Do Christians acknowledge that God might not exist?

[alexiscurious]

Such as what, though? You're not making sense...give an example. What would God have to do in order for you to believe? There are many things mankind can't replicate. Spider's silk for instance. If the Bible were written on parchment made of spider silk, would you believe?

Man can create a book out of spider silk...that doesn't help.

I don't think you fully understood what I was saying. I said any evidence that cannot be copied / faked by mankind is sufficient enough for me. There is no aspect or any part of Christianity that cannot be replicated by another man-made religion. The collection of testimonies you call the Bible is completely worthless to me. Any religion can effortlessly produce their own scripture and get millions to follow it.

For example, a direct conversation with God is not something man can fake.

 

[oi_antz]

For example, a direct conversation with God is not something man can fake.

But it is something men can choose to not participate in, and then complain that it didn't happen. Go figure.

 

[katerinah1947]

Man can create a book out of spider silk...that doesn't help.

I don't think you fully understood what I was saying. I said any evidence that cannot be copied / faked by mankind is sufficient enough for me. There is no aspect or any part of Christianity that cannot be replicated by another man-made religion. The collection of testimonies you call the Bible is completely worthless to me. Any religion can effortlessly produce their own scripture and get millions to follow it.

For example, a direct conversation with God is not something man can fake.

Hi,
So I've had a direct conversation with God. Many a person in that book has, off course I am still alive.
Are you telling me that, since you can talk to me, and I have that, I somehow make a difference to you?
Consider then : http://www.christianforums.com/t7863896-54/
Please read posts 537, 538, and then on page 544 look at the last post. No, I was not intending ever to have to say that much.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

Man can create a book out of spider silk...that doesn't help.

I don't think you fully understood what I was saying. I said any evidence that cannot be copied / faked by mankind is sufficient enough for me. There is no aspect or any part of Christianity that cannot be replicated by another man-made religion. The collection of testimonies you call the Bible is completely worthless to me. Any religion can effortlessly produce their own scripture and get millions to follow it.

For example, a direct conversation with God is not something man can fake.

The mere fact that you would call the Bible a "collection of testimonies" only shows your complete and utter ignorance of what it actually contains. And you are still not making sense. What would you accept? You've already chosen not to hear the word of God, so even a direct conversation with Him would not be sufficient enough proof for you. You are here and posting on a Christian forum, so obviously, you are searching for something. We are more than willing to help you the best we can, but we can't do that if you're not willing to understand and would rather spout off your own thoughts to us.

 

[alexiscurious]

The mere fact that you would call the Bible a "collection of testimonies" only shows your complete and utter ignorance of what it actually contains. And you are still not making sense. What would you accept? You've already chosen not to hear the word of God, so even a direct conversation with Him would not be sufficient enough proof for you. You are here and posting on a Christian forum, so obviously, you are searching for something. We are more than willing to help you the best we can, but we can't do that if you're not willing to understand and would rather spout off your own thoughts to us.

I already told you, give me something that cannot be replicated by another man-made religion and I'll be on board.

 

[Joshua260]

No. The age of their testimony is the least of my concern.

And as we discovered, it is no reason to disbelieve a document written long ago.

I'll say it again: there are no compelling reasons to believe in those human witnesses. And I'm not going to give them special treatment over anyone else.

But why do you discriminate against them? You haven't provided any reason for doing so.

You aren't convinced of the testimony of Mohammed or Joseph Smith for the same reason.

On the contrary, I have reasons why I believe those faiths are false. But so far, you have not provided any good reason for not believing the writers of the New Testament.

I'm saying the evidence you claim came from God can just as easily come from man. What other religions have done is completely relevant. It shows me just what mankind is capable of, and how easily it is to deceive by the millions.

Ok. So you are saying that you want God to perform a miracle for you. Well he did that by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don't see how it could only relate to God. All it proves is that something that was timeless caused our existence.

