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Do Creationists Know Who James Hutton Is?

Kahalachan

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We hear about Darwin a lot, but not of James Hutton, the father of modern geology.

He pre-dates Darwin and figured out the earth had to be much older than previously thought. Many geologists of that time, believed God created individual animals but upon seeing the evidence presented, realize the earth is much older than it seems.

So much blame gets put on Darwin cause he's the popular role model for Evolution, but the findings of geology which pre-date the theory of evolution made it all possible. It was geology that started the dating of the fossils and allowed Darwin to come up with the theory of natural selection.

Why is evolution focussed on so much, with nothing directed towards geology? Geology deals with unobservable changes over a long time as well. Astronomy too.

So much attack on Darwin and evolution, but it was the aid of the other sciences that gave birth to evolution and kept it alive and, ironically, evolving itself into a more fit theory.
 

TemperateSeaIsland

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Creationists follow a mythos that goes through the creation of everything in a single narrative. Science doesnt do that, everything is seperated into different theories in different fields. For example big bang/formation of stars and planets involves cosmology/astronomy, abiogenesis involves the study of chemistry/geochemistry, and the ToE is a theory within biology. But all these massivly differing fields say the same things 1) the earth and universe are very old, 2) the processes that got us here have been going on for an long time. The creationst preferes to put all of these findings into a single monolithic worldview called evolution to better attack it.
 
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Baggins

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I wrote an essay on James Hutton when I was challenged to a debate about deep time by someone called Wolfbittengodsmitten. He claimed he could out debate anybody on these boards but left pretty sharpish when I actually tried to engage him.

To save the creationists the bother of having to google him or run him through wikipedia, we know how actually trying to learn anything makes their brains ache, here it is.

It is a potted history of the man and his massive contribution to the founding of the science of geology.

James Hutton and Deep Time

Before the 18th century enlightenment there hadn’t been any systematic investigation of the earth and its geology.

Polymaths like Galileo and Descartes had written on the subject but hadn’t gone into any great detail, some “cosmogonies” - all encompassing treatise on the earth had been written; the best being Steno’s Dissertation - famous for correctly surmising what a fossil was and for describing for the first time the process of sedimentation - while still sticking to a strict biblical creation.

The vast majority of people of all educational standards would have agreed that the earth appeared before them as it always had done since the beginning of time, and if they were up to date with the work of Ussher the Archbishop of Aramaugh - Annales Veteris Testamenti - they would be aware that the Earth was created on the morning of the 16th October 4004 BC at 9 am.

James Hutton is a man not widely known outside of the geological community and yet he was one the greatest scientific thinkers Great Britain has ever produced. He developed the concept of “Deep Time”, he discovered the secret of the Earth’s great age, and to my mind that ranks him along side men of genius like Newton and Darwin.

Hutton was born in 1726 , the year before newton’s death, to well off parents of the Edinburgh Mercantile and professional classes, and he would pursue Newton’s idea of the universe obeying constant laws to the activities of the earth, and in so doing he would wipe out 1500 years of biblical literalism.

His education was the best available at the time, he trained at Edinburgh’s medical school where he was considered bright if somewhat aimless pupil. He continued his studies in Paris at its University pursuing anatomy and also becoming interested in chemistry. He was changing from training for medical practice to becoming, what was known in those days as, a natural philosopher. from there he moved on to Leyden in Holland where he completed he medical degree. he had one of the finest educations achievable in 18th century Europe.

He put that education to good use in his early career as a chemist, he used a technique that he and a friend had developed to set up a chemical works in london ( producing sal ammoniac ), this proves that he was a gifted chemist and a canny business man as this made him financially secure.


He returned north to run a family farm in the Scottish Borders in the Blackadder Valley. He studied the latest farming techniques in Norfolk and turned them to his own property with great success. We can assume that it was during this time that he started to take an interest in his land and the geology that underpinned it. This interest lead to him travelling the UK over the rest of his life until there was scarcely an area he hadn’t visited and studied.


