Do Borderlines see their actions as abusive?

[WalrusGumBoot]

Hello all.

This is my very first post on this site. I joined specifically to help me understand BPD from a spiritual perspective. I have been married to Christian woman with BPD for 23 years. She has left us near financial ruin and me worn out, depressed, and isolated. I had filed for divorce earlier this year, but had reconciled with her because I wanted to do things God's way. Maybe there was something I was not doing spiritually.

The question was really for those on this site with BPD. Is a borderline aware of the emotional pain they cause their loved ones, seemingly with no remorse. Why is it so difficult and rare to hear them say they are sorry?

WG

 

[PegMonkey]

I believe there is a spectrum of symptoms, soft and hard symptoms. (I was told this by my therapists) She told me that I was on the soft side of the symptoms, because I knew that things weren't right, that I was doing wrong, and wanted to change. And had remorse.
people with hard symptoms on the BPD spectrum, don't realize that they are doing anything wrong, or they think that its someone else's fault and dont see the need to change. So it depends where your spouse fell on the spectrum. But through therapy people when they move towards recovery their symptoms soften, and they begin to take the steps to take responsibility for their reactions and emotions, and stop feeling like a victom, and stop blaming everything on others.

Also Ill add I thought alot of my anger and rages were justified. so one night I threw a wine bottle and smashed it on the floor and screamed at my husband. (my kids were sleeping upstairs)After I was somewhat calmed down he said " what would you have done if you came home and i did that to you?"... I didn't want to think about it that night. But then in the next couple of days it hit me . I realized I would have called the cops on him for abuse.
Thats when I had the revelation that I was an abusive wife. I haven't thrown anything since then. That was my wakeup call.

 

[WalrusGumBoot]

I believe there is a spectrum of symptoms, soft and hard symptoms. (I was told this by my therapists) She told me that I was on the soft side of the symptoms, because I knew that things weren't right, that I was doing wrong, and wanted to change. And had remorse.
people with hard symptoms on the BPD spectrum, don't realize that they are doing anything wrong, or they think that its someone else's fault and dont see the need to change. So it depends where your spouse fell on the spectrum.

Interesting about "hard" and "soft" symptoms. My wife is definitely in the hard camp. Good example. Four months ago we were separated. She had our adult son (21) living with her, who by the way is a budding psychiatrist and understands BPD very well. I was doing my best to support them and myself with two house payments. She tells me she needs to go grocery shopping, so I made sure there was $400 in our joint account that she could use. She calls me from the grocery store (our son was with her) and complains there was not enough money to grocery shop. She then accuses me of hiding money and calls me a psycho. I hang up.

She then turns to my son and tells him that she cannot believe I hung up on her (he recounted this incident to me at a later date). He tells her that he doesn't blame me for doing so, being that she called me a psycho. She said "I did not". He told her that she did. She stated she has no recollection of saying that.

I guess this is an extreme example of hard symptoms. Does she get so in the red that she completely disconnects from reality and actually does not remember? Or is it that she knows what she says and feels ashamed and will not take responsibility for her actions by lying about it?

Thanks for your help.

WG

 

[Joanne P]

Yes, sometimes people BPD people have disconnects and truly cannot remember. I know this because I read an article (I can search my files, but don't have it handy at the mo) which revealed the same brain "segmenting" (my word) or ... cognitive dissociation.... as people with multiple personalities experience. It is actually like a state dependent experience. Fascinating. But yes, some people could only recall what was said or done when they were in the same emotional state. So, your wife may not recall calling you a psycho now... but if she gets very upset again, might recall calling it to you THEN.

I am sorry my explaination is zig-zaggy. I am a bit tired tonight. Hope it makes sense.

 

[JadeTigress]

I don't see mine as abusive. Whether they actually are or not, I don't know.

But in response to the OP's second post, her rages could be either way (doesn't remember doing something, or doesn't want to admit it). For myself, though, it depends on how big of a rage it is. If I go into a huge, full blown rage, I just go. I don't really know what I'm doing, it just happens. And I won't remember details until later when I've calmed down and I have a chance to actually go back and think about it.

 

[Joanne P]

delete, sorry... I'll come back with more research

 

[WalrusGumBoot]

Yes, sometimes people BPD people have cognitive dissociation.... as people with multiple personalities experience. It is actually like a state dependent experience. Fascinating. But yes, some people could only recall what was said or done when they were in the same emotional state. So, your wife may not recall calling you a psycho now... but if she gets very upset again, might recall calling it to you THEN.

I've seen her multiple personalities and a few times it was very frightening. She is like a different person down to her voice.

I think what you are suggesting is that, like in the move The Three Faces of Eve, each personality is compartmentalized in the brain and cannot remember what transpired in a state that she is not in?

 

[WalrusGumBoot]

If I go into a huge, full blown rage, I just go. I don't really know what I'm doing, it just happens.

Do you lose all ability to prevent this? Do you regret going there and saying the things that you do?

As far as the other party, do they escalate along with you? I guess what I am probing for is the correct response when my wife goes into her rages. It seems like she is insistent on making me sit there and "take it" and me removing myself from the situation often causes her to be destructive to property or herself.