Ok, so we agree that the Kalam Cosmological Argument proves that something timeless caused our existence. But it also shows that whatever caused this universe to come into existence is also not of this universe (immaterial), and also powerful (in order to cause this universe to come into existence), uncaused (because of the impossibility of an infinite regress), and also personal (because something had to decide to make the change and bring this universe into existence). So, don't all of those characteristics match those commonly attributed to God?

 

[alexiscurious]

Hi,
So I've had a direct conversation with God. Many a person in that book has, off course I am still alive.
Are you telling me that, since you can talk to me, and I have that, I somehow make a difference to you?
Consider then : http://www.christianforums.com/t7863896-54/
Please read posts 537, 538, and then on page 544 look at the last post. No, I was not intending ever to have to say that much.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

Wow. According to your posts, you seem to have had a truckload of supernatural experiences.

You said you talked to the virgin Mary. What did she have to say to you exactly?

 

[oi_antz]

I already told you, give me something that cannot be replicated by another man-made religion and I'll be on board.

Why is that necessary?

 

[alexiscurious]

On the contrary, I have reasons why I believe those faiths are false. But so far, you have not provided any good reason for not believing the writers of the New Testament.

A positive claim is an assertion that something exists.
A negative claim is an assertion that something does not exist.
The burden of proof is upon those who make a positive claim.

According to this, I don't need a reason to not believe them. Just like I don't need a reason to not believe in unicorns or UFO's. The onus is on the person making the positive claim to supply the evidence. If you consider a small group of human witnesses who saw something spectacular at a very brief moment in time to be a substantial amount of proof, then you would be obligated to believe in a whole bunch of bizarre and crazy things.

Ok, so we agree that the Kalam Cosmological Argument proves that something timeless caused our existence. But it also shows that whatever caused this universe to come into existence is also not of this universe (immaterial), and also powerful (in order to cause this universe to come into existence), uncaused (because of the impossibility of an infinite regress), and also personal (because something had to decide to make the change and bring this universe into existence). So, don't all of those characteristics match those commonly attributed to God?

Suddenly, this timeless cause now became personal? I think you jumped way too far on that one. Nothing in the argument you included makes me think that the cause had to make a conscious decision to bring the universe into existence.

 

[South Bound]

Are Christians willing to acknowledge that God might not exist? That you might be wrong?

Who believes someone they know doesn't exist?

If so, why do you insist on telling other people that they are following the wrong god if yours is just as much of an uncertainty as theirs is?

See Acts 4:12.

 

[alexiscurious]

But it is something men can choose to not participate in, and then complain that it didn't happen. Go figure.

You know what's funny? God is willing to have a direct conversation with me but not while I'm alive. He is completely against talking to me right now but for some odd reason he will have no problem having a chat with me right before he sends me to hell. I just find that amusing.

 

[alexiscurious]

Why is that necessary?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Joshua260]

A positive claim is an assertion that something exists.
A negative claim is an assertion that something does not exist.
The burden of proof is upon those who make a positive claim. .

A positive or negative claim is not just about whether or not something exists. If you had simply said that you were not convinced by the New Testament writers, that would have been different. But instead, you made the positive claim that the New Testament writers should not be believed, first because they wrote long ago (which we now see is irrelevant) and then second because they were "religious fanatics" (which we also now see is irrelevant). Since you have not provided a reason yet, I take it that you really have no reason not to believe them, you just simply have not been convinced. Isn't that a better description of your position?

Suddenly, this timeless cause now became personal? I think you jumped way too far on that one. Nothing in the argument you included makes me think that the cause had to make a conscious decision to bring the universe into existence.

I don't think so. If you think about it, how could the cause exist without the effect (the universe)? It seems that the only way out of this strange dilemma is if the cause of the universe's beginning is a personal agent who freely chose to create the universe in time. ...I know, it was hard for me to get that myself for some time.

