Do Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians lack discernment?

JimB · Mar 4, 2010

lismore said:
I dont know about Orthodox, but when the Catholics went against the pope and the bishops it was called the Reformation.

If you study the RCC at the time of the Reformation and compare it to the Charismatic church today you will see some similarities. I predict a rise in house fellowships and informal groups as spirit filled believers move back to the basics.

*****

You know, Lis, I think you have a point.

Or, I think you will see more P/C churches and/or believers distancing themselves from the nuttiness. We are already seeing this in our community—believers who want the power without the unnecessary weirdness.

Our church is growing, in part, from a defection of ex-Charismatics who are sick of all the baggage that being a modern Charismatic insists on dragging along with it—weary of having to explain to their friends why they are part of something that endorses those never-ending televangelist scandals, the junk they hear on “Christian” TV and their celebrities constant appeals for money, “holy” laughter, roaring at the devil, falling down (being “slain&#8221 when prayed for, clogging (dancing) in the Spirit, those strange clichés catch phrases (e.g., seed faith, Joshua generation, Jezebel spirit, Satan’s bait, purging of the remnant, attack of the enemy, etc., ad infinitum), etc. etc. etc.

Some Charismatics just want to be normal people—naturally supernatural—without all the baggage that being “Pentecostal” or “Charismatic” seems to require them to drag along.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

AudioArtist · Mar 4, 2010

I never understand why being being slain in the spirit is on that list, though. It's an unfortunate term of course, but to dismiss something because someone was unable to stand in God's presence while it happened seems a bit strange to me.

Maybe you've seen it turned into a performance or something to be sought out on its own, which I can understand you'd be wary of. It's just worrying when people say, 'we want to be naturally supernatural' (which I wholeheartedly agree with) and then go on to say, 'so if someone falls down while praying or being prayed for, or laughs for joy uncontrollably, or sobs a bit too much, or x or y - then that's out.'

I think I'm just lucky in that I've never seen this stuff abused or go 'out of control'. I've prayed for someone with someone else who felt that that person needed joy - though the person being prayed for didn't know she had had that word of knowledge. Pretty much as soon as we laid hands on him he began laughing. He told us it was a real release, and that he hadn't felt happy or joyful in a long time. Or there was a time when a friend was going through serious depression and went forward for prayer and felt so overpowered by God's love that she fell to the ground... and came out with a victory over that particular issue. I mean there's lots of little examples I can think of where people's bodies react to God's power in certain ways, and I can't see how they contradict scripture in any way.

But we'll end up going in circles with this one...

Alpine · Mar 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
Generally speaking, not anymore or any less than christians who are not charismatic or Pentecostal, IMHO.

I disagree. I think that non Pentecostals/charismatics tend to be extremely careful, partly why they aren't charismatic. They are either afraid or ignorant of the gifts of the Spirit.

Afraid that the gifts might be false so they do not seek them and ignorant in that they do not know or understand the gifts.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

lismore said:
I dont know about Orthodox, but when the Catholics went against the pope and the bishops it was called the Reformation.

And because they protested they were excommunicated from the Church and thus became Protestants. In others words, they were kicked out.

If you study the RCC at the time of the Reformation and compare it to the Charismatic church today you will see some similarities. I predict a rise in house fellowships and informal groups as spirit filled believers move back to the basics.

Of coarse, Eccl. 1:9-10.

Though if you hadn't noticed my first post in this thread, here, I'll just paste it here for you.
"Generally speaking, not anymore or any less than christians who are not charismatic or Pentecostal, IMHO."
I was answering the OP question on whether charismatic or Pentecostal people lack discerment. So, the reason for my reply to you was to point out that what I said in my first post is true.

The bible says when we come together 'everyone has' something that 'must' be done for the edification of the body. I repeat 'everyone has', 'must be done'.

"must", as in if you don't you are excommunicated? you are tarred and feathered? What do you mean by must? Is this one of those NT laws we all must obey or else?

1 Corinthians 14:26 NIV
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Yes, all of these must be done, not every single one of you must do at least one of these things or else.

But that's fine, the charismatic church I go to is very, very interactive.

One body, many parts. If you dont exercise all the parts the body will not be strong.

Some of the most awesome and wonderful times I have ever had at a meeting was when we met informally at the AOG church, everyone shared a word of encouragement, a song, a scripture. It was amazing how God spoke through this!

No disrespect to anyone, but I dont believe sitting listening to one individual week in, week out, over and over again is particularly healthy spiritually speaking.

