do Christians HAVE to have an opinion on every doctrinal issue?

kayanne · Jun 22, 2004

First, my brief background:
I was raised in a very liberal protestant church; the Bible was not highly regarded at all. Many people were supportive of abortion rights, homosexuality, divorce for any reason (oh my, the number of men who left their wives, then started bringing their new girlfriends to church was astounding). OK, you get the idea, I grew up in an "anything goes" church. I was saved at the age of 16 (through the witnessing of a friend), and was then somewhat mocked by people in my church for thinking I was now "saved."
I kind of "wandered" for many years, being saved, but not finding a church that seemed to take the Bible seriously. I'll fast forward about 15 years from that point:
I found an independent Bible church (pretty much like General Association of Regular Baptist Churches). My very first service there was wonderful! In fact, someone else who posted in the "why I left the rcc" thread had a post that sounded just like my experience. I heard SO much clear and bold Bible teaching that first week! The pastor was not afraid of preaching the Word!! (that first sermon was on the role of women in the church, and I remember thinking that the women in my childhood church would have all hurled hymnals at him for what he said!)
So, his preaching was a breath of fresh air to me. Having grown up in an "anything goes" church, I was longing to be in a church that really took a stand on things, that was really black and white, that would use the Bible seriously and say "this means SUCH AND SO".

OK, now fast forward another decade or so. The "black and white" that appealled to me so much 10 years ago, has started to seem arrogant and narrow. Like the TULIP points: for every scriptural argument FOR a tulip point, there is (imo) an equally valid scriptural argument AGAINST it. It becomes a no-win Scripture Ping-Pong game.

I'm at a point in my life where I have to say "I DON'T KNOW what I believe about eternal security, or election/predestination, or pre, mid, or post-trib" etc. Sometimes I get frustrated that God didn't make these things more clear (and please don't try to convince me that these issues are clear--great theologians through the centuries have debated many doctrinal issues). I'm at the point where I feel like it would be arrogant for me to say "I KNOW exactly what God means in these various doctrinal issues." HOW CAN I KNOW? No one seems to be able to agree on everything.

Is it ok for me to be a Christian, know that I'm saved, live for the Lord the best I can, and just totally not know/care/worry about how many points of TULIP I believe, or other confusing doctrinal issues?

Are there actually any churches who stand firm on a few "main things," but don't have a definite stand on secondary doctrinal issues? It is starting to really bother me when our pastor kind of "puts down" other denominations for their "unbiblical beliefs" (when those beliefs do have a biblical basis, but they just interpret the Bible differently).

seebs · Jun 22, 2004

I think it is important to be willing to admit that you don't know the answer to a question yet. And I don't think we all have to be theologians to best serve God.

Sword-In-Hand · Jun 22, 2004

Here is the plain and simple truth. We will KNOW nothing until we find out what Jesus has to say about it because He is the Truth. We can't know the Truth unless we know what He is telling us. Alot of those points you brought up are going to be forever debated, but I have the faith that Jesus knows the answer and He placed them in the Bible.

Be skeptical of people who use one verse to try and make an argument. I've had this problem when discussing Eternal Security. Seems like they always bring up one verse or chapter like Galatians 5, but I ask what of the 10 plus verses and chapters I know that support Eternal Security? Many people get one verse stuck in their head, but don't see what the whole scripture has to say about it.

In my opinion a church MUST be set in stone of how they believe in things like Eternal Security, water baptism, Predestination, free will, womens role in churches and just the simple fact of how to be saved. If churches don't have a firm foundation in these issues, then the congregation is going to be tossed all around with what they are supposed to believe. Issues like Rapture and heavenly gifts like speaking in tongues aren't something that should tear down a church. They way I look at tribulation, if we are taken up great, but if we aren't then God is still going to be God during those times. Either way, we win, because Christ does.

I hate to hear that your pastor has singled out some denominations. I don't like that because I'm going to be rejoicing in heaven with many people from many different denominations. People need to understand its not about a religion or a denomination, it's about a relationship with Christ. I'm sure there are churches who are firmly set in their beliefs. I attend a Southern Baptist church and we have a good foundation. Hope that ramble helped some

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jun 22, 2004

We can't know everything, and shouldn't claim to. Many of the problem today are actually caused by people holding random beliefs because they don't know the truth. It is far better to admit you don't know and leave it at that, than to try to randomly pick a belief for the sake of holding a position.

BT · Jun 22, 2004

Is it ok for me to be a Christian, know that I'm saved, live for the Lord the best I can, and just totally not know/care/worry about how many points of TULIP I believe, or other confusing doctrinal issues?

Yes it absolutely is ok.

Are there actually any churches who stand firm on a few "main things," but don't have a definite stand on secondary doctrinal issues? It is starting to really bother me when our pastor kind of "puts down" other denominations for their "unbiblical beliefs" (when those beliefs do have a biblical basis, but they just interpret the Bible differently).