 

[alexiscurious]

A positive or negative claim is not just about whether or not something exists. If you had simply said that you were not convinced by the New Testament writers, that would have been different. But instead, you made the positive claim that the New Testament writers should not be believed, first because they wrote long ago (which we now see is irrelevant) and then second because they were "religious fanatics" (which we also now see is irrelevant). Since you have not provided a reason yet, I take it that you really have no reason not to believe them, you just simply have not been convinced. Isn't that a better description of your position?

No. You are twisting my words and you have a terrible understanding of where my position is. I never said that age or fanaticism had anything to do with it. I'll leave it up to the other people of this thread to actually read what I said.

I don't think so. If you think about it, how could the cause exist without the effect (the universe)? It seems that the only way out of this strange dilemma is if the cause of the universe's beginning is a personal agent who freely chose to create the universe in time. ...I know, it was hard for me to get that myself for some time.

There are plenty of causes and effects that happen without conscious decision. I don't agree with the new argument that you are now trying to insert into the old one.

 

[oi_antz]

He is completely against talking to me right now

Are you sure this is a fact? It is different from what He has promised and what Christians experience. Are you aware that you are saying Jesus has not kept His promise? If so, have you fully considered whether you are prepared to stick with this opinion even when you are to face Him one last time? (I recognise you are of atheist beliefs, which I imagine makes it difficult for you to consider this as a realistic situation - but I think you should consider it seriously when answering this question).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Do you think this would be satisfied if you were able to have a direct conversation with Him?

 

[alexiscurious]

Here a few of the reasons why I believe the Bible is the Word of God:

1. Thematic unity.
2. Fulfilled prophecy.
3. Archaeological and historical accuracy.
4. Its survivability and popularity.
5. Its enormous impact upon individuals and societies.
6. Its correspondence to reality/explanatory power.
7. The uniqueness of its redemption message.

And so on. As you can see, there is nothing circular in my reasoning here. None of these points standing alone (except maybe point #2) is a knock-out punch in favour of the divine nature of Scripture. But taken together, the cumulative weight of these points makes my belief quite reasonable.

Couldn't all these elements still be found in a man-made religion?

 

[katerinah1947]

Wow. According to your posts, you seem to have had a truckload of supernatural experiences.

You said you talked to the virgin Mary. What did she have to say to you exactly?

