Do facts actualy point to a Creator?

[Chriliman]

Baloney. Truths can be independent of one another.

True things can be independent of one another. However, I'm talking about the truth that can explain everything. In science this is referred to as a unified theory of everything that combines gravitational theory with quantum theory, but even if we're able to unify those two theories it's still way far off from explaining everything in reality. The truth of reality would explain everything in reality.

 

[Loudmouth]

True things can be independent of one another.

Then Gravity doesn't have to explain European 16th century history.

In science this is referred to as a unified theory of everything that combines gravitational theory with quantum theory, but even if we're able to unify those two theories it's still way far off from explaining everything in reality. The truth of reality would explain everything in reality.

In science, we don't use illogical statements like this one:

"If gravity were the truth about reality then it should be able to explain everything in reality, including, but not limited to things like why there is good and evil."

That you would think this is a logical statement goes a long way to disproving your claims of being logical.

 

[Chris B]

The Gospel is what tamed both the barbarian and the Roman both, and although neither followed the Word with all their heart, all the time, its still that Word that enlightened the ancient world, whether you will admit it or not. Before the Gospel man was savage, and even the so called enlightened Roman empire with all its glorious philosophy and art, was nothing but a barbarian. It was the teaching of Love and mercy that Christ brought into the world that all modern civilization is built on. Its also the filthy remnant left over by the barbaric yet so called "civilized" Romans that is causing war, hate, greed and pride today.

If mankind followed Christ with all its heart, instead of clinging to mans wisdom and mans glory, then we would have no war or poverty. Mankind however glories instead in his own wisdom, and in the creation of his own hands. He worship idols made by his own hand, just as his forefathers did as well. He is reaping what he sows, just as God declared. Revelation speaks a great mystery concerning this, and mankind has reaped Gods plagues because he refuses to repent and Give God glory. Mankind doesn't even see it either because he is spiritualy blind, which is also part of the plague that he reaps

If this is your take on history I decline to engage further.
It's just too far removed from anything I can recognise. On non-Christian civilizations and the track record of Christian ones, though I note the handy reserve position of "not fully Christian" which can cover absolutely anything or not, as desired.
Done for this topic.

 

[The Cadet]

Most of what you said does make sense to me, except this.



If gravity were the truth about reality then it should be able to explain everything in reality, including, but not limited to things like why there is good and evil. Gravity cannot explain this.

The way I understand it, "the truth about reality" includes anything which is true about reality. You can't have the truth about reality without it containing gravity, and trying to determine "the whole truth" is a nigh-impossible task until you break it down into its individual components, which allows us to grow closer and closer to the truth about reality. But even then, I don't see why this would make the truth about reality unfalsifiable.

 

[Chriliman]

Then Gravity doesn't have to explain European 16th century history.

I agree.

In science, we don't use illogical statements like this one:

"If gravity were the truth about reality then it should be able to explain everything in reality, including, but not limited to things like why there is good and evil."

That you would think this is a logical statement goes a long way to disproving your claims of being logical.

The only reason I said that to The Cadet is because he said gravity is the truth about reality, but in actuality, gravity is a concept that we've applied to a specific observation within reality, namely the observation that massive objects attract one another with respect to their mass and distance from one another. I know he understands this, but the point I'm trying to make is that the truth about reality itself would logically be able to explain everything in reality, including but not limited to gravity, quantum mechanics and good/evil and even why I exist.

 

[Chriliman]

The way I understand it, "the truth about reality" includes anything
which is true about reality.

Agreed.

You can't have the truth about reality without it containing gravity, and trying to determine "the whole truth" is a nigh-impossible task until you break it down into its individual components,

"nigh-impossible" does not mean impossible, it means it's possible, but it just seems very difficult to you personally. "The whole truth" could also possibly be very simple to understand, it would just take time to learn it and apply it.

which allows us to grow closer and closer to the truth about reality. But even then, I don't see why this would make the truth about reality unfalsifiable.

