Do conservative leaders read or understand the Word of God?

[Rev. Smith]

Our friend Sharp posited the position that those who believe in liberal theology do not read the Bible, nor do we encourage our congregations to do so. This has not been my experience, in fact I've never seen a single liberal church that did not have an active Bible Study or Theology group.

What I have observed is that evangelicals use the Bible differently than we do, they may be a victim of the apologetics system they seem so enamoured of.

It seems to me that they start with a proposition, and set out to find scripture that proves it. On the other hand liberal theologins apear to me to take the question, and then go off and read the Bible (often the whole Bible), attempting to extract the teaching on the subject.

For example, Sharp proposes that war and the death penalty are both justifed, since the commandment reads "You shall not murder", rather than kill. He is correct as far as he goes, but gives no mention to any of the other teaching that demands caution and moral certainty in war, and a death penalty only for certain proof in a very short list of offenses (most of which rarely come up anymore - anyone live in a country that has a death penalty for adultory or beastiality?)

So, can conservatives be lead to the Word, or are we wasting our time?

 

[Sharp]

Our friend Sharp posited the position that those who believe in liberal theology do not read the Bible, nor do we encourage our congregations to do so. This has not been my experience, in fact I've never seen a single liberal church that did not have an active Bible Study or Theology group.

I question the above. The real major damage done to the people in the pew is by the Sunday sermon and the Sunday School lessons. Some so-called Bible studies I have attended in an ecumenical context were more like comparaitve religion classes than true Bible studies.

Still I sincerely hope what you have written is true and becoming more typical. Keep the Bible studies going. The Word of God is greater than the strongest theologian!

What I have observed is that evangelicals use the Bible differently than we do, they may be a victim of the apologetics system they seem so enamoured of.

It seems to me that they start with a proposition, and set out to find scripture that proves it. On the other hand liberal theologins apear to me to take the question, and then go off and read the Bible (often the whole Bible), attempting to extract the teaching on the subject.

This has not been my total observation, but I have to admit that all of us suffer the conflict of prior suppositons with a disagreeing text. I submit the conservative solution is to attempt to get at the truth (what you claim is the liberal solution). I beleive the actual liberal solution is more flip: Liberalism doesn't necessarily care or even admit there is truth! It is all relative and subjective and existential anyway in liberalism. Why bother?

For example, Sharp proposes that war and the death penalty are both justifed, since the commandment reads "You shall not murder", rather than kill. He is correct as far as he goes, ...

Thank you. I hope the unlearned pay attention.

...but gives no mention to any of the other teaching that demands caution and moral certainty in war, and a death penalty only for certain proof in a very short list of offenses (most of which rarely come up anymore - anyone live in a country that has a death penalty for adultory or beastiality?)

Gasp! Did you try to omit murder and treason from your list? I would be in favor of the death penalty for adultory, beastiality, homosexual sex acts, rape, and adult-child sex. They are all Biblical bases for the death penalty and I agree.

I agree with you that we need to be certain of the guilt of the offender first.

So, can conservatives be lead to the Word, or are we wasting our time?

Good question, my friend. We all need to approach the Word humbly and be instructed. Perhaps we conservatives and liberals alike can benefit one another by an exposure to the Bible in mutual humility.

 

[Rage4Christ]

We struggle to live the truth-- but caution to those who think they "know" the truth.
There is a reason why we need Christ in our lives. Should we ever think we "know" the truth-- what use do we have of Christ?

Conservatives use Christ as an authority for their knowledge, rather than using Christ as their guide in a life seeking knowledge and making choices.

 

[Celestron]

It's possible that conservatives are there to keep us in balance... so we don't venture off too far. Someone has to be a bible student...

then again, I used to be a fan of a progressive preacher that many churches where i live have disfellowshipped... Terry Rush... former baseball player... forgot the team, look it up on the internet... anyway, he made a statement once from the pulpit...

"Jesus doesn't sit well with bible students."

Our congregation eventually got booted from a bible college internationally known.
issues that contributed possibly were: discipleship, women praying with men, hand clapping

 

[seebs]

Well, the thing is... Most of the liberals I know are more serious Bible students than most of the conservatives I know. They're more likely to read the whole Bible, rather than one or two passages, or to be familiar with the questions and debates about a given passage.

 

[rnmomof7]

Well, the thing is... Most of the liberals I know are more serious Bible students than most of the conservatives I know. They're more likely to read the whole Bible, rather than one or two passages, or to be familiar with the questions and debates about a given passage.

Seebs may I ask you and all the posters if they read the bible daily? Do all of you attend a Bible study?