Hi,
Although I am willing to answer any and all of your questions. Philosophers just seem to want to ask more and more questions and never actually find the reality of anything.....It seems to me.
Without the situation I was involved in and what she was doing, I'm not sure those words out of context will have any purpose nor meaning to you, but I could be wrong. So She said: "I am the spouse of The Holy Spirit." We then had a nice chit chat.
That if you are interested is not the first time nor the last time I have interfaced with her. One of my favorites is for another woman, God is having me work with. There she and Jesus are, in the daytime while I am talking to her and this woman is sitting across from me. So of course I stop. I say nothing but look. "A door. Jesus and Mary. Their feelings for you. The feelings of God The Father" I said none of this. As I am looking at all of this. I start to talk. "Jesus and Mary. Mary is in front of Jesus." I left out parts of the door. There is and was a reason to do that. "Their feelings for you. God The Father's feelings for you. Where is The Holy Spirit" Yes, where is He? She got really upset. Apparently she has an issue with Him. I told her I don't know. I told her, and she saw my consternation as to why when I totally expect to see Him The Holy Spirit and do not, that I do not understand where He is.
That night I found out. I called her. This would happen, but the point to you, is there were no words this time. I just knew what she was feeling for this woman, as I couid see and feel those emotions. Not all communications from Mary nor God are verbal.
One day both God The Father and Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are conversing with me, but again for the benefit of someone else. Even when Mary talked to me, that chit chat would end up with me doing what Mary wanted me to do for a girl.
Someone thinking only earth changing words of doom and calamity or end of the world types of things asked me over and over. What did God The Father say to you. One day I answered him. I first told him of the situation:
"I had just come back from a calling by Mary. There I saw The Essence of God and Jesus came inside of me revealing to me totally who He is at His core personality. I saw Mary there also. Well when I got back from that calling, within a week or so, I told God that I am quitting doing something unless He proves to me in no ambigous way that it is He who is in back of these things and noone or nothing else. The day came, and I had no idea this was going to happen. In the end God the Father had me tell this boy something. I added a few words and changed some things as I had already frightened this boy out of his wits, by telling him, (out of the blue for him), the day the month and the year of a very significant event in his life. He even took a step back when I said that, those words from The Holy Spirit, the second time He, The Holy Spiirt gave me those words. He acted as though I had punched him with a right-cross in the chin. So, there is no way, I figured that I could tell him that Jesus and The Father were talking to me, and I was giving him words from Them and not me anymore. So I said this, and it is changed a little. "For what you have been through. The next step for you, is to join the Roman Catholic Church as they have the most answers for what you have been through" The event he had been though was one day, Jesus had appeared to him personally. It is also the day that his mother died. It is complicated. I asked him what he knew of God from that experience and his answer was anything but spot on. I then asked for an outrageous thing in my mind from God. ~I want the day when he saw Jesus.~ A date came through. I felt a little wrong for expecting this from God and I did not say. I thought again and in faith..... The same day came through, the same year came through the same month came through only my lips and my mouth and my vocal cords said those words to him, this time. Okay right-cross. There is lots more to this, and there is a reason beyond your questions right now. Yet, the earth shattering thing God The Father wanted the boy to know and do, was to go to the Catholic Church for him, as they have the most answers for what he has been through.
Sure, I totally knew more. I totally knew God would assign different faith trips to different people as they navigate life. I took that in, that God The Father never ever said, nor I'm sure Jesus then also, that the only road and the only way to God is through The Roman Catholic Church. He never said that. He just said for him, his next step is to see them. Two weeks of more later, he is asked by his boss in a message: "That person called, who told you the day your mother died. That person wants to know: What did I say that night? What did I tell you?" Whether or not the boy does what God asks him to do, is up to him.
There is more and more, until the issue was done. God The Father, The Father of Jesus, Jesus and the One Who Is Sent The Holy Spirit, and with The Virgin Mary, all of them were in on something. And that is the reason, I had so many of these things. I was to be asked a question. I was being prepared to understand that question, however is that not very much off the point. Did you not really just imply that someone living, who had direct contact with God, would interest you for some reason?
I have, do and still do, and it is always when I or someone else has a need, not a want, not a want, but rather a need and I am the tool chosen to help that person. Sometimes it is primarily for me.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[alexiscurious]

Are you sure this is a fact? It is different from what He has promised and what Christians experience. Are you aware that you are saying Jesus has not kept His promise? If so, have you fully considered whether you are prepared to stick with this opinion even when you are to face Him one last time? (I recognise you are of atheist beliefs, which I imagine makes it difficult for you to consider this as a realistic situation - but I think you should consider it seriously when answering this question).

Yawn. I don't consider prayer as a conversation with God if that is what you mean by 'what Christians experience'. I don't understand what opinion you are referring to in your third question.

Do you think this would be satisfied if you were able to have a direct conversation with Him?

Sure, if he were approachable and available to everyone that wanted to talk to him then there would be very little debate about his existence.

 

[oi_antz]

Yawn. I don't consider prayer as a conversation with God if that is what you mean by 'what Christians experience'.

.. Why have you said this then:

"He is completely against talking to me right now"

.. when in actual fact you are now saying that you will not consider having a conversation with Him?

I don't understand what opinion you are referring to in your third question.

This one:

"He is completely against talking to me right now"

Sure, if he were approachable and available to everyone that wanted to talk to him then there would be very little debate about his existence.

I really don't know why I need to remind you that not everyone does want to approach and talk to Him. What do you like to say about that?

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

I already told you, give me something that cannot be replicated by another man-made religion and I'll be on board.

You could do that with historical accuracy alone. Next?