Every one of us is a Child of God and can hear from God. We all have soemthing to share with one another. We dont need priests, we are all a royal priesthood, a chosen people

And then there's prayer meetings, of course some here think those should be stopped and done away with. They're just one of those charismatic practises that only charismatics do and serve no purpose but to...well, I never did understand the reasoning behind why they are bad and should be stopped.

JimB · Mar 4, 2010

AudioArtist said:
I never understand why being being slain in the spirit is on that list, though. It's an unfortunate term of course, but to dismiss something because someone was unable to stand in God's presence while it happened seems a bit strange to me.

Maybe you've seen it turned into a performance or something to be sought out on its own, which I can understand you'd be wary of. It's just worrying when people say, 'we want to be naturally supernatural' (which I wholeheartedly agree with) and then go on to say, 'so if someone falls down while praying or being prayed for, or laughs for joy uncontrollably, or sobs a bit too much, or x or y - then that's out.'

I think I'm just lucky in that I've never seen this stuff abused or go 'out of control'. I've prayed for someone with someone else who felt that that person needed joy - though the person being prayed for didn't know she had had that word of knowledge. Pretty much as soon as we laid hands on him he began laughing. He told us it was a real release, and that he hadn't felt happy or joyful in a long time. Or there was a time when a friend was going through serious depression and went forward for prayer and felt so overpowered by God's love that she fell to the ground... and came out with a victory over that particular issue. I mean there's lots of little examples I can think of where people's bodies react to God's power in certain ways, and I can't see how they contradict scripture in any way.

But we'll end up going in circles with this one...

I know people do fall (a.k.a., are slain) under the power of God. It has happened to me--but only twice in 46 years. It is a biblical, albeit rare, phenomenon. But to dutifully fall monkey-see-monkey-do fashion in a prayer line just because a preacher touches your forehead only diminishes the value of the genuine.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

Alpine said:
I disagree. I think that non Pentecostals/charismatics tend to be extremely careful, partly why they aren't charismatic. They are either afraid or ignorant of the gifts of the Spirit.

Afraid that the gifts might be false so they do not seek them and ignorant in that they do not know or understand the gifts.

Well, you can disagree with that if you want but I grew up Catholic and we were told what to believe. Our own discernment was against the teaching of the church. Well, I kinda take that back, we were to discern correctly the major teachings of the church, no if ands or butts.

They often would quote this verse that supposedly proved that we were not to discern or interpret anything by ourselves.

2 Peter 1:20-21, Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation. For prophecy never had its own origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Thus we don't interpret or discern scripture for ourselves but listen, believe, and obey the Church. The Orthodox believe and teach this as well.

AudioArtist · Mar 4, 2010

JimB said:
I know people do fall (a.k.a., are slain) under the power of God. It has happened to me--but only twice in 46 years. It is a biblical, albeit rare, phenomenon. But to dutifully fall monkey-see-monkey-do fashion in a prayer line just because a preacher touches your forehead only diminishes the value of the genuine.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

That is true.

And I was mistaken - I have experienced the misuse of this stuff. The infamous 'pushing'. The lad was pretty young and probably meant well, but it was still mighty irritating to have someone push on your head while saying 'let go and let God'. More like let go and let me!

But it's happened to me once for real, too. Us humans are silly creatures - ruining what could otherwise be so precious, either by being over cautious or over zealous for the wrong things.

bobznew · Mar 4, 2010

Alpine said:
I disagree. I think that non Pentecostals/charismatics tend to be extremely careful, partly why they aren't charismatic. They are either afraid or ignorant of the gifts of the Spirit.

Afraid that the gifts might be false so they do not seek them and ignorant in that they do not know or understand the gifts.

BTW, this precisely describes the type of Christian I was for over 10 years. Being raised Southern Baptist, I had an automatic aversion to anything charismatic, and assumed it was out of order, and possibly of the devil.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

Alpine said:
Afraid that the gifts might be false so they do not seek them and ignorant in that they do not know or understand the gifts.

Oh and all of us misguided charismatics are like that? Look, I didn't say no charismatic has a problem with discerment just like I'm not saying all Catholics don't discern anything.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

AudioArtist said:
That is true.

And I was mistaken - I have experienced the misuse of this stuff. The infamous 'pushing'. The lad was pretty young and probably meant well, but it was still mighty irritating to have someone push on your head while saying 'let go and let God'. More like let go and let me!