Sorry, but I have a million and one questions for those with BPD. It is my prayer that she take responsibility for herself and seeks help, but so far everybody else is the cause for her pain. I don't know what it will take for her to get there.

 

[RainbowBaby]

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[RainbowBaby]

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[madison1101]

Prior to my divorce, I had made tons of positive changes. I had been in therapy for over ten years, and my husband had left once for a week. I knew I needed to change.

In the beginning of therapy, my denial was so thick, I could not see my behavior. It took marital therapy, with MY therapist, to break through my denial. After three years of me finally changing, my husband snapped and left. He filed for divorce, and moved on. When I realized that he was gone because of me, it was like scales dropping off of my eyes. I had flashbacks of ALL of my horrendous behavior in my marriage and raising my children. For the first time in over 10 years of therapy, I wept. I recounted everything I remembered and made amends to all three of my children.

Now, ten years after my husband left, I am friends with him and his second wife. My kids love me and we get along terrifically. I struggled when my ex remarried, and was resistant to meet her, because of my shame. I felt my kids would prefer her over me, because she was saner, thinner, and prettier than me. That was not true. My kids treat me with dignity and respect, and have forgiven me.

If you are being physically assaulted, leave. If you have children who are being abused, get them away from her.

That is my advice from my experience with my BPD.

Trish

 

[WalrusGumBoot]

Now, ten years after my husband left, I am friends with him and his second wife. My kids love me and we get along terrifically.

I'm sorry that it had cost you your marriage, but congratulations on taking responsibility for your life and seeking treatment... and ultimately saving very important relationships.

I don't know what it would take for my wife to want to help herself. She is so deep in denial. She has no idea the turmoil she has caused.

 

[madison1101]

I'm sorry that it had cost you your marriage, but congratulations on taking responsibility for your life and seeking treatment... and ultimately saving very important relationships.

I don't know what it would take for my wife to want to help herself. She is so deep in denial. She has no idea the turmoil she has caused.

It took my husband telling me to get help, or he'd leave me. My fear of abandonment was through the roof. Every time he made moves to leave, I got better. When he left, I got well. I prayed for reconciliation, and refused to date until he remarried. I know I have a lot of work to do on myself still, because I relapsed on alcohol, after 6 years of sobriety, and spent a little over 2 years struggling to get sober. When I picked up alcohol, a lot of my borderline thinking and acting out came back, mostly cutting and overeating. After 20 years in AA, and training in mental health, I ended up in the psych ward for a week, and an inpatient rehab for two weeks. That was 19 months ago.

I have not been in any serious relationships, and am not really looking at this time. I believe God has some serious work to do in me before I get into a relationship, because I know how clingy I was in my marriage, and I don't want to ever become so dependent on a man like I was in my marriage. I am content to remain single till the Lord is done His work, and brings a healthy man into my life. I am looking for a burning bush to tell me when it is time, and He has not sent that since my husband left.

Understand, I was so enmeshed into my husband, that when he left I told my therapist, "Without a man, I am nothing." God is working on building my identity based on HIM, not men.

Sorry to babble. It may take you leaving, if necessary for good, to motivate your wife. Understand, that my husband and I spent years in marital therapy for years just prior to him leaving. He went back into a session a month after he left, thinking he might be able to work on reconciling, but said in that session that he couldn't after all. The therapist told us my husband had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from living with me for 25 years.

If you are not in therapy for yourself, consider going and working on healing your mind and heart and discuss your mental health.

God bless,
Trish

 

[WalrusGumBoot]

It may take you leaving, if necessary for good, to motivate your wife.

I did file for divorce in February. Understand it was under the pretense that it was going to be "amicable" and we were to remain friends. She decided to relocate 250 miles away and moved in March. Over the next few months the whole divorce story changed to that of me abandoning her. Then sheer panic set in for her.

She promised to go to counseling, something she always refused to do. She started to self-harm, which is something I never saw her do in my presence, but my 21 year old son saw where she scratched up the inside of her arm with her fingernails. I got very worried.

We are now back together, living in the same house, but I have not withdrawn my divorce petition yet. I can see some old habits coming back and backing out of promises starting.

So far the support I have received has been from people who know nothing about BPD, or from those in past or present relationships with somebody with BPD. I have never communicated with people who have BPD and admit it, and are recovering. This is why I have been posting in this forum. I want to understand the illness more.

Thank you for your posts.

 

[madison1101]

I did file for divorce in February. Understand it was under the pretense that it was going to be "amicable" and we were to remain friends. She decided to relocate 250 miles away and moved in March. Over the next few months the whole divorce story changed to that of me abandoning her. Then sheer panic set in for her.

She promised to go to counseling, something she always refused to do. She started to self-harm, which is something I never saw her do in my presence, but my 21 year old son saw where she scratched up the inside of her arm with her fingernails. I got very worried.

We are now back together, living in the same house, but I have not withdrawn my divorce petition yet. I can see some old habits coming back and backing out of promises starting.

