.

If that is what you want. Here is a paper outlining an RNA molecule capable of extending and creating more complex RNA molecules.

Science. 1995 Jul 21;269(5222):364-70.

Structurally complex and highly active RNA ligases derived from random RNA
sequences.

Ekland EH(1), Szostak JW, Bartel DP.

Collaborators: Szostak JW(1).

Author information:
(1)Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research, Cambridge, MA 02142, USA.

Seven families of RNA ligases, previously isolated from random RNA sequences,
fall into three classes on the basis of secondary structure and regiospecificity
of ligation. Two of the three classes of ribozymes have been engineered to act as
true enzymes, catalyzing the multiple-turnover transformation of substrates into
products. The most complex of these ribozymes has a minimal catalytic domain of
93 nucleotides. An optimized version of this ribozyme has a kcat exceeding one
per second, a value far greater than that of most natural RNA catalysts and
approaching that of comparable protein enzymes. The fact that such a large and
complex ligase emerged from a very limited sampling of sequence space implies the
existence of a large number of distinct RNA structures of equivalent complexity
and activity.​

Here we have research demonstrating the spontaneous formation of vesicles.

Orig Life Evol Biosph. 2016 Jun;46(2-3):215-22. doi: 10.1007/s11084-015-9476-8.
Epub 2015 Nov 21.

Prebiotic Vesicle Formation and the Necessity of Salts.

Maurer SE(1), Nguyen G(2).

Author information:
(1)Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Central Connecticut State
University, 1615 Stanley St., New Britain, CT, 06050, USA. smaurer@ccsu.edu.
(2)Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Central Connecticut State
University, 1615 Stanley St., New Britain, CT, 06050, USA.

Self-assembly is considered one of the driving forces behind abiogenesis and
would have been affected by the environmental conditions of early Earth. The
formation of membranes is a key step in this process, and unlike large dialkyl
membranes of modern cells the first membranes were likely formed from small
single-chain amphiphiles, which are environment-sensitive. Fatty acids and their
derivatives have been previously characterized in this role without concern for
the concentrations of ionic solutes in the suspension. We determined the critical
vesicle concentration (CVC) for three single-chain amphiphiles with increasing
concentrations of NaCl. All amphiphile species had decreasing CVCs correlated to
increasing NaCl concentrations. Decanoic acid and oleic acid were impacted more
strongly than monoacylglycerol, likely because of electric shielding of the
negatively charged headgroups in the presence of salt. There was no impact on the
salt species as 100 mM NaBr, NaCl, and KCl all exhibited the same effect on CVC.
This research shows the importance of salt in both the formation of life and in
experimental design for aggregation experiments.​

Do you want more?

Where are the papers supporting your claims?

 

[Radrook]

What process is that?

How do theists use the spin rate of galaxies to come to the conclusion of an ID? How do theists use the bending of starlight around objects to come to the conclusion of an ID?

Unfamiliarity with how inductive reasoning is employed in science is essential for any discussion concerning conclusions and theories found in science. Unfamiliarity with how inductive reasoning works in science will only result in claims of incomprehension and the proposing of totally irrelevant questions. Please look up inductive reasoning in order to understand how it relates to the scientific method in order avoid misunderstandings such as the one you express here.

That you can't present any evidence for an ID confirms my suspicions.

Please take the above mentioned advice. Thanks!

 

[Freodin]

That isn't abiogenesis.
The assumptions based on it are wishful thinking and nothing more.

Please show me why conclusions based inductive reasoning are perfectly OK for atheist scientists but suddenly not OK for theists. Can you do that?

Because you are doing it wrong, this "inductive reasoning". I have showed you in my last post.

 

[bhsmte]

That isn't abiogenesis.
The assumptions based on it are wishful thinking and nothing more.

Please show me why conclusions based inductive reasoning are perfectly OK for atheist scientists but suddenly not OK for theists. Can you do that?

Right after you tell us, which atheist scientists, claim abiogenesis is a well evidenced theory.

 

[Radrook]

If that is what you want. Here is a paper outlining an RNA molecule capable of extending and creating more complex RNA molecules.

Science. 1995 Jul 21;269(5222):364-70.

Structurally complex and highly active RNA ligases derived from random RNA
sequences.

Ekland EH(1), Szostak JW, Bartel DP.

Collaborators: Szostak JW(1).

Author information:
(1)Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research, Cambridge, MA 02142, USA.

Seven families of RNA ligases, previously isolated from random RNA sequences,
fall into three classes on the basis of secondary structure and regiospecificity
of ligation. Two of the three classes of ribozymes have been engineered to act as
true enzymes, catalyzing the multiple-turnover transformation of substrates into
products. The most complex of these ribozymes has a minimal catalytic domain of
93 nucleotides. An optimized version of this ribozyme has a kcat exceeding one
per second, a value far greater than that of most natural RNA catalysts and
approaching that of comparable protein enzymes. The fact that such a large and
complex ligase emerged from a very limited sampling of sequence space implies the
existence of a large number of distinct RNA structures of equivalent complexity
and activity.​

Here we have research demonstrating the spontaneous formation of vesicles.