I think that you have stated an unprovable .
Most fundamental Christians would say that those from liberal churches bend the Scripture or ignore scriptures plain meaning to further their agenda.

So it seems we all have the same suspicion.

I will start.
I send about 1 hour a day reading and studying scripture.
During the school year I attend 2 to 3 Bible studies .

One at a home and one or two at church .

So now it is your turn

 

[seebs]

Seebs may I ask you and all the posters if they read the bible daily? Do all of you attend a Bible study?

You may ask.

I think that you have stated an unprovable .
Most fundamental Christians would say that those from liberal churches bend the Scripture or ignore scriptures plain meaning to further their agenda.

So it seems we all have the same suspicion.

Yeah.

In short... What really happens is, people on both sides study the Bible, but they do so in very different ways. Someone pointed out that this was the essential split on abolition; both sides studied the Bible, but they way they studied it was very different, so they got different answers.

I will start.
I send about 1 hour a day reading and studying scripture.
During the school year I attend 2 to 3 Bible studies .

One at a home and one or two at church .

So now it is your turn

The amount of time I spend studying the Bible varies widely. I'll spend an hour or two tracking down analysis of a passage some days, and just browse around idly others. Some days, I don't bother, although I doubt there's any days when I don't at least discuss scripture.

Bible studies? I don't "go" to them, but I do them, here and elsewhere. I read pretty much anything anyone posts near me on Biblical analysis.

But... Let's compare what we mean by a "Bible study". I've heard a lot of people talk about Bible studies in which someone showed them what a passage meant. What about studies where people pick a passage, or a topic, and study the Bible without starting with a claim to know what it means, and try to figure out what meanings it might have, and consider how to decide between them?

There's an observation in the computer industry that some guys have ten years of experience, and some guys have one year of experience ten times.

I've seen a lot of people "studying the Bible" who are not so much studying it looking to learn what it means, as trying to find a way to impose existing beliefs on it.

 

[rnmomof7]

You may ask.



But... Let's compare what we mean by a "Bible study". I've heard a lot of people talk about Bible studies in which someone showed them what a passage meant. What about studies where people pick a passage, or a topic, and study the Bible without starting with a claim to know what it means, and try to figure out what meanings it might have, and consider how to decide between them?

Seebs I have belonged to a couple of denominations .
All denominations 'proof text' to a certain extent as they select "supporting verses" for their doctrine.

IE Charismatics see the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a different light than Wesleyans or Calvinists. We would all agree it is true, and agree on some aspects of it, but differ in others.

I am separating Bible Studies from things like doctrinal education for new members.


Here is what my bible studies were last year.

One was on Paul, It followed his work through acts.
It touched on some of the letters as they tied into his travels .
It was not doctrinal ( that study has a Catholic and a couple of baptists in it)
We did at a couple points discuss the doctrinal issues involved. It was not spoon fed , but highly discussed.

One was a survey ( a walk through the bible) as taught by our pastor.
It was primarily a discussion of the historical context and the primary actors. Occasionally he would cross reference to a NT text.

One that I did the first half of the year was a Kay Arthur Study of Abraham .

Anyone familiar with her knows it is a rigorous program , that stresses historical , geographical , social look at whatever.

I would call it non denominational as many many churches use her program .

Now my personal study tends to be textual .
Taking a text and seeing how the bible defines it . (as sola scriptura I believe the bible defines itself, but I will go to greek or hebrew sources or to commentaries .. )

I usually have a book going too.I read that when I am away from home and I know I have down time.

The current one is a book by JI Packer called Knowing God.

We are told to hide the word of God in our heart.
I take it seriously .

There's an observation in the computer industry that some guys have ten years of experience, and some guys have one year of experience ten times.

I've seen a lot of people "studying the Bible" who are not so much studying it looking to learn what it means, as trying to find a way to impose existing beliefs on it.

I think I have seen alot of that from the liberals :>)
Making guesses about context when the Holy Spirit INTENTIONALLY did not provide it or speculation of what would be written today as opposed to then , as if God was unaware of the future needs of His people.

The Bible is written for believers. It is only understood by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, IMHO

 

[Zen_Woof]

The Bible is written for believers. It is only understood by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, IMHO.

Greetings.

What is the point of apologetics then if the Bible only yields its secrets to those who already believe? Perhaps apologetics is a useless exercise?

With metta,
ZW

 

[seebs]

Seebs I have belonged to a couple of denominations .
All denominations 'proof text' to a certain extent as they select "supporting verses" for their doctrine.

IE Charismatics see the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a different light than Wesleyans or Calvinists. We would all agree it is true, and agree on some aspects of it, but differ in others.

