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Who were before of old ordained to this condemnation ! Proverbs 16(4): The Lord hath made all things , yea even the wicked for the day of evil ! Isaiah 45(7): I Make Peace And create evil , I the Lord do all these things ! Col 1(17): He is before all things , and by him all things consist !Simple question
Your point John?Who were before of old ordained to this condemnation ! Proverbs 16(4): The Lord hath made all things , yea even the wicked for the day of evil ! Isaiah 45(7): I Make Peace And create evil , I the Lord do all these things ! Col 1(17): He is before all things , and by him all things consist !
What makes you the lucky one God did not pass over?Not quite.
Calvinists believe freewill is in bondage to the sinful nature and that God is sovereign over our will.
We believe God intervenes in the lives of the elect and passes over the reprobate to leave them the punishment they rightly deserve.
Who were before of old ordained to this condemnation ! Proverbs 16(4): The Lord hath made all things , yea even the wicked for the day of evil ! Isaiah 45(7): I Make Peace And create evil , I the Lord do all these things ! Col 1(17): He is before all things , and by him all things consist !Simple question
Romans 9(11-22)As much as predestination is scriptural, the funniest thing is seeing humans trying to actually explain it. Would you like to fall into a Black Hole as well? Contemplate the Trinity? Get in a time machine and kill your grandfather? Or __insert paradox here_.
Even funnier is actually making it a central tenet of one's faith. It's one thing to believe it. Another to actually enshrine it!
Who were before of old ordained to this condemnation ! Proverbs 16(4): The Lord hath made all things , yea even the wicked for the day of evil ! Isaiah 45(7): I Make Peace And create evil , I the Lord do all these things ! Col 1(17): He is before all things , and by him all things consist !
Romans 9(11-22)
Watch out straykat, that phrasing is a little over the top. Mind the rules, just saying...You can quote the Lord all day. I wouldn't ignore or deny any of it. My only point is WE are not the Lord. This stance is useless for a Christian, from a practical day-to-day point of view.
I appreciate your response. Based on my discussions with a pretty hard-core reformed believer, a Calvinist in all respects, and based on some of the writings of Calvin himself, and based on the teachings of contemporary reformed theologians such as Piper, RC Spraul, etc, I have come to understand their theology moderately well. I myself also came from that theological tradition.I would like to chime in even though that was not intended for me. No! Absolutely not! Any other answer is blasphemous.
Agreed.
Yes we do.
The issue I have with both your view and Calvinist theology is the idea of monergism. And I have heard from some reformed believers that one of their issues with synergism is that they believe that if they accept this to be the truth, then they will forfeit the fullness of God's glory and attribute some of it to man. This could not be further from the truth!
I'm sorry, reading this I feel like Job telling his friends, 'who doesn't know this'? Who in Christendom would disagree with that?
We must bear fruit, our hearts must surrender to the will of God, there is a choice, a time of decision and that will decide our fate. Still it is by grace alone, faith alone and the authority of Scripture alone, because that's the witness of Christ and the Apostles. We cannot abandon the responsibility of the sinner to repent and receive the gospel, that option is simply not available.
First of all, pardon me for butting in, I realize this isn't meant for me. Secondly, there is nothing in Calvinism that says God knew before the foundation of the world that everyone who will be saved is predetermined. It's been argued by some Calvinists based on the book of life have the names of everyone who will be saved. But Jesus said something about blotting out certain names. What I think happens is that every soul who comes into the world has his or her name in the book of life. If they, for whatever reason, become a child of perdition, their name is blotted out.
At any rate, that's my take on it. Maybe I'm not a very good Calvinist but that's the Scriptures as I understand them.
Grace and peace,
Mark
Watch out straykat, that phrasing is a little over the top. Mind the rules, just saying...
I must admit, sometimes Calvinists drive me up the wall. Perhaps I'm not a very good Calvinist, by the grace of God I am what I am. I still identify with Calvinist theology very strongly even though I'm not much for keeping up with the herd that is mainstream Calvinism.I appreciate your response. Based on my discussions with a pretty hard-core reformed believer, a Calvinist in all respects, and based on some of the writings of Calvin himself, and based on the teachings of contemporary reformed theologians such as Piper, RC Spraul, etc, I have come to understand their theology moderately well. I myself also came from that theological tradition.