He spent 13 years farming before deciding, in 1754, to return to live in Edinburgh. He had already started to develop his theories on the Earth by then and was also known as the leading mineralogist in Scotland. His starting point for his theories, his Galapagos finches if you will, was watching the soil of his fields slowly being stripped away by erosion. His first two key points was that his soil was made of a mixture of organic material and the products of erosion of the local sedimentary rocks, and that this erosion of the rock’s surface was constant. These ideas were not strictly new, but the way that he had linked erosion and deposition was novel.

He lived during a period of intellectual flourishing that we now call the Scottish Enlightenment, a period of original thought that is quite extraordinary. Great men of this period include: David Hume, the philosopher, Adam Smith, the world’s first economic theorist, James Watt, of steam power fame, and Joseph Black, the chemist, these are the most famous names ( alongside Hutton ) to come from this great flowering of original thought. Edinburgh became known as the Athens of the North. Hutton was a central player in this enlightenment, free from the burden of employment he spelt the rest of his life developing his theories. Towards the end of the 18th century this intellectual flowering had a formal forum for its debates when the Royal Society of Edinburgh was set up. Hutton was a founder member, and he used it to finally bring his theories to a wider circle of his peers, he was challenged to synthesise his ideas into 2 lectures in 1784, and he spent the next few months bring together his lifetimes work. This would be the spark that lead to modern geology, the understanding of the true age of the earth and, to some extent, evolutionary biology.


The majority of natural philosophers of the period thought, if they though about geology at all, that rocks had precipitated from an universal ocean, that was certainly the theory that was taught at Edinburgh University at the time, and it was the Theory expounded by Werner, who was acclaimed as the greatest authority on the systems of the Earth in his day it was widely assumed that these waters were either the waters of creation or the waters of the Noachian flood. But Hutton had already discovered experimentally that rocks contained substances that were insoluble in water. He, along with Joseph Black, also came to the conclusion that heat from within the earth was the only possible mineralising principle ( as he called lithification ), and that this along with great pressure, such as that at the sea floor, could lead to lithification ( he was in fact wrong that lithification needs heat as well as pressure, just pressure can lead to lithification ). This insight along with his previous thoughts on erosion and deposition laid the ground work for modern geology. But his lectures would put him at odds with the establishment of his day.

On the day of the first lecture, March 7th 1785, Hutton was so sick ( with nerves? ) that his friend Joseph Black had to read his prepared notes to the Society, thus giving it his implicit approval. This first line was; “ Concerning the systems of the Earth, its duration and stability. The lecture outlined Hutton’s ideas on how the rocks that we walk on today are made up of the waste of previous rocks in a seemingly endless cycle of erosion and deposition. This was well evidenced form Hutton’s many journey around Great Britain. It was explained how rocks lithified in the oceans, how they were then lifted up to form land and these rocks in turn were eroded into the ocean to be lithified. The end of the lecture discounted precipitation as the means for lithification and in its stead proposed heat and pressure.

The second lecture 4 weeks later was delivered by Hutton. In this he proposed that the rocks being eroded weren’t raised to land by a drop in water level but were raised from the sea through the action of the earth’s internal heat. This again was evidenced. If rocks came to be on land through a drop in water level ( as the precipitation theory held ) then all the strata should be more or less horizontal. and they aren’t. A force was pushing the rocks up, fracturing and folding them too. He had evidence of this heat in the form of mineralised veins in cracks in the rocks. He also saw dykes and sills of volcanic rock pushing up through older strata from deeper levels. There is a famous exposure on Arthur’s Seat in Edinburgh, it is a place where igneous sill of Salisbury Crags has pieces of the country rock it was intruded into within it, thus proving that it was forced into older rocks. he also noted that he saw land fossils ( plants etc. ) in marine sediments, thus proving that the sediment had been eroded from land into water,a nd had now been raised up onto land to be eroded once again.