But it's happened to me once for real, too. Us humans are silly creatures - ruining what could otherwise be so precious, either by being over cautious or over zealous for the wrong things.

How did slain in the Spirit get into this discussion?

I was slain in the Spirit myself and it is real and true. And it was very precious to me because I specifically asked God for this just so that I knew whether this was from him or not, it happend and I was glad.

JimB · Mar 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
How did slain in the Spirit get into this discussion?

I was slain in the Spirit myself and it is real and true. And it was very precious to me because I specifically asked God for this just so that I knew whether this was from him or not, it happend and I was glad.

Actually, the term slain in the Spirit is not a biblical phrase. It is spooky term, IMO.

Some falling under the power of, or in the presence of God for is genuine (though, if the Bible is any indication, it is rare) but a lot of it is monkey-see-monkey-do. This I know from interviewing people it has happened to who frankly admitted they fell because it appeared that it was expected of them. Only a few told me it was genuine.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

JimB said:
Actually, the term “slain in the Spirit” is not a biblical phrase. It is spooky term, IMO.

I agree, it is spooky sounding, I never liked the term myself and I dont know many people who do like it. I wonder why then so many people call it that then? Ahhh, that's one of those questions you can ponder all day on and come up with several different answers and still not know why.

Some falling under the power of, or in the presence of God for is genuine (though, if the Bible is any indication, it is rare) but a lot of it is monkey-see-monkey-do. This I know from interviewing people it has happened to who frankly admitted they “fell” because it appeared that it was expected of them. Only a few told me it was genuine.

Interesting, mainly because I'm not a monkey-see-monkey-do type person. I can sometimes feel self conscious though and wonder what people are thinking of when they see me not playing along.

No, when the "falling under the power of" happend to me it was somewhat unexpected. I was talking to the dude and he tapped me on the forehead when I was in mid sentence and I went down like a bag of fruit.

banish'd · Mar 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
Oh and all of us misguided charismatics are like that? Look, I didn't say no charismatic has a problem with discerment just like I'm not saying all Catholics don't discern anything.

It seems like discernment is a long process? I started worshiping with the Charismatics during 1967, and if I remember correctly, Second Vatican Council closed a couple of years before that during 1965. However, we Catholics didn't know anything about Charismatic Renewal being authorized until 1974.

The result is that I have received a new anointing, or maybe a greater anointing several times since 1967. I backslide for a while and always return to a more seasoned anointing. This greater anointing seems to be a purification where this bible verse stands out:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" (John 15:25-27)

No more crazy stuff! During my worship the Spirit of truth is testifying of Jesus Christ through me. When I worship I express myself to God openly by offering my body as an instrument of praise. Usually by standing, clapping, kneeling or stretching my hands toward heaven. I am simply expressing what I feel in my heart, and it has proceedeth from the Father.

At this stage during my seasoned walk with God I am comfortable with the Vineyard Charismatic Church.

Alpine · Mar 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
Well, you can disagree with that if you want but I grew up Catholic and we were told what to believe. Our own discernment was against the teaching of the church. Well, I kinda take that back, we were to discern correctly the major teachings of the church, no if ands or butts.

They often would quote this verse that supposedly proved that we were not to discern or interpret anything by ourselves.

2 Peter 1:20-21, Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation. For prophecy never had its own origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Thus we don't interpret or discern scripture for ourselves but listen, believe, and obey the Church. The Orthodox believe and teach this as well.

Neph, I was thinking of protestants when I made my comments. Wasn't really thinking about Catholics/Orthodox who tend to go along with what the church teaches.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

Alpine said:
Neph, I was thinking of protestants when I made my comments. Wasn't really thinking about Catholics/Orthodox who tend to go along with what the church teaches.

Oh, ok, but aren't Catholics and the Orthodox christians too? I know you believe they are so why are you leaving them out of the equation? I know in America the Proestants are the largest group but worldwide I would say Catholics and the Orthodox are the largest group.

Either way, I now understand where you're coming from, I just don't think it's right to discount a huge group of christians who need to discern correctly just as much as Protestants do.

nephilimiyr · Mar 4, 2010

banish'd said:
It seems like discernment is a long process? I started worshiping with the Charismatics during 1967, and if I remember correctly, Second Vatican Council closed a couple of years before that during 1965. However, we Catholics didn't know anything about Charismatic Renewal being authorized until 1974.