I am glad that you are not with them on the things I have refuted.
You know, i asked you this simple question more than once and never got an answer.Who were before of old ordained to this condemnation ! Proverbs 16(4): The Lord hath made all things , yea even the wicked for the day of evil ! Isaiah 45(7): I Make Peace And create evil , I the Lord do all these things ! Col 1(17): He is before all things , and by him all things consist !
✌Your point John?
I was with you until you said that salvation is monergistic.
Now, for you to say that what distinguishes you from Calvinists is simply that you say salvation was according to God's revealed will rather than His hidden will, I cannot understand how this is relevant.
This discussion is centered on the disputation of whether or not God wills man to sin. What is your answer to this question?
With regards to salvation, all I can gather from what you said is this: God saves us by His grace. Okay, Amen to that. That's always been true. No one disputes this.
For you to say that God ordains our salvation, willing it, you are not saying something that contradicts Calvinists. They say this too, as far as I understand.
The issue I have with both your view and Calvinist theology is the idea of monergism. And I have heard from some reformed believers that one of their issues with synergism is that they believe that if they accept this to be the truth, then they will forfeit the fullness of God's glory and attribute some of it to man. This could not be further from the truth!
Who convicts us of our sin? The Holy Spirit. Who repents? Not the Holy Spirit, but man. How is a man capable of repenting? Through God's grace if that man desire to repent. Does his repentance entitle him to salvation? Of course not. Why not? Salvation is not earned, since it is by grace through faith. Thus, let the sinner acknowledge his sin by the grace of God. Let the sinner repent by the grace of God. Let the sinner have faith in Jesus Christ by the grace of God. Let him live righteously by the grace of God. Let the him be saved by the grace of God. But do not deprive him of his free will and do not say that he had nothing to do with his own salvation. Or else, what sense does it make for God to issue commandments, or for the Apostles to urge men to repent and believe and save themselves (Read St Peter's sermon in Acts 2)?
We never attribute a man's salvation to his own works or will, for how can man save himself? But if God is the Savior and the Redeemer and He offers man salvation and eternal life in Christ Jesus, we speak piously if we say that man is capable of repentance, faith, and righteous works. We speak piously if we say that these things are only possible with God's grace. And we speak piously and truthfully if we say that if these things are so, then we cannot assert that salvation is monergistic but rather synergistic.
If salvation were monergistic, then God is unjust and unrighteous, since He saves some and condemns others according to His arbitrary will, regarding nothing to be of any import on the part of His creation. And if this is the case, then all men everywhere ought to cry out with indignation to God and say, "Why, if you have deemed us all as sinners worthy of hell, unrighteous and ungodly--why did you not will for us all to be saved? For, if in truth, you are no respector of persons, then you have acted contrary to your nature by arbitrarily choosing to save others and not willing that we be saved also!"
Election is not according to God's hidden will, but revealed in Jesus. God chooses us in Jesus. Our salvation is not a matter of God sovereignly choosing is and isn't saved, but God choosing us in His grace.
This is fundamentally different. In the Calvinist system, God picks some to be saved, and thus there are some not chosen for salvation. That is not the Lutheran position--God does not look past, overlook, or choose anyone not to be saved--Christ died for everyone, and God's will and desire is that everyone be saved.
The point isn't that God says only some can be saved.
The point is that God is the One who comes to us to save us in Jesus; and He does this for the whole world.
Of course God doesn't will for man to sin. Sin is contrary to the will of God. God is not the author of evil.
The difference is that God's election is not by some hidden, inscrutable, sovereign choice; but by grace through the Incarnate Logos.
That isn't the Lutheran opposition, the Lutheran opposition to synergism is that attributes to man works which contribute to his salvation. It's not that it detracts from God's glory, but that it detracts from God's grace. When the Lutheran confesses that salvation is by grace alone, we mean that in the most absolute of terms: Grace alone. It is God who comes down, not we who go up. It is God who meets us, not us meeting God half way. It is God, in His mercy, kindness, and love embracing the humility and shame of the cross that rescues us, makes us right with God, and heals us.
