Do Angel's Learn and to what extent?

[TheSacredSecrets]

Hello everyone!

I posted a thread on the main board about this but I wanted to ask a second question in relation (I include the first question so you can see where I'm coming from).

Here is the original question: Do angels learn? I think they do because of two reason's: 1) Angels are finite beings, they don't know everything as God does; and, 2) 1 Peter 1:12 says: "...things into which angels long to look." To me, this is something they do not know, but long to know. To me these two things seem to indicate that angels can learn.

What do you think?

Here is a follow up question: If you believe angels can learn, to what extent do the have to learn? In other words, when angels were first created did they have to learn everything like a human child would have to? So if one of them perhaps (thinking from a human perspective) was assigned by God to make the books that become the book of life, how much did this angel need to learn? Book binding, paper making, glue making, etc.?

Curious to know your thoughts....

In His Power and Grace,
John

 

[GrowingInGrace]

Angels are not finite creatures. Humans in their flesh bodies are finite.

Angels of God are in the presence of God who is light. So they know more than humans do about the kingdom of God - the spirit realm.

The only angels who don't know anything that would have to do with God would be the fallen angels who are of the darkness. They can't comprehend what God has made humans capable of comprehending. They have been cast out from God's presence.

If demons had been capable of comprehending, then they never would have crucified the Lord of glory because that was their defeat. So yes of course they'd be longing to know things of what's to come. But we Christians could help them out by telling them what the book of Revelation says concerning their ultimate destiny.

Sorry if this was not the sort of answer that you were looking for.

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

[

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

Angels are not finite creatures. Humans in their flesh bodies are finite.

They are infinite in knowledge too? No, sorry. They are FINITE in their knowledge and their compass, therefore they are finite beings. The only being that is infinite is God. He is the only one who is omnipresent, omniscient, all knowing, etc. No angel is infinite. They will live forever, but we will live forever also, and we are not infinite. Length of life is not a determiner of an infinite being.

The only angels who don't know anything that would have to do with God would be the fallen angels who are of the darkness. They can't comprehend what God has made humans capable of comprehending. They have been cast out from God's presence.

I don't know where to begin with this...So these angels that fell, including Lucifer (aka Satan) forgot everything about God when they fell? Then how do you suppose Satan quoted (nearly perfectly) God breathed scripture to Jesus? Satan knew about the command to Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. And the Amplified Bible in Jn 14:30 calls Satan, a fallen angel, an evil genius. So I'd say they'd be able to comprehend what humans are capable of and more. However, there are things that cannot enter into their mind or spirit (how ever you want to define it), love for example, and I believe this may be what you may mean?

Also, in your opinion when were they cast out of heaven? It seems that you are tying their casting out of God's presence with their fall from grace. However, in Job there is evidence that Lucifer had access to the presence of God (which is of course after Lucifer's sin).

If demons had been capable of comprehending, then they never would have crucified the Lord of glory because that was their defeat. So yes of course they'd be longing to know things of what's to come. But we Christians could help them out by telling them what the book of Revelation says concerning their ultimate destiny.

Uhm, they can't read it for themselves? We Christians can help the Angels out by telling the Angels what the book of Revelation says? Hebrews (2:2) says that the Word of God is delivered to US through the Angels and not through US to ANGELS...and Revelation backs this up.

I would like for you to provide me reference that demons crucified the Lord because it was they who did not comprehend (as opposed to humans or fallen angel or the combination of the two/all of the above). Because I have been looking for scriptural proof of this (not necessarily the demonic aspect) for some time.



In Him,
TSS

 

[GrowingInGrace]

They are infinite in knowledge too? No, sorry. They are FINITE in their knowledge and their compass, therefore they are finite beings.

I didn't say that they were infinite in knowledge. You inserted that assumption.

Angels of God are in the presence of God who is light. So they know more than humans do about the kingdom of God - the spirit realm.

The only being that is infinite is God. He is the only one who is omnipresent, omniscient, all knowing, etc. No angel is infinite. They will live forever, but we will live forever also, and we are not infinite. Length of life is not a determiner of an infinite being.

One having eternity, one in Christ Jesus having a glorified body, one having access to all that God knows gets very close to being an infinite being.

Though now we are finite, but then we will be infinite.

I don't know where to begin with this...So these angels that fell, including Lucifer (aka Satan) forgot everything about God when they fell?

I didn't say that they forgot. You inserted that assumption.