Orig Life Evol Biosph. 2016 Jun;46(2-3):215-22. doi: 10.1007/s11084-015-9476-8.
Epub 2015 Nov 21.

Prebiotic Vesicle Formation and the Necessity of Salts.

Maurer SE(1), Nguyen G(2).

Author information:
(1)Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Central Connecticut State
University, 1615 Stanley St., New Britain, CT, 06050, USA. smaurer@ccsu.edu.
(2)Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Central Connecticut State
University, 1615 Stanley St., New Britain, CT, 06050, USA.

Self-assembly is considered one of the driving forces behind abiogenesis and
would have been affected by the environmental conditions of early Earth. The
formation of membranes is a key step in this process, and unlike large dialkyl
membranes of modern cells the first membranes were likely formed from small
single-chain amphiphiles, which are environment-sensitive. Fatty acids and their
derivatives have been previously characterized in this role without concern for
the concentrations of ionic solutes in the suspension. We determined the critical
vesicle concentration (CVC) for three single-chain amphiphiles with increasing
concentrations of NaCl. All amphiphile species had decreasing CVCs correlated to
increasing NaCl concentrations. Decanoic acid and oleic acid were impacted more
strongly than monoacylglycerol, likely because of electric shielding of the
negatively charged headgroups in the presence of salt. There was no impact on the
salt species as 100 mM NaBr, NaCl, and KCl all exhibited the same effect on CVC.
This research shows the importance of salt in both the formation of life and in
experimental design for aggregation experiments.​

Do you want more?

Where are the papers supporting your claims?

More of chemical reactions which don't constitute abiogenesis but are claimed to lead to abiogenesis
Don't waste your time.

 

[Loudmouth]

Unfamiliarity with how inductive reasoning is employed in science is essential for any discussion concerning conclusions and theories found in science. Unfamiliarity with how inductive reasoning works in science will only result in claims of incomprehension and the proposing of totally irrelevant questions. Please look up inductive reasoning in order to understand how it relates to the scientific method in order avoid misunderstandings such as the one you express here.

The fact that you can't show the inductive reasoning that leads to the conclusion of an ID demonstrates that there is no such reasoning.

 

[Loudmouth]

More of chemical reactions which don't constitute abiogenesis but are claimed to lead to abiogenesis
Don't waste your time.

And now you are ignoring scientific findings. Go figure.

 

[Radrook]

Because you are doing it wrong, this "inductive reasoning". I have showed you in my last post.

I haven't read of any genuine debunking of inductive reasoning as related to cogent reasoning and as related to the scientific method and if indeed such an attempt is made, it would obviously mean that fallacious reasoning is being employed.

 

[Loudmouth]

I haven't read of any genuine debunking of inductive reasoning as related to cogent reasoning and as related to the scientific method and if indeed such an attempt is made, it would obviously mean that fallacious reasoning is being employed.

What is the inductive reasoning that leads to the conclusion of an ID?

 

[Radrook]

The fact that you can't show the inductive reasoning that leads to the conclusion of an ID demonstrates that there is no such reasoning.

Now inductive reasoning doesn't exist? Just as I suspected. Please google the subject of inductive reasoning and add the term scientific method.

 

[Loudmouth]

Now inductive reasoning doesn't exist?

Please show us the inductive reasoning that leads to the conclusion of an ID.

 

[Radrook]

What is the inductive reasoning that leads to the conclusion of an ID?

Please google inductive reasoning along with scientific method together before continuing the discussion.

 

[bhsmte]

Now inductive reasoning doesn't exist? Just as I suspected. Please google the subject of inductive reasoning and add the term scientific method.

You are still doing it; not reading what people actually write and redefining the same.

This typically happens, when someone is in serious defensive mode and has nothing to support their claims.

 

[Loudmouth]

Please google inductive reasoning along with scientific method together before continuing the discussion.

That doesn't give me the inductive argument that leads to the conclusion of an ID.

 

[Radrook]

And now you are ignoring scientific findings. Go figure.

The findings don't justify the conclusions.

 

[Loudmouth]

The findings don't justify the conclusions.

What are the conclusions in those papers, and how are they not justified?

 

[Freodin]

The findings don't justify the conclusions.

So how do you justify your conclusions?

 

[Radrook]

Right after you tell us, which atheist scientists, claim abiogenesis is a well evidenced theory.

If I had made that official proclamation of abiogenesis as fact by atheist scientists claim I would defend it.
But since I haven't......

What I do notice-however, is that abiogenesis, though technically not officially pronounced as an indisputable fact, is nevertheless treated as if it were indisputable undeniable fact.

Goldilocks zones on exo-planetary star systems are touted as being more likely to
nurture life because they are far more likely to foster abiogenesis.

Calculations about the numerical presence of life are smugly proposed based on the likelihood of abiogenesis.

The presence of water is proclaimed to be essential for the existence of life anywhere in the universe because without water abiogenesis is extremely unlikely if not outright impossible.


So no official proclamation is really necessary. Just treat it as if it were indeed a fact and Voila!

 

[Radrook]

What are the conclusions in those papers, and how are they not justified?

you show me exactly how each of them justifies YOUR conclusion.