It is intrinsically about making a firm distinction between Law and Gospel. From Luther's Heidelberg Disputation: "The Law says 'Do this' and it is never done. Grace says 'Trust this' and it is already done." The Law commands that which is good and right, and reveals that we are not righteous, but sinners; the Law is therefore unable to save us. No one can be righteous according to the Law, except One: Jesus Christ by whose righteous obedience has undone Adam's disobedience, by His death and resurrection crucifies sin and death and heals us, justifying us before God, and uniting us to Himself and to His life as pure gift, so that we have in Him sonship, by which we are heirs of God, joint-heirs with Jesus, and by the Spirit cry out, "Abba! Father!" and are made partakers of the divine nature, by grace, ultimately to the fullness that we will have in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal and immortal life in the Age to Come.
Lutheranism speaks of the distinction between Coram Deo and Coram Hominibus; that is us before God and us before our fellow human beings. To put it another way, God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. God does not benefit from our good deeds, but our neighbor does--because they have hungry mouths to feed, they are thirsty and need drink, a roof over their head. The Law of God calls us outward, in love, toward others, in service to Jesus Christ, to live lives as living sacrifices to God. Our sacrifices, however, do not improve our status before God, it does not improve our station before God--the love and grace of God which He has for us in Jesus, which we have received in full from Him, received in faith through Word and Sacrament is truly, and indeed, full. We can't win brownie points with God, we can't make Him love us less, and we can't make Him love us more--He loves us fully, perfectly, and completely because, as St. John reminds us, God is love.
So what are our good deeds for? Are they for God? No, they are for our fellow man. Nothing we can do can increase, improve, or contribute to what God has already done for us, and already gives us. For He gives us the fullness of Himself in Jesus, the love we have, the grace we have, the salvation we have from Him is perfect and complete; for Christ died for the whole world. As St. Paul says, by grace we have been saved, not by our efforts, so that no one may boast; but we have been created for good works which have been prepared for us, that we might walk in them (Ephesians 2:10). The good works we do are not to improve our place before God, as though God rewards us based on our merits; but rather the works we do we do out of love for God and in response to the great love He has for us, and we do them for the sake of our neighbor.
Good works aren't that we might be saved, but rather we have been saved for good works.
We say it is monergistic because man is a passive recipient of God's mercies. Man does have a role to play in the living out of his faith, the living out of his salvation in the grace and love of God--that is the Coram Hominibus dimension of our Christian life. Christianity is not a purely vertical experience--us and God. It is also a horizontal one, us and other people and all of creation. Salvation comes solely from above, from God, down to us, as grace; but this grace and this life we have received is to be lived out in sacrifice and service to others. The Lutheran distinction is to say that the Coram Hominibus dimension of Christian life is not about our contributing to our salvation (what we have received from God) but of living that salvation out in response to God's grace.
This isn't the Lutheran position, however. God doesn't choose to damn anyone. God damns nobody. Since it is God's will that everyone be saved, Christ died for everyone. We damn ourselves. God is not unjust, since He does not pick and choose who will and won't be saved; God is just and the justifier of the unjust.
God alone saves.
Man alone damns.
To quote C.S. Lewis, "There are only two kinds of people in the end, those who say to God, 'Thy will be done.' And to those to whom God says, 'Thy will be done.'"
St. Isaac the Syrian speaks of two kinds of people in the end, those who experience the love of God as blessedness, and those who experience the love of God as anguish--but God deprives His love from no one, for love is impartial, and God's love is for everyone. The distinction isn't God's disposition toward us, but our disposition toward God. What the Lutheran says is that our disposition toward God changes, not by our own will, but by God's grace which comes to us through the Gospel, granting us faith.
Why then are some damned? Not by God's decree, will, or choice--but by man's own sinful, willful choice. It is man who chooses his own destruction, because it is God's will that he be saved and live and have life abundantly in the Age to Come.
-CryptoLutheran
Does God will you to sin?
The question is ambiguous. Which meaning of "will" are you referring to?
Calvinists don't believe in free will.
Ordain. The Bible says that he predestined for them to do it.Did God ordain them to do it or allow them to do it?
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