The only angels who don't know anything that would have to do with God would be the fallen angels who are of the darkness.
They can't comprehend what God has made humans capable of comprehending.

The second statement clarifies the first.

If demons had been capable of comprehending, then they never would have crucified the Lord of glory because that was their defeat.

That statement clarifies the first two.

Then how do you suppose Satan quoted (nearly perfectly) God breathed scripture to Jesus?

In no way did I at anytime indicate that satan couldn't read or quote scripture.

I also used the word comprehend, or lack of in conjunction with the crucifixion of Jesus.

Do you or do you not agree that due to his dark and rebellious nature, Satan twisted it's meaning in an attempt to get Jesus to bow and acknowledge him as master.

Satan knew about the command to Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.

Probably did. But that doesn't indicate that he's supersmart.

And the Amplified Bible in Jn 14:30 calls Satan, a fallen angel, an evil genius.

The phrase "evil genious" is in parenthesis meaning that it's added at the privilege of the person or persons who put the Bible in amplified version. The phrase is not found anywhere in the original text.

So I'd say they'd be able to comprehend what humans are capable of and more.

Satan is not able to comprehend what a person is thinking. If satan were able to comprehend more than a person could then he'd be able to comprehend God, and he can't.

However, there are things that cannot enter into their mind or spirit (how ever you want to define it), love for example, and I believe this may be what you may mean?

It's true, with God's love a person is able to discern/comprehend. But that isn't what I was thinking about at the time I wrote the post.

Also, in your opinion when were they cast out of heaven?

My opinion makes no difference whatsoever. I put forth scriptures that I believe give answer to a question.

From Genesis we understand that "the snake" is not a literal crawling reptile but a creature that allowed satan to speak through it, which God cursed to be a crawling reptile.

So satan was cast out sometime before God began to create all that is recorded in Genesis chapter one, etc. Ezekiel 28:16 confirms it.

No one can be in heaven who opposes God. The concept is much like magnets. Put like ends facing each other and they pull themselves together. Put opposite ends facing each other and they both resist each other.

It seems that you are tying their casting out of God's presence with their fall from grace. However, in Job there is evidence that Lucifer had access to the presence of God (which is of course after Lucifer's sin).

Ezekiel 28:16 says not.

If you will check the word "presence" in regard to God, you will see many scriptures in the old testament where the believer talks about being in God's presence.

But of course we know that they never left earth and visited heaven in order to do it.
We are told to come to the throne of grace, but the statement is not literal.

In the Jewish religious culture they use a prayer shawl to remind themselves of God's omni nature in their daily lives.
So the prayer shawl is figuratively synonymous with God's presence.

In the gospels Jesus told Peter that satan sought to sift him as wheat. Does that in anyway sound similar to what satan wanted to do with Job? In both cases their faith in God was greatly tested.
Jesus told Peter, I have prayed that your faith not fail. And neither did Job's faith in God fail.

Satan had to ask permission from God in both cases. To do that he had to address God. But why assume that he literally went to the throne of God in order to do it?

Righteousness and unrighteousness are those two magnets., they oppose one another.

You don't have to accept my reasons for believing this. You asked me what I believed about it and I've told you.

Uhm, they can't read it for themselves?

I didn't say that they couldn't read the Bible for themselves.

So yes of course they'd be longing to know things of what's to come. But we Christians could help them out by telling them what the book of Revelation says concerning their ultimate destiny.

They seem to act like they don't remember what the Bible says in certain places, so I meant that any Christian could remind them by reading it outloud. A person would have to do that because they can't read our minds.

We Christians can help the Angels out by telling the Angels what the book of Revelation says? Hebrews (2:2) says that the Word of God is delivered to US through the Angels and not through US to ANGELS...and Revelation backs this up.

Well see. I wasn't talking about the angels, but about demons.

I would like for you to provide me reference that demons crucified the Lord because it was they who did not comprehend (as opposed to humans or fallen angel or the combination of the two/all of the above).

I see that now you agree with what I've been stating all along. That demons cannot comprehend everything.

I have a question for you. What is the difference between demons and fallen angels?

Do you think that the humans (the pharisees, etc Or the disciples) did comprehend?

Because I have been looking for scriptural proof of this (not necessarily the demonic aspect) for some time.

In Him,
TSS

6-8, "We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

The scripture can certainly refer to human rulers, as it does in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

But Ezekiel 28:11- 19 is talking about the anointed cherub.. satan's former position.
Surely you are aware that demons work by getting people, or in the case of the Genesis creature, to do his bidding.