Finally he came to the crucial question of timing. What sort of time scale did he envisage for these events. He urged his listeners to ponder the erosion of rock that they knew from their studies, he surmised that from the perspective of human lifetimes that this prospect had no beginning and no end. He wasn’t arguing for an eternal earth, just one unfathomably old.

This was a bombshell. No one in the room, save a few close friends had expected such an earth shattering conclusion. Only one other thinker had ever postulated an earth older than the biblical 6000 years ( Buffon whose theory that the earth had cooled from a molten ball over 75,000 years ) and his theory had lost ground to that of werner’s precipitation theory within the timeframe of the Bible. here was an idea that challenged man’s position at the centre of the cosmos.
 
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Baggins

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Pt 2

Hutton’s ideas appear to have been accepted within the circle of the RSE, but is was to be a number of years before they received a wider readership. The feedback from the Society was positive but they demanded further proof in some areas. The major nay sayers in the group were the lecturers in geology from the University. The major bone of contention that need further evidence was his idea of the cyclicity of erosion and deposition, and the source of heat required to raise his rocks from the seabed. Like the great scientist he was, Hutton resolved to go into the field and provide more proof for his ideas.

His first line of attack was to disprove the precipitation of granites and prove their emplacement into older country rock as hot bodies. To do this he needed to find sedimentary strata cut by granite, this would falsify the Wernerian hypothesis that all rocks precipitated from the Noachian flood and that granites precipitated first and sedimentary rocks precipitated later. In Glen Tilt in the highlands he found what he was looking for, and the first piece of supporting evidence was there. This was another piece of evidence of an old earth as well, because it was inconceivable that granite could crystallise in under 6000 years from molten rock. The next year a field trip to Galloway provided more evidence of younger granites intruding older sedimentary rocks. The following year, yet more evidence on Arran around the Goat Fell granite batholith. His theory of hot granite emplacement into younger sedimentary rocks was well an truely proven. next up was further proof of the cyclicity of erosion and deposition.

This duly arrived in 1788 when Hutton made his most famous discovery, that of the Silurian/Devonian angular unconformity at Siccar Point SE of Edinburgh. This was a case similar to the Tiktaalik fossil case, Hutton knew what he wanted to find and where it should be possible to find he, and true to his prediction he did find it. This was also the year when his original lectures were finally published. The reviews were mixed, some were broadly supportive while waiting for further evidence, one or two were vituperative, he was accused of being an atheist and a blasphemer ( plus ca change.... ). He was unperturbed as he now knew that the evidence was stacking up in his favour.

Sadly in the 1790s Hutton became weaker and weaker, he published a book on his ideas, but due to his ill health it was poorly written, and it seemed that ideas may die with him. But just as Darwin had his bulldog - Huxley - Hutton too had a disciple who would “keep the flame alive” - John Playfair. he had accompanied Hutton on many of his evidence gathering trips, and he was their when Hutton had set off to look for his unconformity on the coast of Scotland, the prediction coming true fully convinced Playfair that Hutton was correct and his theory needed disseminating. He had an enemy in Robert Jameson who was firmly against Hutton's ideas. These two would battle over Hutton’s legacy in the early 19th century. Jameson was a Wernerian and a prolific publisher of books, his books were hostile to Huttonian geology. Playfair would take up the cudgels on his mentors behalf, and with the unpublished field work on granites and erosional cyclicity he would deal wernerian geology a death blow ( getting a bit melodramatic here ).