Pastors need to have a stand on doctrinal issues. There will always be some in the congregation with questions. If a Pastor is going to lead the congregation, he has to know which directions to follow and which to avoid. This is the purpose of an ordination counsel.

For the rest of the people.... you needn't get involved in the debates.

Remember that first church that you went to? That Pastor probably didn't have a firm stand on doctrinal issues... and see where it got them?

Hope that helps.

Crazy Liz · Jun 22, 2004

Kayanne, I think what you are posting shows a lot of maturity and ability to reflect on your spritual journey and growth. Congratulations!

Too many Christians have the idea that faith is a matter of holding the correct thrological opinions. Guess what? A person can have great faith and still be mistaken about many things. Or a person can have all the correct opinions and no faith at all.

Faith has little to do with opinions and much to do with trust. Sometimes it takes more faith just to say, "I don't know about that doctrine, but I trust God."

Crazy Liz · Jun 22, 2004

Sword-In-Hand said:
In my opinion a church MUST be set in stone of how they believe in things like Eternal Security, water baptism, Predestination, free will, womens role in churches and just the simple fact of how to be saved. If churches don't have a firm foundation in these issues, then the congregation is going to be tossed all around with what they are supposed to believe. Issues like Rapture and heavenly gifts like speaking in tongues aren't something that should tear down a church. They way I look at tribulation, if we are taken up great, but if we aren't then God is still going to be God during those times. Either way, we win, because Christ does.

BT said:
Pastors need to have a stand on doctrinal issues. There will always be some in the congregation with questions. If a Pastor is going to lead the congregation, he has to know which directions to follow and which to avoid. This is the purpose of an ordination counsel.

I think it's OK for a pastor to say "I don't know" about some things, too. I remember one time when a pastoral candidate at a Baptist Church was asked his eschatological view WRT the Tribulation. His answer? "Jesus is coming again!" He made a lot of points with me that day.

I see SIH's point, but I probably would pick a different set of issues that a pastor should have an opinion about or be open-minded about. Some of the subjects he thinks should be "set in stone" I think don't need to be, doctrinally. For example, I attend a very conservative Friends church. It is highly influenced by a nearby seminary with fundamentalist leanings. Our church does not have women elders, although this is not held as a doctrinal position. Those who hold the traditional Quaker belief that women and men equally may minister have agreed to accommodate the fundies.

I'm personally not crazy about this arrangement, but I understand it. It is a policy our church has set by way of accommodation of practice, and not by way of doctrine.

BT · Jun 22, 2004

Crazy Liz said:
I think it's OK for a pastor to say "I don't know" about some things, too. I remember one time when a pastoral candidate at a Baptist Church was asked his eschatological view WRT the Tribulation. His answer? "Jesus is coming again!" He made a lot of points with me that day.

If I asked a pastor, "what must I do to be saved?" and he answered I don't know... is that ok

If I asked a pastor, "Are we saved by grace or by works, because Paul and James seem to disagree?" Is that cool if he doesn't know (or have an opinion or belief)

If I asked a pastor, "Why would Michael the archangel contend with the devil over the body of Moses?" and he said "I don't know" would that be ok?

If I asked a pastor, "Did God pick me for salvation from the beginning of the world, and select others for damnation from the beginning of the world?" and he said, "I don't know" would that be ok?

Point - A pastor doesn't and wouldn't and won't and couldn't know everything, but he must understand the basics and have a deeper knowledge of scriptures than perhaps your average church member. Pastor is an office from God. Paul set up specific qualifications for the office including "not a novice" 1 Timothy 3:6 "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. "

When I was first called to the ministry. I told my pastor, ok let's find me a church to run.... I wouldn't have been able to answer many questions that come up... would that have been ok?

The answer that your candidate gave is actually dead on....

I'm not arguing with you I'm just saying you can't be too loose with the office of pastor...

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jun 22, 2004

Can someone please clearly define Pastor? It is used only 1 (one) time in the entire Bible.

Frankie · Jun 22, 2004

kayanne said:
First, my brief background:
I was raised in a very liberal protestant church; the Bible was not highly regarded at all. Many people were supportive of abortion rights, homosexuality, divorce for any reason (oh my, the number of men who left their wives, then started bringing their new girlfriends to church was astounding). OK, you get the idea, I grew up in an "anything goes" church. I was saved at the age of 16 (through the witnessing of a friend), and was then somewhat mocked by people in my church for thinking I was now "saved."
I kind of "wandered" for many years, being saved, but not finding a church that seemed to take the Bible seriously. I'll fast forward about 15 years from that point:
I found an independent Bible church (pretty much like General Association of Regular Baptist Churches). My very first service there was wonderful! In fact, someone else who posted in the "why I left the rcc" thread had a post that sounded just like my experience. I heard SO much clear and bold Bible teaching that first week! The pastor was not afraid of preaching the Word!! (that first sermon was on the role of women in the church, and I remember thinking that the women in my childhood church would have all hurled hymnals at him for what he said!)
So, his preaching was a breath of fresh air to me. Having grown up in an "anything goes" church, I was longing to be in a church that really took a stand on things, that was really black and white, that would use the Bible seriously and say "this means SUCH AND SO".