So far the support I have received has been from people who know nothing about BPD, or from those in past or present relationships with somebody with BPD. I have never communicated with people who have BPD and admit it, and are recovering. This is why I have been posting in this forum. I want to understand the illness more.

Thank you for your posts.

Hopefully, your wife's therapist is a licensed mental health professional with experience working with BPD. There are many counselors out there that should not work with BPDs, because of the nature of the illness. Therapy is different from counseling. There are many people who put shingles out without licenses. Also, your wife should have a psychiatric evaluation to see if she needs medication. I do. My psychiatrist and I have worked together since 1990, and my psychologist/therapist since 1989. My therapist is a "Kick me in the butt and get me on the right track" therapist. No excuses have ever been accepted by him for my borderline behavior.

God bless.
Trish

 

[Joanne P]

I've seen her multiple personalities and a few times it was very frightening. She is like a different person down to her voice.

I think what you are suggesting is that, like in the move The Three Faces of Eve, each personality is compartmentalized in the brain and cannot remember what transpired in a state that she is not in?

I haven't seen that movie, but it may well be.

My Mother was BPD in my opinion- she was never diagnosed. She was a very different person when she was in an episode. After, she would have no recollection of it- none. I felt like the crazy one at those times.

That said, I would not trade her for any other Mother on earth. I know she was ill, and that it was a brain disorder, nothing she could help. She was also the most loving person, at times more like a saint, really.

 

[WalrusGumBoot]

Also Ill add I thought alot of my anger and rages were justified. so one night I threw a wine bottle and smashed it on the floor and screamed at my husband. (my kids were sleeping upstairs)After I was somewhat calmed down he said " what would you have done if you came home and i did that to you?"... I didn't want to think about it that night. But then in the next couple of days it hit me . I realized I would have called the cops on him for abuse.
Thats when I had the revelation that I was an abusive wife. I haven't thrown anything since then. That was my wakeup call.

PegMonkey, I'm glad you had your wake up call. I'm still waiting for mine to have hers.

It was earlier this year, after the decision was made to divorce and before she moved out that we stayed in separate bedrooms. One day we were nice to each other, the next day we were not very nice. One night, around 11pm she starts pounding on my bedroom door. I cracked it open and she started pushing on it repeatedly like she wanted in. She kept saying she wanted in, and I kept saying no. She was obviously in a rage and I didn't want anything to do with it.

Then she started saying I had some women in there with me. She called me every name in the book, including accusing me of being a sociopath. I said I would dress and come out. I shut the door and she started throwing pictures and the glass was smashing. She threw things at the door, causing the wood to break in several spots. She picked a wall and started kicking holes in it. All the while she was screaming that she hated me and all kinds of stuff. I slipped my phone in my pocket on the way out with the voice recorder going. I did not lose my composure, but she proceeded on a 3 hour rant, including how I was not a Christian, and this and that.

The next day she called our handyman, who is a brother in the Lord that we've known for 20 years. When he came out and saw the holes, he said "So somebody push somebody into the wall?" I told him no and did not explain how they got there.

That whole incident was such an extreme outburst, all I wanted to do was to get away from her and I didn't care whether I ever seen her again. My nerves were shot for days. She never apologized for anything she said, the damage she did to the house (which was for sale at the time!) or anything. I'm sure she felt justified in her eyes for doing what she did.

So my original question was if borderlines see their abuse? Obviously you saw the light and you did something pretty extreme for that to happen. But my wife hasn't reached that point and I don't know what will. The only thing missing was physical abuse and it better not go there, because if she saw the light, she would see it with me heading out the door, never to return.

 

[RainbowBaby]

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[Joanne P]

If a diabetic gets too low on their insulin, then they can also get very angry and even delusional. The mind is a powerful and somewhat tricky thing. Just as I would not label a diabetic in this case "abusive"... I take caution before labeling people in a BPD episode abusive.

I prefer to say they have behaviors which are really not connective or connecting. Which is what we want most, generally, is connectivity. When things like "rages" happen, then it is not that sufferers are saying yippie, this is great fun... or even just "not caring."

I think tough love, walking away, shutting down are all really horrible for many people with BPD. There was a great group called Love Is The Cure around for a while, but it's disappeared. I think love is the answer and the cure.

There are also abusive people in the world, but someone in a BPD episode should not be defined by their worst moments. I don't think calling BPD people abusive is very fair as a blanket statement.

I guess what I am saying is... there was a study where a kindergarden teacher was told some of her students were high functioning. She treated them as such, and though they were randomly chosen, they were the ones who excelled. A lot of times people behave to expectations. If a partner cannot look with love and admiration at their partner NO MATTER their episodes... then I think it will be bad for the sufferer to continue to try to extract love from someone who does not want to be patient.

If you'd get mad at a partner with diabetes for behaving erratically without insulin, then every friend of the diabetes person would say "that is not nice!" Since evidence shows BPD is neurobiological.... then a partner needs to commit to being patient while neuroplasticity changes in the sufferer. It could be a long ride, and what will change the brain is LOVE and feeling accepted. Each fight and squabble cements faulty repairs in neuroplasticity.

I know this view will not be popular, but it is scientifically the most reasonable to me.

 

[RainbowBaby]

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