The phrase, "the rulers of this age/world" is a reference to those demons. You recall Judas Iscariot? Do you recall that the record stated that the devil entered him and he went away to betray Jesus?

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

I didn't say that they were infinite in knowledge. You inserted that assumption.

It would help if you could stick to the point. First of all, it is not an assumption that angels are finite in knowledge. Secondly, I used that aspect of angels finiteness, to disprove your position that Angles are infinite. They are created beings, they have a beginning. Therefore they are finite.

One having eternity, one in Christ Jesus having a glorified body, one having access to all that God knows gets very close to being an infinite being.

Close is still not infinite.

Though now we are finite, but then we will be infinite.

If by infinite you mean we will live forever, I agree that we will live forever. However, living forever does NOT make one infinite. We are created beings and we are not infinite. In every aspect we are finite.

I didn't say that they forgot. You inserted that assumption.

You misuse the word assumption. Allow me to quote you: "They can't comprehend what God has made humans capable of comprehending." There at least two problems with this statement: 1) The fallen angles, before they fell, were capable of comprehending a lot more than what humans are capable of comprehending. I use the "forgot" argument because of its ridiculous supposition. I know they didn't forget, but your statement either supposes that they forgot or God removed it from them. 2) You may be confusing mental capacity with moral capacity. Angels have full mental capacity, however, their moral capacity is completely gone. Fallen angels are still highly competent mentally, but morally they are corrupt and unable to act in truth or love.

The second statement clarifies the first.



That statement clarifies the first two.

These statements are a non-sequitur, and doesn't address angel's finiteness. You change from talking about fallen angels to demons - two separate and different types of beings. What is said about demons cannot be applied to angels in this case. Further, there is no scriptural proof that the verse you refer to is referring to demons.

In no way did I at anytime indicate that satan couldn't read or quote scripture.

Nope, I did. And I was using it to prove to you that fallen angels still have full mental capacity.

I also used the word comprehend, or lack of in conjunction with the crucifixion of Jesus.

Do you or do you not agree that due to his dark and rebellious nature, Satan twisted it's meaning in an attempt to get Jesus to bow and acknowledge him as master.

Yes he did twist and misquote it. However, that shows he is mentally proficient and morally deficient.

Probably did. But that doesn't indicate that he's supersmart.

Oh, come on. You know that in Ezekiel 28 it says he was PERFECT in Wisdom. Do you think someone who was PERFECT in Wisdom is a mental moron?

The phrase "evil genious" is in parenthesis meaning that it's added at the privilege of the person or persons who put the Bible in amplified version. The phrase is not found anywhere in the original text.

The term ruler is in parenthesis too, is it disqualified also because of that? Are you saying that "evil genius" is not a qualification of Satan? Are you saying that you understand the meaning of the Greek word (and other references) much better than the scholars of the Amplified bible? Further, it only takes and IQ of 120 to be a genius. The average human is 100, do you think that Satan can't manage to eek out a 120?

Satan is not able to comprehend what a person is thinking. If satan were able to comprehend more than a person could then he'd be able to comprehend God, and he can't.

Satan cannot read anyones mind. However, that little dialog between God and Satan in Job was pretty adept (and more than most people realize) and that little dialog between Satan and Jesus was somewhat adept as well. How many people that opposed Jesus at that time were able to come up with a more profound attempt to derail Jesus? It seemed like he was able to carry on a fairly coherent and smart conversation with God and Jesus. So his mental capacity seems to fairly high.

From Genesis we understand that "the snake" is not a literal crawling reptile but a creature that allowed satan to speak through it, which God cursed to be a crawling reptile.


So satan was cast out sometime before God began to create all that is recorded in Genesis chapter one, etc. Ezekiel 28:16 confirms it.

No one can be in heaven who opposes God. The concept is much like magnets. Put like ends facing each other and they pull themselves together. Put opposite ends facing each other and they both resist each other.

I agree that Satan fell and became a fallen angel before the events in the Garden of Eden. But how do you explain: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them...." i.e. Satan came presented himself before, in the presence of, the Lord. (Job 1:6) Oh, BTW, this happened twice.

Ezekiel 28:16 says not.

If you will check the word "presence" in regard to God, you will see many scriptures in the old testament where the believer talks about being in God's presence.