Playfair published his defence of Hutton in 1802 - ~Illustrations of the Huttonian Theory of the Earth. It was well written, well evidenced and a best seller. Another Huttonian disciple, hall, turned his attention to subterranean heat. Wernerians had produced and experiment to refute Hutton, they heated up basalt and allowed it to cool quickly forming glass, not a crystalline rock as would be expected in the Huttonian model. All though this was fairly shoddy, as theirs was the dominant theory they didn't feel the need to do more than swat away Hutton’s ideas. Halls idea was to heat and cool basalt very slowly, what would happen then? You guessed didn’t you, they reformed into crystalline rocks, but much finer than basalts ( because they will cool slower than a laboratory can recreate ). So Hall set out a knew experiment to prove that limestone would not disintegrate under heat and pressure as Wernerians proposed to refute Hutton’s ideas on lithification. Hill produced over 500 experiments virtually inventing experimental geology in the process, he created pressure vessels and high temperature thermometers. The Limestones were heated to 1000 degrees centigrade under pressure and lost no weight, Hutton was once again vindicated. But When Playfair died young in 1822 while Jameson was still going strong taking the Wernerian geology course in Edinburgh, Hutton's idea was once again under grave threat.

Huttonian geology would finally become standard in the 1820s and 30s when a young geologist called Charles Lyell took up Hutton’s ideas. He’d been to Siccar point and he knew the truth of Hutton’s theory from that point. Lyell had been taught Noachian Flood geology at University ( by William Buckland, a founder of the Geological Society ). But by now, evidence was turning up all over the world that falsified the Wernerian/Noachian flood model. Charles Mantell in Sussex discovered terrestrial fossils below the marine chalks of his county, these were in a deltaic sandstone. This whole ensemble had been raised up along the South Coast of England and was now eroding into the sea. Sequences of freshwater and saltwater deposits were found in the Paris Basin. Volcanic activity was found to raise land from the sea. In 1830 Lyell produced “The Principle of Geology” , the first great Geological text, it was Huttonian in context. The battle was over bar the shouting, Lyell proclaimed the theory would prevail even though it was not yet established. It quoted Hutton as saying “ In the economy of the world I can find no traces of a beginning and no prospect of an end “. This was the book That Charles Darwin took with him on the Beagle.


So finally why did Siccar Point play such a starring role in persuading people that Hutton was correct? I have been there myself, Geologists visit this site every day. It is simply that the folded underlying Silurian rocks are overlain by flat lying devonian rocks, the bottom layer of the Devonian being a conglomerate containing pieces of the older Silurian rocks. Overwhelming evidence on sedimentation, uplift, folding and erosion in cycles. It was the final proof that Hutton required to make his name.

Today Hutton is almost unknown outside geological circles, but his theory of deep time cyclicity and “ The present is the key to the past “ uniformitarianism is the basis of modern geology.

Hutton was not an atheist, he was probably ( going by his writings ) a Deist, as were many people at this time. He believed he had discovered god given laws in the same way that Newton had. He also falsified young earth creationism and the prevalent flood geology of his day and he did it 220 years ago.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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rmwilliamsll

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He lived during a period of intellectual flourishing that we now call the Scottish Enlightenment, a period of original thought that is quite extraordinary. Great men of this period include: David Hume, the philosopher, Adam Smith, the world’s first economic theorist, James Watt, of steam power fame, and Joseph Black, the chemist, these are the most famous names ( alongside Hutton ) to come from this great flowering of original thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enlightenment

add Thomas Reid to the list and i'll agree with everything you wrote *grin*
 
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Grengor

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Why is evolution focussed on so much, with nothing directed towards geology? Geology deals with unobservable changes over a long time as well. Astronomy too.

I asked a friend earlier this week what she thought on Evolution, and when asked to define it for me:

Me: To you, what is evolution?

Chalan: it is a theory that the universe was formed from sub atomic matter also includes natural selection and survival of the fittest

Many just group it all together, so if they attack one part of evolution, they assume they're attacking the big bang, uniformitarianism, etc.

Quite an interesting interview, maybe I'll post a thread about it later.
 
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Loudmouth

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We hear about Darwin a lot, but not of James Hutton, the father of modern geology.