The result is that I have received a new anointing, or maybe a greater anointing several times since 1967. I backslide for a while and always return to a more seasoned anointing. This greater anointing seems to be a purification where this bible verse stands out:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" (John 15:25-27)

No more crazy stuff! During my worship the Spirit of truth is testifying of Jesus Christ through me. When I worship I express myself to God openly by offering my body as an instrument of praise. Usually by standing, clapping, kneeling or stretching my hands toward heaven. I am simply expressing what I feel in my heart, and it has proceedeth from the Father.

At this stage during my seasoned walk with God I am comfortable with the Vineyard Charismatic Church.

Nice post, thanks. So you're a Catholic charismatic? I don't think your story is too different from most people and it sounds you enjoy the freedom in worship that God has given you. That's what it is all about, amen?

banish'd · Mar 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
Nice post, thanks. So you're a Catholic charismatic? I don't think your story is too different from most people and it sounds you enjoy the freedom in worship that God has given you. That's what it is all about, amen?

Jesus wants us to ask for the Holy Spirit, so occasionally have the guys next to you lay their hand on you. We can ask for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the first time, or for a fresh infilling. In Acts 2 and 4, the Holy Spirit fell on the same people twice.

The old anointing that I had 21 years ago when the Catholics excommunicated me, has been replaced with a fresh infilling that is more Protestant in nature.

The Catholic infilling was somehow linked to Jesus being present in the Eucharist. I am no longer in communion with the Pope and United Bishops, so that infilling is weakened. However, the Diocese of Oakland California has Catholic Charismatic Worship during weekday evenings, and I still worship with those guys once or twice a year. Just friendship, that's all.

I forgot to mention that my wife is also a Charismatic, and we minister to one another all the time. Quite often, in fact.

KingZzub · Mar 5, 2010

Alpine said:
I disagree. I think that non Pentecostals/charismatics tend to be extremely careful, partly why they aren't charismatic. They are either afraid or ignorant of the gifts of the Spirit.

Afraid that the gifts might be false so they do not seek them and ignorant in that they do not know or understand the gifts.

And why would you say that is not lacking discernment?
If you have a church where the sick are not being healed, people are not getting free, words of knowledge are not flowing and prophetic encouragement is not being given, then the people in that church have utterly failed to discern the most important spirit in the Bible: THE HOLY SPIRIT.

That is the worst form of lack of discernment.

irenemcg · Mar 5, 2010

In answer to the question posed as to whether Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians lack discernment I would say yes in some cases they do but there are those who have good discernment

Nobody can lump a broad spectrum of people within the Pentecostal/ Charismatic community together and say they lack discernment. There are those within this broad spectrum that in some ways lack discernment - a holy discernment comes from above.

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment,
Php 1:10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,
Php 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

Discernment from above does not make people afraid of the Holy Spirit, rather it makes you open to the Spirit, but also comes with the wisdom to discern the spirits as to whether they are of God or not. If they are of God Jesus will be exalted, if they are not man will be exalted. Now catch what I am saying here there are many men and women prominent in Christian leadership and believers look up to them. God may have given them powerful ministries and I not criticizing any of them, but so often peple will follow leaders rather than look to the source.

Yet we have seen leaders fall and we may ask why? Could it be that the exaltation of men has made them puffed up and set them upon a slippery path.

If anyone keeps their focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and hears His voice and follows Him they will not receive counterfeits. We should be totally open to the Holy Spirit and allow Him to work witihin us empowering us for service. A real knowledge of Christ, truly knowing Him will help us to discern what is right

Spiritual immaturity causes believers across the broad spectrum to lack discernment.

.Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
Heb 5:13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The question we have to ask ourselves is are we ready for solid food- to move on to real maturty and with the help of the Holy Spirit discerning the right way to move forward.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We need to spend time in the Word. The word and the Spirit need to go hand in hand.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

Brother-Ruben · Mar 5, 2010

Haha! I was gonna' object with a "That is a VERY general question" when I saw "generally speaking that is." =P

Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians generally(very generally...I mean I almost feel judgemental) lack discernment - in the way I assume you mean it - because...

For the most part, Charismatics are [Soli Deo Gloria (Glory to God alone)] and don't have the least bit of interest in theology.QUOTE]

...or sound doctrine, for that matter! Mind you, I'm attacking the stereotype here. Throngs of our youth are saved upon hearing a watered-down gospel, through a repeated prayer, told that the deal is done,(they are saved) and...well that's it really. "The deal is done." No calling from there on, save giving.

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Do Charismatic/Pentecostal Christians lack discernment?

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