Do Christians view people as generally evil?

[MelissaShae]

Many people are wrong about what God thought about slavery. Slaves in biblical days were people who committed crimes and their sentences were those of slaves, much like jail today.

 

[Rafael]

The question I asked relates to how sin is defined so I made a new thread on that. For now lets suppose that we define sin to be either breaking one of Gods rules or to do something God condemns in the Bible. If we hold that view then it would be possible to be a none sinning slave owner (at least in the act of owning slaves) if that slave owner followed the regulations set forth in the Bible. However by modern standards we would view that slave owner as evil. This would not only imply that evil is a human construct but that God's rules are not inline with what we would view as evil.

Would a manufacturer that has employees that depend upon him supplying them livelyhood and work be considered a slave owner, today? It is much the same in comparison. Indentured servants in the colonial days of America would better fit, where a contract was made with owner and servant on how long one would work for food, shelter and livelyhood. In the times of the Bible, if an owner followed God's law concerning those who sold themselves into slavery, they were treated as family and given favor until they found a way to take care of themselves with better employment. If they had lost lands and property that was handed down by family, they could recover that every fifty years on the year of Jubilee when all debts were cancelled. Some slaves would love their masters so much that they would become bondslaves to them, and this typeology is used for those that love God.

 

[tapero]

The question I asked relates to how sin is defined so I made a new thread on that. For now lets suppose that we define sin to be either breaking one of Gods rules or to do something God condemns in the Bible. If we hold that view then it would be possible to be a none sinning slave owner (at least in the act of owning slaves) if that slave owner followed the regulations set forth in the Bible. However by modern standards we would view that slave owner as evil. This would not only imply that evil is a human construct but that God's rules are not inline with what we would view as evil.

Hi, Thanks for writing back.

I have to begin this with all are sinners. The slave owner is a sinner even regardless of his profession.

However, I do see what you are asking. Just as in the usa in recent times (using usa cause i live here) certain peoples in the usa did not have protection as others in the USA did and were oppressed. Evil was done freely to them in many instances and there was no provision for their God given rights be protected by usa laws.

There are other things also, but controversial issues.

Beyond my length of years, and not good with history, I don't know what else we did in the usa that was wrong. But I know we've done plenty.

Now, in the times of the bible it was not percieved to be a sin, that I know of, to have slaves. I saw a reply in this thread that slaves were criminals, which was not the case, but may have been true of certain slaves. However, I don't know a lot on this topic either from the ot.

Of course the Hebrews were slaves to Egypt.
And God freed them from their slavery to pharoah.

Now, if slave owning is a sin in God's eyes, i would suspect that in the law books it would have been so stated. However, He gives certain laws about slavery and though I used word search, couldn't find anything noteworthy to post here.

I have heard that in those times, in that culture that this was acceptable. Also note, that God does not address all human faults and sins in the bible. But again, I am not up on slavery much, just did a quick peak on it at another site, but came up empty tho I can further research as I know I've seen this discussed before (How could God allow slavery issue.)

Ok, I think again, evil since the fall, but perhaps with satan as a start. Sin in man, along with free will, does allow him to do evil acts. God doesn't seem to condemn slave owning in the bible. In those days as I understand it, being a slave might mean that they got food, shelter, etc, otherwise not given them, though of course there are evil masters and good masters. Some slaves wanted to never be freed in the OT.

God seemed to deal with the Israelites (and those who would join themselves to them) in particular in the ot, not the rest of the world. What Jesus says below, which sums up in the law and propets, reveals that this has been taught all along. to love they neighbor as yourself.

So, anyone who did not do so, I would imagine in nt times or old, were sinning.

However, again His law was only revealed to the Israelites, not all the world.

Sin was not taken into account where there was no law given. Not clear on what that means, but until Jesus came and died and was resurrected were all men then guilty to condemnation if unbelief and saved if believed.

However, before Jesus, men still were held accountable to God I believe by either believing or not believing in God. Since all have sinned. There needed to be a redeemer to save them.

I am really getting in over my head, but when Jesus died and preached to those in prison, this may refer to those who died prior to Christ, and were thus given opportunity to believe or repent. I could be all wrong about this, but just thinking about that scripture.

I do think that what we think of as evil, that God also thinks of as evil. Here's a point. Take premarital sex, something many of us succombed to prior to Christ. Now is it evil to have premarital sex in our minds? Not to everyone, but to God it is immoral, and a sin. But we don't all think of it as evil, and through time has become common practice in the usa. Speeding in traffic, being overweight by gluttony, we don't think of these things necessarily are evil, but God speaks to them. Obey the rulers, and do not be given to gluttony.

I think slavery has always been wrong, and much other in the bible has always been wrong but God did not speak to it, He dealt with the people on the issues of the heart, which is what Jesus came to do as well. The religious leaders spoke on clearning the outside of the cup, and Jesus said, you are white washed, you need to clean the inside of the cup first, then the outside will be clean.

In the little bit that we have in our bible God did not deal with all issues; His focus was to teach men how to be, what loving God is about, love the Lord your God with all your heart soul, mind and strength.

So while today, we consider slavery evil, I would think that in the slavery we are thinking of where evil occurs, in the bible times, slaves had provisions. again, could have an evil master or good master but it was provision to them to be slaves in other words, saved them from dire poverty.