I am separating Bible Studies from things like doctrinal education for new members.

Fair enough.

Well, to be picky, I'm pretty sure my church doesn't do that, because the church itself has no doctrine at all to promote.

But yeah, I do see your point, and I understand the distinction; I just find that many "Bible study" classes end up nonetheless being built around promoting doctrine.

We are told to hide the word of God in our heart.
I take it seriously.

Indeed. I wish more people took it as seriously.

The Bible is written for believers. It is only understood by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, IMHO

I actually mostly agree on this - I just think the Holy Spirit gives us tools, as well.

 

[rnmomof7]

Greetings.

What is the point of apologetics then if the Bible only yields its secrets to those who already believe? Perhaps apologetics is a useless exercise?

With metta,
ZW

We study to know and understand God better. Much like a woman wants to know and understand her love .


Christ is the bridegroom of the Church .

Conservatives take the bible at its word.
it says it is written for believers.

1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned


Jesus confirmed that the unsaved can not receive the things of God. Speaking of the unbelieving masses that heard Him teach

Mat 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Without the Holy Spirit the words of God are foolishness.

Jhn 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Cr 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


1Jo 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jo 5:20
Andwe know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


To the unsaved the Bible and the Gospel is foolishness. Even an effort at spiritual understanding is impossible without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit .


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 

[CaDan]

To the unsaved the Bible and the Gospel is foolishness. Even an effort at spiritual understanding is impossible without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit .

Has anyone let the Gideons in on this?

 

[CaDan]

Well, the thing is... Most of the liberals I know are more serious Bible students than most of the conservatives I know. They're more likely to read the whole Bible, rather than one or two passages, or to be familiar with the questions and debates about a given passage.

My obervation has been generally that those who shout the loudest read the least. Its hard to shout out a nuanced, well-read, and well-understood position, be it liberal or conservative.

The shouters, unfortunately, seem to mostly holding "conservative" positions. Note that the I am saying that shouters tend to be conservative, NOT that conservatives tend to be shouters.

 

[Christi]

Common sense says that the more pride we have, the less humility we have.

Jesus said humility is good.

OR, we could start bickering about who's His favorite?

But why can't we just be happy that we are ALL His favorite, and wish it for everyone?

 

[rnmomof7]

Fair enough.

Well, to be picky, I'm pretty sure my church doesn't do that, because the church itself has no doctrine at all to promote.

But yeah, I do see your point, and I understand the distinction; I just find that many "Bible study" classes end up nonetheless being built around promoting doctrine.



Indeed. I wish more people took it as seriously.



I actually mostly agree on this - I just think the Holy Spirit gives us tools, as well.

Agreement is good.

 

[rnmomof7]

Has anyone let the Gideons in on this?

It is my suspicion they know this.
Seeing we never know when the Holy Spirit will act or where , it is wisdom to place Bibles where they can be read and preach the gospel .

 

[seebs]

The shouters, unfortunately, seem to mostly holding "conservative" positions. Note that the I am saying that shouters tend to be conservative, NOT that conservatives tend to be shouters.

This is an interesting point. I wonder why it is so.

Theories:
1. Many conservatives hold simpler, "sound-bite" positions. A lot of conservative churches don't hold with "intellectualizing" Christianity.
2. More static positions are easier to advocate by yelling and repitition.
3. If you were converted by shouting, you'll tend to hold the same positions that were shouted at you.
4. Liberals are much more likely to reject "one size fits all" answers and theology, leaning towards personal searching, which doesn't lend itself well to shouting.

At this point, I urge everyone who hasn't yet to read Pratchett's Small Gods... But better yet, read the stuff that comes AFTER it, where members of this militantly-liberal religion go about very politely giving people pamphlets, and giving their children names like "Visit The Infidel With Informative Booklets".

 

[Abiel]

I find that the more I study my bible, the more there is to know...so the more I study, the less(proportionally) I know. This is very humbling, and generally prevents my from barking out my position.


ps so we are allowed to read Terry Pratchett???I'm glad!

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I think the biggest problem for anyone studying the Bible is an unconscious argument my theology professor shared with us at the beginning of my New Testament class.

Premise: The Bible is true.
Premise: What I believe is true.
Therefore what I believe is in the Bible.

 

[Rev. Smith]

I think the biggest problem for anyone studying the Bible is an unconscious argument my theology professor shared with us at the beginning of my New Testament class.

Premise: The Bible is true.
Premise: What I believe is true.
Therefore what I believe is in the Bible.

Well said, I think that sums the entire problem up nicely! I'll certainly use the argument, what was the Prof's name so I can credit it?