We can't be in God's presence unless we go to heaven? Nonsense. We can be in God's presence at anytime or how else is it said: "In your presence there is fullness of Joy." Was the author of that imagining what it would be like to be in God's presence or did he experience it? What about the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant and the Shekinah glory is that also not the presence of God; What about what happened in the dedication of Solomon's temple or in the upper room...I could go on for a while here. All of those people experienced the presence of God because God is infinite all else are finite.

But of course we know that they never left earth and visited heaven in order to do it.

There are at least three people in scripture that I can think of off the top of my head who have gone to heaven.

In the gospels Jesus told Peter that satan sought to sift him as wheat. Does that in anyway sound similar to what satan wanted to do with Job? In both cases their faith in God was greatly tested.
Jesus told Peter, I have prayed that your faith not fail. And neither did Job's faith in God fail.

Satan had to ask permission from God in both cases. To do that he had to address God. But why assume that he literally went to the throne of God in order to do it?

It's not an assumption that Satan went to heaven literally, because the book of Job says Satan was among those who presented themselves before God.

I see that now you agree with what I've been stating all along. That demons cannot comprehend everything.

Not true.

I have a question for you. What is the difference between demons and fallen angels?

Fallen angels used to be righteous angels. Demons have never been angels are a different creation/being from angels. Demons knew who Jesus was when He was on earth it seems more readily than even His disciples. So they seem pretty adept as well. They too are finite being even though they are spiritual beings and will not die.

The scripture can certainly refer to human rulers, as it does in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

But Ezekiel 28:11- 19 is talking about the anointed cherub.. satan's former position.
Surely you are aware that demons work by getting people, or in the case of the Genesis creature, to do his bidding.

The phrase, "the rulers of this age/world" is a reference to those demons. You recall Judas Iscariot? Do you recall that the record stated that the devil entered him and he went away to betray Jesus?

It seems to me that you are saying that demons and fallen angels are the same thing. There is only one fallen angel at work on the earth as all the rest of them are bound up in chains as it says: "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day." So you see, if there had been any fallen angel who did not keep their own domain (i.e. meddled in human affairs) they would be in chains now. With one exception, Satan. All other evil beings are "unclean spirits"/"demons" but are NOT fallen angels. There is good reason for this, however, that is a different topic altogether.

 

[GrowingInGrace]

I am not interested in answering long posts at this time. I have stated the post as I believe it, how anyone else believes it is their privilege.

I will not be answering anyone any further on this thread. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[watchtower08]

Well, you two certainly had a lot to talk about. But as to the original question: do angels learn, I think we can take it to the Bible as the ultimate authority on this matter. Job 4:18, KJV says that God "put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly. In other words- angels make mistakes. If they make mistakes, then they are fallible, but capable of learning. To what extent, we really don't know for sure.

Of course, it could be argued that since this statement was made by Eliphaz, a clear antagonist in the book of Job, what he says can be disregarded, but on the same token Paul cites something I believe Bildad had to say. So take it as you would... with blessings

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

Excellent! I did not have that verse on my list, I will add it immediately! Thanks watchtower08.

I think another interesting aspect is found in Ezekiel 28 where it says that Lucifer sinned because of the multitude of his trade. To me, I think that the trade he had, whatever it was, taught him something that filled him with violence. Or he "discovered" something he had previously did not know (or think about) and that something, whatever he learned filled him with violence that then led to his sin.

I think that process, during his multitude of trade, of going from sinless, to having learned or discovered something new, to thinking about it, to meditating on it to eventually acting on it shows a progression of learning to me. I think he thought of how he might become like God (or the thought that "hey, the work I do here is kinda like the work God does...") and as he examined it he learned new facets of his discovery that led him to think that he could eventually become like God. Isaiah describes that part of the process involved in his heart: "Yet, thou, didst say in thy heart: The heavens, will I ascend, Above the stars of GOD, will I lift up my throne, That I may sit in the Mount of Assembly In the Recesses of the North: I will mount on the hills of the clouds, I will match the Most High!”

Perhaps because of the multitude of his trade, because maybe he was in charge of so much and his "empire" was so great, that he thought he could take his little "empire" and rule it like God separate from God. (This is just one possibility to me, an example.) Maybe he had a fleeting thought of how he could "get away with it." Who knows for sure, but to me it seems like he had a thought, meditated on that thought, learned about it and then implemented it.

I think it also a possibility that he took this newly learned principle of a suggestion of a possibility and put it into practice in the Garden with Adam and Eve. He "suggested" that something about what God had told them may mean something else and that got them to thinking about it/doubting it etc.

I don't know, just my thoughts here. I'm formulating something bigger than this of which angels learning is a important segment.