But in our time, slavery is evil, because we see an oppresion of the people held as slaves. I don't think in bible times it was oppression unless they were harshly treated as was the Hebrews who God frees.

So, I do think God and man is inline with what we believe evil is..

All below is from the nt. note slaves are commanded to obey their masters whether they are harsh or good.

Note also, that slave owners will be judged by God.

Much is taught us using slave references in ref to our relationship to Christ and to the world. So I think this was readily understood by those hearing when it was related to slavery to Christ, or to satan, or the world with its practices.

When Adam and Eve were created they were not slaves, so I don't think God wanted it to come about, however it did, thru sin, and also provision for those who became slaves by their masters, evil or good.

Also note below, that its written seek your freedom if you can.

Jesus says:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

It appears from the above verse that this was the teaching in both OT and NT times, as Jesus says all teh law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments.

Here's a bit from the nt:

21Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave.

So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[a] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

1Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.

Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

I've gone on too long, but it is a difficult one.

Blessings,
tapero

 

[ApollotheLizard]

Personaly, I believe there are evil people, but not truly evil at heart. They are only corrupted by the darkness of the Devil. Or, perhaps there are no evil people, just evil things that happen to normal people that are the fault of Satan.

 

[DarkProphet]

Personaly, I believe there are evil people, but not truly evil at heart. They are only corrupted by the darkness of the Devil. Or, perhaps there are no evil people, just evil things that happen to normal people that are the fault of Satan.

You seem to blame evil on the Devil. This seems like a cop out to me because if the Devil is responsible for evil then evil people are not responsible for their actions. This contradicts the presupposition of free will (of which I agree) so I wonder, how you can reconcile that?

 

[ApollotheLizard]

Is he not? If he had not tempted Adam and Eve into sinning, there would be no sin. Thus, no evil.

 

[DarkProphet]

Is he not? If he had not tempted Adam and Eve into sinning, there would be no sin.

The serpent tempted Adam and Eve not the Devil and in any case that is not the question. The question was, "How can you say there is free will if the Devil is responsible for evil?"

 

[DarkProphet]

Would a manufacturer that has employees that depend upon him supplying them livelyhood and work be considered a slave owner, today?

It's a finer line then most care to admit but the key difference is the matter of freedom. The employee is free to leave and even though that maybe a bad decision it is his to make.

It is much the same in comparison. Indentured servants in the colonial days of America would better fit, where a contract was made with owner and servant on how long one would work for food, shelter and livelyhood. In the times of the Bible, if an owner followed God's law concerning those who sold themselves into slavery, they were treated as family and given favor until they found a way to take care of themselves with better employment. If they had lost lands and property that was handed down by family, they could recover that every fifty years on the year of Jubilee when all debts were cancelled. Some slaves would love their masters so much that they would become bondslaves to them, and this typeology is used for those that love God.

My example was to show that what we view as evil is sometimes not inline with what God views as evil. If you are defending slavery (indentured service is still slavery) then I must assume it is because you approve of it. So if you approve of slavery then you would not view the slave master as evil and your view is inline with God's but why? was it because you feel slavery is justified or because God said so?

 

[calidog]

One thing that I accept on faith is that people are generally good. One thing that bothers me about Christians is all the talk about how evil people are or how everyone is committing sins. Does this mean that Christians view people as generally evil?

People are not generally good and they are not generally evil.
We are prone to gravitate to evil because we are not generally good.
We need laws of the land to maintain lawfulness. The threat of punishment keeps us lawful otherwise we would all break the law.
This is not to say that we (christian and non) are not capable of doing good but we all tend to desire to break the laws (Gods and mans).
So, we all are not generally evil, though we may become entirely evil.

 

[ApollotheLizard]

Satan is the serpant that tricked them.

 

[tapero]

Is he not? If he had not tempted Adam and Eve into sinning, there would be no sin. Thus, no evil.

I'm not so sure of that.

What if Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree, but one of their children did, as even though Eve was created good, she did not say the scripture right, though she was close, but as time would go by the story passed down, already Eve has it wrong and also added things, I would think that just due to passing it down, that the message would change, and eventually one of their descendants would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

If Eve, the second human created got what God told Adam who must have told Eve wrong, then it's easy to see that had they not eaten the fruit that their children, grandchildren or any descendent could have, as the message would continue to be watered down.

Maybe not, maybe they would eat of the tree of life, but we don't know.

While scripture says God spoke about the trees to Adam, it is possible He spoke to both, but it's not written.

Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

.

And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely
die."

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

I think since man had free will, that perhaps for example one man might accidently kill another, and what it the other got angry (normal God given human emotion) then killed the man.

Just to note, anger is not a sin. God was angered many times in the OT, and Jesus (God) in turning over the tables, driving marketers out of the temple appears to be angry though it's not written.

But we also know from scripture that anger is not a sin.

In your anger do not sin

If man had not fallen, they would be good, but given human emotions, I think it's possible that one would have sinned.

So, I'm not sure on what you are saying here is so.

However, I do not believe God ever wanted us to sin, but he gave us free will and knew we could sin.

Blessings,
tapero