If the truth about reality is true whether you grow closer to it or not then this means it has to be unfalsifiable because it would logically be independent of our conscious ability to understand it and our attempts to falsify it. IOW, the truth about reality will still be true whether or not we claim it should be falsifiable or not.

 

[The Cadet]

"The whole truth" could also possibly be very simple to understand

Nah, quantum physics proves that this is definitely not the case. As Haldane so famously put it, "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it may be stranger than we can imagine." The truth is not simple, and we've established that pretty well by this point. The universe plays by rules that are extremely unintuitive and complex.

If the truth about reality is true whether you grow closer to it or not then this means it has to be unfalsifiable because it would logically be independent of our conscious ability to understand it and our attempts to falsify it. IOW, the truth about reality will still be true whether or not we claim it should be falsifiable or not.

None of this follows, or really speaks to falsifiability at all.

 

[Chriliman]

Nah, quantum physics proves that this is definitely not the case. As Haldane so famously put it, "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it may be stranger than we can imagine." The truth is not simple, and we've established that pretty well by this point. The universe plays by rules that are extremely unintuitive and complex.

It could also be said that the closer we look at creation without reference to the creator the more confused we become.

 

[KCfromNC]

They dont mean anything me, you're right. Im only trying to use mans logic here. Man uses his own logic, God uses His. In God there is only one logic, that is Christ.

Unless you're claiming to be god, you're going to have a tough time knowing what its logic is. You're stuck using the same man-made logic as the rest of us.

 

[bhsmte]

It could also be said that the closer we look at creation without reference to the creator the more confused we become.

What creator?

 

[Loudmouth]

I agree.

Then you have completely changed your position.

"If gravity were the truth about reality then it should be able to explain everything in reality, . . . "--Chriliman

Were you being logical before, or logical now?

I know he understands this, but the point I'm trying to make is that the truth about reality itself would logically be able to explain everything in reality, . . .

That is not logical at all.

 

[Loudmouth]

It could also be said that the closer we look at creation without reference to the creator the more confused we become.

You could say it, but that wouldn't make it true or logical.

You claim that you are approaching this logically, but almost everything you say is not logical. Your position appears to be just opinions and beliefs you hold, regardless if they are logical or not.

 

[Chriliman]

What creator?

Profound question indeed!

 

[Loudmouth]

Profound question indeed!

No more profound than "What magical leprechaun?".

 

[The Cadet]

It could also be said that the closer we look at creation without reference to the creator the more confused we become.

Are you saying that looking closely at creation with reference to the creator would make us less confused? How, exactly, does a belief in God help us understand quantum physics? I mean, it certainly didn't help us understand it while we were still figuring it out, so it's kind of a silly question, but does it even help us understand it after the fact? I don't think so.

 

[PapaZoom]

That science cannot answer some question does not imply that religion can.

I agree

 

[The Cadet]

I agree

...But do you think that religion can answer some questions science can't? And, follow-up question if the answer is yes, why?

 

[PapaZoom]

The claim is that there is a better method than the scientific method for modeling the reality around us. Take pot shots at the scientific method all you want. At the end of the day, it is the best method we have, and the inability of anyone else to show us a better method is testament to this fact.

I hope I'm not coming across as taking pot shots. I have respect for the scientific method. I don't think there is a better method - at least not one of which I'm aware. But it seems to be a limiting method. Perhaps I don't fully understand it.

 

[PapaZoom]

...But do you think that religion can answer some questions science can't? And, follow-up question if the answer is yes, why?

Yes of course. The supernatural is an example. But it might be better to say religion can address some questions science cannot. In the same way, philosophy addresses questions outside of science. I'd write more but this iPad is no fun for typing.

 

[Extraneous]

Unless you're claiming to be god, you're going to have a tough time knowing what its logic is. You're stuck using the same man-made logic as the rest of us.

Scriptures teach us what Gods logic is. Its humbleness of mind, love, compassion, mercy, faith, hope.