OK, now fast forward another decade or so. The "black and white" that appealled to me so much 10 years ago, has started to seem arrogant and narrow. Like the TULIP points: for every scriptural argument FOR a tulip point, there is (imo) an equally valid scriptural argument AGAINST it. It becomes a no-win Scripture Ping-Pong game.

I'm at a point in my life where I have to say "I DON'T KNOW what I believe about eternal security, or election/predestination, or pre, mid, or post-trib" etc. Sometimes I get frustrated that God didn't make these things more clear (and please don't try to convince me that these issues are clear--great theologians through the centuries have debated many doctrinal issues). I'm at the point where I feel like it would be arrogant for me to say "I KNOW exactly what God means in these various doctrinal issues." HOW CAN I KNOW? No one seems to be able to agree on everything.

Is it ok for me to be a Christian, know that I'm saved, live for the Lord the best I can, and just totally not know/care/worry about how many points of TULIP I believe, or other confusing doctrinal issues?

Are there actually any churches who stand firm on a few "main things," but don't have a definite stand on secondary doctrinal issues? It is starting to really bother me when our pastor kind of "puts down" other denominations for their "unbiblical beliefs" (when those beliefs do have a biblical basis, but they just interpret the Bible differently).

kayanne, there are some things that I believe one must be absolutly firm on and other things that have no baring on your salvation so it is ok to not have a defined belief in.

The problem is that if you don't have at least some firm and set beliefs in certain issues, you make yourself easy prey for false teachings and non-Christian churches such as the JW, Oneness Pentacostals and the LDS church. It is important to know the Word of God, to have firm beliefs on the nature of God and some things that the Bible teaches....such as a litteral Heaven and Hell, that the Bible is the inspired Word of God that contains all we need to know for Salvation and that God is a trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and that the only way to Heaven is through Faith in Jesus, not works. If you are already in Christ.... it is not going to matter if you believe in a new earth or old earth creation, pre-trib, mid-trib or post trib rapture because if you are in Christ, you are going to be with Him in the end regardless of how that end comes about.

God Bless,
Frankie

SumTinWong · Jun 22, 2004

I don't think so but we should have the fundies down pat anyway. Who died for your sins, the atonement, etc... After that well, that is really what seperates most of us anyway, so I don't put my salvation in the same box as I do some of these other doctrines. To do so would mean that I know it all. What I can tell you is to study the various denoms and what they think that way if someone asks you will know why you have the joy you have.

Peace lady!

kayanne · Jun 22, 2004

BT said:
If I asked a pastor, "what must I do to be saved?" and he answered I don't know... is that ok

If I asked a pastor, "Are we saved by grace or by works, because Paul and James seem to disagree?" Is that cool if he doesn't know (or have an opinion or belief)

If I asked a pastor, "Why would Michael the archangel contend with the devil over the body of Moses?" and he said "I don't know" would that be ok?

If I asked a pastor, "Did God pick me for salvation from the beginning of the world, and select others for damnation from the beginning of the world?" and he said, "I don't know" would that be ok?

Point - A pastor doesn't and wouldn't and won't and couldn't know everything, but he must understand the basics and have a deeper knowledge of scriptures than perhaps your average church member. Pastor is an office from God. Paul set up specific qualifications for the office including "not a novice" 1 Timothy 3:6 "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. " ...

I'm not sure what you were thinking the "correct answers" to your questions above should be. The first two (imo) are not negotiable, the next one I'm not familiar with, and the last one I have my own opinion on, but I'd prefer a church that didn't stress the whole issue of election.
That last question is one of those areas, where a pastor in one church confidently (arrogantly?) preaches with complete assurance that he is correct; another preacher confidently (arrogantly?) preaches with complete assurance that he is correct. However, the two preaches have come to a completely opposite interpretation of the verses dealing with election. One believes that anyone can be saved; the other believes God has preselected certain individuals for salvation and others for damnation.

I'd rather be in a church where the pastor simply admitted that there is a lack of agreement on this issue, admit that there are different scripture verses that seem to support both sides, perhaps state his *personal* viewpoint, but not act like he absolutely knows 100% assuredly that his opinion is correct.