Thanks for the feedback!

In Him,
TSS

 

[graceNpeace]

Here is the original question: Do angels learn?

If you believe angels can learn, to what extent do the have to learn? In other words, when angels were first created did they have to learn everything like a human child would have to?

Angels definitely don't know everything, Hebrews 2 gives us an indication of this with these verses, they had no idea what man was:

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?


Good question about if angels have to learn everything like a child does tho, makes you wonder if Adam had to learn everything like a child or was he and they given a certain extent of common knowledge.

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

Good question about if angels have to learn everything like a child does tho, makes you wonder if Adam had to learn everything like a child or was he and they given a certain extent of common knowledge.

That it a good question too. I was pondering it sometime back and realized that just as God gave Adam (and then Eve too I believe) special attention - walking in the garden with them - he even gave Cain special attention (just before he murdered Abel and directly after). I think this is a clear indication of how God looks out for His creation even tho we go astray. Look at it from Cain's perspective given what you said. If Cain did have limited knowledge (that is, he had to learn from scratch) then that clearly explains why God talked to him concerning if he did good this would happen and if he did bad then sin would be crouching at your door. Then consider what God did after he murdered Abel. God even spoke to him then and gave him instruction and mercy! I find it fascinating both that God, given the wickedness of Cain still took time to talk with him because of the ignorance he was subject to (thank God for that - because I am woefully ignorant myself!), even after he has sinned and He had mercy on him regarding the mark. God is not all about punishment but about justice and when appropriate tempering justice with mercy.

This lack of knowledge is supported by the fact that God, only AFTER Cain's murder of Abel, did He then institute the law for punishing murderers. Imagine if God tried to implement that law before people understood what murder was! He'd have to explain what murder was (terminating someones life unjustly....then have your creation ask: "what does terminate mean?") God would be guilty of giving knowledge unto mankind that would have made murder a more obvious alternative if a fight ensued. (This kinda answers the question about sex education for children does it not?)

God bless!

TSS

 

[K2K]

I found this thread interesting. Not the question itself: "Do angels learn?". Christ learn obedience through suffering, so are angels greater than the Lord?

The Lord reproves those he loves, and doesn't He love the angels that serve Him. Reproof is a form of teaching. Reproof can be as simple as showing you a better way to do things. The Lord is call the teacher, and anyone that has listened to Him surely must understand this. A number of other very good points, and scriptures were also brought up by others which of course pointed to the obvious.

Still what I found interesting was that this is a question at all. At least I can't fully understanding why it is a question to other 'believers'?

As believers we are to be listening with our spiritual ears. If so, do we only hear from the Lord? God is spirit, but He is not the only spirit. And certainly not the only spirit that we can hear from. And not all other spirits that we can hear from are demons.

Ps 19:1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God

Ps 19:4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world.

Rms 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable ...

We preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but don't we also preach a Kingdom? A kingdom is not made up of only one, or even three is it? The Kindgom of God is made up of a great multitude, of which many are angels.

We are suposed to listen to and follow the Lord, but are not all angels ministering spirits? So we are to be hearing from them also, right?

The Lord, who is called "The Word of God" is the door to the Kingdom. So I first heard Him, and was lead into the Kingdom by Him. Then after in the Kingdom, I hear conversation between those in the Kingdom. David wrote, "The Lord said to my Lord." So David heard conversations taking plaice in the Kingdom.

Ok, for the first couple of years after meeting the Lord, I heard almost exclusively from the Lord, but the time came when He had me start talking to and listening to angels. A knew born baby is kept well inside the house, but as it grows isn't it introduced to others. As Christians, havn't we been ministered to by angels?

If you have been growing in the Kingdom, hasn't it become obvious that the Lord is teaching even those that are ministering to you? If the Lord is always with us, and the Spirit is everywhere, like the Scriptures explain, then He wouldn't need angels to minister to us just because He could be everywhere at once. So why does He use angels as ministering spirits?

If you teach, don't you teach yourself?

He has me bring messages to others, as opposed to Him giving them Himself because I get something out of the message. So why does He have angels ministering to people?

So I learn from the Lord. And the Lord talks to me. And the Lord has me learn from Ministers, both human and angelic. And we all serve the Lord. I wouldn't ask others if they though Pastors or Priest learned from from the Lord. Those serving the Lord learn from the Lord of the Kingdom. That seem obvious, but who is listening?

Havn't you ever had an angel tell you something and explain that they were given the information from the Lord?

