Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

BarbB · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Ok, statically speaking, they are college graduates and especially people with post-graduate degrees. Admittedly, this is not specifically IQ, but there is a strong correlation.
.....

I have a high IQ, a college degree in Psych and post graduate studies toward an MBA. I was Dean's List my Jr and Sr year. Is that good enough?

BarbB · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
Since MLKs message has been watered down and neutralized almost as much as Jesus, I should provide some context here. MLK didnt just preach against bigotry, he was a disciple of Gandhi. Gandhi invented the path of non-violent action. In Hindi it is called Ahimsa peaceful action. That his how he was able to free India from British rule. MLK went to India and became a disciple of Gandhis, studying at one of his ashrams. It is only by embracing the parallel truths of other religions that MLK was able to preach the gospel in the manner that he did.

So Gandhi was a Christian? I don't think so -

BarbB · May 4, 2006

mike1reynolds said:
All true religions teach exactly the same precepts. Just because other religions are older and so could not have made reference to Jesus in their scriptures doesnt make their lack of scriptural reference to Jesus a source of invalidation. All Hindus, for example, embrace Jesus as a messiah. Their term for messiah is avatar and they all believe that Jesus was the last avatar. They avidly study the life of Jesus and are intimately familiar with Him. For example, when The Passion of Christ came out, it was a huge block buster in India. People lined up around the block waiting for hours to get in to see it, like you would only see for a rock concert in this country. They arguably love Jesus much more than most Americans.

This is so much junk - or junque if you prefer. If you prefer demonic religions, then I suggest you remove the cross. The Methodists I know are liberal, but not that liberal!

Crusader2 · May 4, 2006

I beleive that you go wherever you beleive in.

for instance....If you believe in candy bars you will end up in one and be eaten by the snooby girl that found(dady bought her) the golden ticket.

lets see, lets carpet, Oh and supermarkets, and don't forget shoes, (300 pm's from women)

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

I didn't say that Gandhi was a Christian, obviously he is a Hindu. But Hindus do embrace Jesus as the last avatar, i.e. world savior. Just as the existence of the New Testament does not demand the abandoment of the Old, Hindus embrace their scriptures and ours.

As to your having a high IQ and a college degree, then you should know that this is "anecdotal evidence", which proves very little.

So you assert that MLK's practices were demonically inspired? You have jumped from religious bigotry to racial bigotry now...

Quick · May 4, 2006

Well, what does the Bible say? That's my answer.

mike1reynolds · May 4, 2006

We’ve been quoting a number of verses here. My favorites are Matthew 7:21-23, 1 John 4:6-8, Romans 2:14-16, Luke 12:47-48, and I just came across Romans 1:19

For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

BarbB said:
The Methodists I know are liberal, but not that liberal!

Do you really believe that if John Wesley had been alive to meet Joseph Campbell that they wouldn’t have hit it right off? (Campbell’s works on comparative religion are what inspired Lucas to make Star Wars). John Wesley would have gone nuts over Star Wars (the first 3, not the last 3) and the Matrix (another work of comparative religion and philosophy). He would have fully understood all of their implications and used them for preaching, both showing them in church for his congregations as well as using them for missionary work in non-Christian countries. That is what Methodism is all about, using whatever method will get through to people to help them understand spirituality and God.

My family has been members of the same Methodist church for four generations. My grandfather, an Air Force colonel, went back to college in his 40’s to study comparative religion because, as a Methodist, this seemed to him like the best academic degree one could have.

My grandfather was also a Free Mason, twice master of his lodge, because he thought that there was something deeply spiritual about following the foot steps of the founding fathers like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who were also Free Masons. The Free Masons were set up as a society of “free thinkers about God” as a response to the religious repression of state sponsored religions in Europe and their holy wars.

At 8 this interested me greatly, as I wanted to become a priest, pastor, or theologian. Being aware of my interest he was showing me a chart on the wall of the Temple, of the 33 steps of Masonry. So I asked him, do you have to be a Christian to join? As a practical matter the answer is yes, but he instinctively knew where I was coming from, and knew that the answer had to be no, or I wouldn’t be impressed. I had not yet ever brought up the issue of this thread, yet somehow he just knew that I was asking a pointed question. He almost jolted as his spine became erect, as if standing at attention before a superior officer, the issue was that serious to him. After contemplating for a moment he said, “….No, you just have to believe in God.” I smiled, satisfied with the answer. Like Romans 1:19 says, at eight I instinctively knew what God is like and what is in harmony with God.