That's what I'm struggling with right now in my church--comments from the pulpit like "you know, we've got these preachers telling people they can lose their salvation, and really leading people astray with this unbiblical teaching...." Sometimes the pastor specifically mentions a particular denomination and what they teach that is "unbiblical," or a particular well-known evangelist or teacher (like Billy Graham or James Dobson) and tells why we need to avoid their "unbiblical teaching," etc.
I feel like I can't even invite guests of another denomination, because you never know which denom is going to be criticized for their "wrong beliefs."

I just wish he'd preach from the scriptures, tell us how to apply it to our lives, give us his interpretation, but leave other denominations out of it. Now, he doesn't do this ALL the time, just often enough that it bothers me. He truly is great at preaching in general--he is just very opinionated on some issues and not necessarily diplomatic in sharing his opinions!

BT · Jun 22, 2004

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
Can someone please clearly define Pastor? It is used only 1 (one) time in the entire Bible.

Pastor is the modern day term for Bishop as in 1 Timothy 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."

A bishop; literally, an overseer, an officer holding a general charge and superintendence in respect to the affairs of the church, with powers and duties adapted, in many respects, doubtless, to the peculiar circumstances and habits of the times. (Abbot New Testament Commentary)

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · Jun 22, 2004

Oh, I see. So what do you call the person that gives the lesson?

BT · Jun 22, 2004

kayanne said:
I'm not sure what you were thinking the "correct answers" to your questions above should be.

I wasn't looking for answers.. they were just examples...

I'd rather be in a church where the pastor simply admitted that there is a lack of agreement on this issue, admit that there are different scripture verses that seem to support both sides, perhaps state his *personal* viewpoint, but not act like he absolutely knows 100% assuredly that his opinion is correct.

That's what I'm struggling with right now in my church--comments from the pulpit like "you know, we've got these preachers telling people they can lose their salvation, and really leading people astray with this unbiblical teaching...." Sometimes the pastor specifically mentions a particular denomination and what they teach that is "unbiblical," or a particular well-known evangelist or teacher (like Billy Graham or James Dobson) and tells why we need to avoid their "unbiblical teaching," etc.
I feel like I can't even invite guests of another denomination, because you never know which denom is going to be criticized for their "wrong beliefs."

This is common for a Baptist church, and I practice that I heartily agree with. I do not follow the motto of CF "Uniting all Christians as one body." That is a decidedly New Evangelical motto which attempts to mold all "Christians" as (the RC's will love this) "All roads lead to Rome". The simple fact of the matter is that there are LOTS and LOTS of false teachers in the world. Your pastor is likely trying to help you discern between those who are true (Biblically) and those who are false.

It's hard to bring people sometimes into this kind of preaching, but I do it all the time. Afterwards if they are upset we talk about it, and determine whether or not the Pastor was wrong. If someone preaching "against" the scriptures... I wouldn't want to go there.

I just wish he'd preach from the scriptures, tell us how to apply it to our lives, give us his interpretation, but leave other denominations out of it. Now, he doesn't do this ALL the time, just often enough that it bothers me. He truly is great at preaching in general--he is just very opinionated on some issues and not necessarily diplomatic in sharing his opinions!

Mark 1:21-22
"And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes."

He's probably following that example.

Don't let it get to you sister. Talk to your pastor, if he is anything like mine, he will be highly approachable.

Bro. Gabriel · Jun 29, 2004

Sinai · Jun 29, 2004

kayanne said:
do Christians HAVE to have an opinion on every doctrinal issue?

The last time I checked the Bible's plan of salvation, it did not require a Christian to have an opinion on every conceivable doctrinal issue (much less on the inconceivable ones).

Having said that, I found that after Christ had changed my life, I found that I had a thirst to learn more about God's word. And that, in turn, led to a desire to know biblical truths generally described as doctrinal issues. Of course, some "doctrines" are not supported by scripture, some are contradicted by it, and then there are some where advocates of conflicting doctrines can each find scriptural support. In such cases, seek the Holy Spirit's guidance and remember that any particular scripture is not in a vacuum: consider both the context and what the other scriptures say. Consult the original languages and see what the range of meanings are for the words or phrases that are causing problems. Generally speaking, you can resolve what at first glance appears to be a conflict in the English translation.

May the Lord lead you in your quest.....and give you His guidance and His peace.....

eldermike · Jun 29, 2004

You can know many things and miss heaven by 18 inches. The highest court of it's day lost it's mind over a few words spoken by Stephen, and they stoned him to death. They knew God as doctrine, but the head is not the place to know God, it's in your heart, it's a dangerous 18 inch mistake.

So, a simple answer. If you know God in your heart then study and show yourself approved, in other words learn doctrine. But if you know God as doctrine then you might be missing something eternally important.

BronxBriar · Jun 30, 2004

Bro. Gabriel said:
Yes.

No.

kayanne · Jun 30, 2004

BronxBriar said:
No.

well i guess that settles that lol!!

do Christians HAVE to have an opinion on every doctrinal issue?

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