So what I found interesting is, that it was a question put to other Christisns, and that the responses did seem to give any indication that others were getting first hand information from angels. Why didn't anyone give first hand testimonies from angels?

"With their ears they barely hear..."

Are the Scriptures are right. Do we barely hear? Shouldn't we spend more time listening? I think this thread shows that we do need to listen more.

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit [Jn 3:8]

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

So what I found interesting is, that it was a question put to other Christisns, and that the responses did seem to give any indication that others were getting first hand information from angels. Why didn't anyone give first hand testimonies from angels?

Perhaps you may find these testimonies in threads specifically started to discuss it. This thread was established to determine what the scriptures say about angels learning and to what extent. Some may not realize the importance of angels' learning, but I believe it is very important for a number of reasons.

Thank you.

TSS

 

[Edouard]

k2k - nice post.

Sacred, why is it important for you to know the role of angels? when Christ is our saviour.

Angels - created beings. ( created to serve and worship God ). Protect us, and live among us.
Man - created beings. ( created to love God and worship Him ). Also, have free will.
demons - spiritual beings that chose to rebel against God. ( Satan being the mastermind). this demonstrates knowledge and free will.

If you were an angel, would you leave heaven?

Edouard.
May God grant us wisdom.

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

Edouard,

There are many many reasons.

1) You get to understand our Father better and see how He does things. In this case we see that God created the angels with just enough understanding to get started (how to communicate, walk, etc) and then behaved as a Father toward them and taught them what they needed to know as they needed to know it. Just as a family. This way of doing things is further demonstrated in how God established Adam. In verse 11 of Genesis 1 it says: "And God said let the land put forth vegetation - herb yielding seed fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind whose seed is within it on the land and it was so." But then we see later in Genesis 2:5 it says "Now, no bush of the field as yet was in the earth and no herb of the field as yet had sprung up - because Yahweh God had not sent rain on the earth and man was there none to till the ground but a vapor went up from the earth and watered all the face of the ground." And later in verse 8 of that chapter: "And Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden on the east and put there the man whom he had formed. And Yahweh God caused to spring up out of the ground every tree pleasant to the sight and good for food and the tree of life in the midst of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." It seems here that no plant had yet sprung up so God had to plant a Garden in Eden to support Adam and Eve. And it appears that the plants in the Garden are what spread throughout the world (as there is no further mention of God doing any more planting and man was placed there as care taker and to take dominion). So seeing these two examples we can see that God does a beginning amount work, a good foundation, and allows His creation to work with Him to accomplish the remainder. It is clear in this that He wants us to work with Him in his kingdom.

2) We get an idea of His plan. And as in point number one, if we extend it further we can see that knowing how God does things, we will be more able to cooperate with him in his kingdom. The more we know, the better we can work hand in hand with him, the more valuable to him we become. And to me this is the most important reason to get to know about how and why God does the things that He does. If you know God does a beginning work and expects us to finish it you will not become frustrated if you are expecting God to do the whole work. (This is just a general rule - God does indeed sometimes to the full work by himself!) (For examples of this look at how, in the book of Revelation, angels are more prominent - by activity - than God the Father and Jesus. And look how they interact with humans - John and others.)

3) In seeing that angels, being very powerful and capable, and standing in the presence of God, in their ignorance were still able to sin and rebel against God and it causes me to become even more cognizant of the tenuous nature of my state thereby encouraging me to be even more careful as it is written in Hebrews: "For this cause it behooves us with unwonted firmness to be holding fast unto the things that have been heard lest at any time we drift away, for if the word through angels spoken became firm and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense how shall we have escape...."

4) If it is true that angels learn, and I believe that it is because it follows a pattern, then how much time did it take for Lucifer to learn how to become the covering cherub? And then be good at it? How long did it take for him to become good at the multitude of his trade? Then how long did it take for him to become puffed up to begin to think that he could ascend to the heights of God? How long did it take for him to develop a plan that he 'thought' he could use to free himself of God and to think he could get away with it? I think it took a very long time much longer than the short time that some say it took for God to create Lucifer, Lucifer fall, and be in the Garden to tempt Adam and Eve.

There are many things to learn, even if it seems trivial it is "precept upon precept."

If I were and angel I would only leave heaven if God wanted me to. To be next to Him is the most precious thing of all - how good and how pleasant it is to dwell in the house of the Lord!"

May God indeed grant us wisdom!

TSS

PS Not a major point, but I don't think demons and angels are the same thing.