When have you ever heard of a creationist who compares James Hutton to the devil? When that happens his name will be brought up more. Modern geology is never referenced as "Hutton's Theory", but evolution is referenced by it's founder. That is probably why he is not mentioned much.

Also, Lyell seems to be a much bigger name in the early history of geology.

So much blame gets put on Darwin cause he's the popular role model for Evolution, but the findings of geology which pre-date the theory of evolution made it all possible. It was geology that started the dating of the fossils and allowed Darwin to come up with the theory of natural selection.

Someone should tell YEC's this, they seem to forget. Before modern radiometric dating the fossils could only be given relative dates (ie one fossil is older/younger than another fossil). The claims that an old earth is clung to in order to support evolution couldn't be farther from the truth. An old earth was a solid conclusion well before Darwin's work.
 
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DailyBlessings

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We hear about Darwin a lot, but not of James Hutton, the father of modern geology.

He pre-dates Darwin and figured out the earth had to be much older than previously thought. Many geologists of that time, believed God created individual animals but upon seeing the evidence presented, realize the earth is much older than it seems.

So much blame gets put on Darwin cause he's the popular role model for Evolution, but the findings of geology which pre-date the theory of evolution made it all possible. It was geology that started the dating of the fossils and allowed Darwin to come up with the theory of natural selection.

Why is evolution focussed on so much, with nothing directed towards geology? Geology deals with unobservable changes over a long time as well. Astronomy too.

So much attack on Darwin and evolution, but it was the aid of the other sciences that gave birth to evolution and kept it alive and, ironically, evolving itself into a more fit theory.
'course, Hutton is not all that well known outside of Creation science, either. Lot of people know Lyell, only geologists and archaeologists seem to be familiar with Hutton as a rule. Or William Smith, for that matter- another one whose work creates some severe problems for young earthers. We can nail stratigraphy down to events that happened a few years apart in some cases, which invalidates any notion that humanity is younger than a million years or so.
 
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DailyBlessings

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It's not how much one knows about the age of rocks that matters --- what matters is if the Rock of Ages knows you.
What does that have to do with the original question? Are you suggesting that Christ is unfamiliar with geology and those who study it? If so, I would rather disagree.
 
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USincognito

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An old earth was a solid conclusion well before Darwin's work.

but it was an old earth in terms of tens or at most a hundred million years.

To be fair, while off, those calculations were orders of magnitude closer to being correct than Ussher's calculations. :cool:
 
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AngryWomble

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Psshh. Hutton was a racist. Geology is bunk.

Firstly, please post something, i.e. research or an online copy of an original document, that shows your assertion that Hutton was racist.

Secondly, How much studying have you done of Geology to determine that it is bunk? I've personally got 7 years experience of learning geology under my belt so i know that it is far from being bunk. So how about you?
 
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TheInstant

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Firstly, please post something, i.e. research or an online copy of an original document, that shows your assertion that Hutton was racist.

Secondly, How much studying have you done of Geology to determine that it is bunk? I've personally got 7 years experience of learning geology under my belt so i know that it is far from being bunk. So how about you?

I refuse to meet your demands.

Why?

Because it was supposed to be a joke :blush:

It's the kind of thing that some creationists use to discredit evolution. "Darwin was a racist" - I know I've heard that "argument" more than a few times, as if it's somehow supposed to impact evolutionary theory.

But I guess, according to Poe's Law, I should have used a winking smiley, or some other blatant display of humor. My apologies.
 
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AngryWomble

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I refuse to meet your demands.

Why?

Because it was supposed to be a joke :blush:

It's the kind of thing that some creationists use to discredit evolution. "Darwin was a racist" - I know I've heard that "argument" more than a few times, as if it's somehow supposed to impact evolutionary theory.

But I guess, according to Poe's Law, I should have used a winking smiley, or some other blatant display of humor. My apologies.

*lol*

No worries, and to be fair i was out last night and my brain still isn't recovered.....
 
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