So may point is, you are totally wrong about Methodism. While it is not common for Methodists to embrace the study of comparative religion, no one ever judged my grandfather for a single second. He was a deacon of our church and on the board of directors.

And he wasn’t even a liberal. He was extremely conservative on most issues. So I shouldn’t make such a clear cut distinction between liberals and conservatives, even though Jesus was a radical liberal.

Splayd · May 5, 2006

What is your obsession with bigotry Mike? I want to understand where you're coming from. Is God being a bigot in the following verses, if He is actually saying that He really is the only god and all others are false and not to be worshipped?

Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.

Deu 6:14 You shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people all around you,
Deu 6:15 for Jehovah your God is a jealous God among you, lest the anger of Jehovah your God be kindled against you and destroy you from off the face of the earth.

Psa 81:9 there shall be no strange god in you; nor shall you worship any strange god.

Isa 45:21 Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.

Isa 45:22 Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, Go, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

1Co 8:6 but there is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

Monotheistic religions don’t believe in another god, they believe in only one God. It is not another God, there is only one God. You can tell a false religion from a true religion because it has all of the same hallmarks as the Bible, except that they came earlier so they could hardly make mention of Jesus.

The Bible says that the pagan gods are really demons. The pagans did not believe in God, just demons. When they say god with a lower case ‘g’ it is really a demon. These gods do not share the characteristics of God in any way shape or form, entirely unlike monotheistic religions, for which their description is identical to the Biblical description of God.

The one exception to this is Islam. It talks about only one God but it is missing the moral precepts of the Bible and explicitly drums up religious bigotry against Christians and Jews. It is the religious bigotry of the Qur’an that gives you your assurance that it comes from a demon, not from God. Mohammed didn’t write the Qur’an, it was dictated to him by an unseen entity that claimed to be the archangel Gabriel. But it sounds like an angry Hellfire and brimstone sermon. That is demonic. Bigotry and incitement to violence against monotheistic religions is demonic. So it was not the archangel Gabriel, it was an arch-demon.

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

BTW, the Qur'an says all that stuff too, put no god before me, etc... Do you think that Islam is divine? Hardly, so clearly those kinds of injunctions can be twisted into the wrong context, turned around back against God to attack God's own words.

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

I should give a little bit of context on Methodism, John Wesley preached against hellfire and brimstone sermons. He did not think that they were of God, and that they only appealed to the morally reprobate who had to be frightened into conversion. Moral people are drawn by love, reprobates only by threats and fear. When reprobates turn to religion they distort it, molding God in their own reprobate image. So when I made the statement about hellfire and brimstone sermons being automatically demonic, that is something from my Methodist upbringing, I should not have just assumed that it was obvious to everyone.

Splayd · May 5, 2006

Mike I don't think you've ever answered a single question I've asked you.
Can you please tell me, if you would consider those verses to be examples of religious bigotry if taken literally.

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

Well, I thought my answer was clear, but here it is again, they refer to demons. It is not bigotry to call a spade a spade and call out the evil of demons. The distinction is that monotheistic religions do not worship demons. Paganism was not monotheistic.

Splayd · May 5, 2006

Alright - so even though all the pagans thought they were worshipping gods, the fact that they were wrong doesn't make God a bigot for suggesting He alone was God? Because He really is God and they really were wrong, it's not religious bigotry to point out that their religion is false and will not save them?

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

Yes, of course!

Splayd · May 5, 2006

If it's not bigotry to recognise that the people who followed other gods got it wrong and that God is the only true God (because it's true) surely saying 'people who follow other paths to salvation got it wrong and Jesus is the only way to salvation' can only be bigotry if it's wrong.
If it's right it's simply calling a spade a spade is it not?

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

Not if they are following God and you are trying to make out like they are following demons. Are you saying that monotheistic religions follow a great demon who is pretending to be God? If so, there should be some parallels to paganism. Just because they have a different langauge doesn't mean that their word for God is refering to something else.

Splayd · May 5, 2006

No - I'm not saying any of those things at all. I'm asking a simple question.
Is it bigotry to say that Jesus is the only way... if it's true?

mike1reynolds · May 5, 2006

That is not a self contained statement without implications. The implications vary radically upon interpretions. My interpretation, and the interpretation of the 3/4ths majority of Christianity is not bigoted. Interpretations that ignore Biblical references to innate knowledge of God, such as the list of verses that I gave earlier, result in bigoted interpretations. The statement is not innately bigoted, it has to be twisted into bigotry by taking it out of context and ignoring many passages of the Bible.

Do Disbelievers Go Too Hell?

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I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!

I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!

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