Do Aliens Exist?

SelfSim · Oct 15, 2019

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
.. So, from the muon's perspective ..

Argument relies on the untested belief that what I imagine a muon physically experiencing, is relevant to: 'the ability to accelerate a craft to near the speed of light, or to orbit near a super massive black hole', such that physical impossibilities miraculously disappear.
Untested thought experiments (hypotheticals), based on well-evidenced theories, are insufficient for assuming that such theories are applicable to the same physical contexts as the hypothetical. (Eg: QM vs Classical, etc).
'Practical engineering and resource problems' are just as dependent on (other) physical contexts, as well-evidenced theoreticals (such as SR) are. We need tested evidence in order to dispel well known physical limitations. Belief in hypotheticals isn't a particularly useful concept for achieving feasibility.

FrumiousBandersnatch · Oct 15, 2019

SelfSim said:
Argument relies on the untested belief that what I imagine a muon physically experiencing, is relevant to: 'the ability to accelerate a craft to near the speed of light, or to orbit near a super massive black hole', such that physical impossibilities miraculously disappear.

Not sure what your quibble is here - is it that muons aren't conscious?

I did add that astronauts experience the same effect on a smaller scale - assuming you subscribe to Special Relativity.

Or is it that you dispute the relativistic effects on muon lifetime relative to us?

Shemjaza · Oct 15, 2019

SelfSim said:
Hmm .. I'm aware of this.
What does this have to do with 'the ability to accelerate a craft to near the speed of light, or to orbit near a super massive black hole', such that we can rule out 'physical impossibilities' in that context?

I'll accept that they might be prohibitively impractical... but my point was that the physics is understood and supported by evidence.

steve78 · Nov 4, 2019

Joshua S said:
Hello

I've always wondered if aliens existed. Many Christians say yes while many say no. Something I just read stated many Christians believe they do as why would God create such a huge universe? The answer to that was that to our minds it's huge but to God's, probably not. However, despite this, many Christians still believe aliens could exist.

Would God have created aliens and not told us? Would He have visited each creation separately and created a Bible separate for each species?

They most certainly exist. The amount of stars and galaxies in the universe suggest its impossible for earth to be alone.

How common is life though? I think its in abundance.

SkyWriting · Nov 4, 2019

steve78 said:
They most certainly exist. The amount of stars and galaxies in the universe suggest its impossible for earth to be alone.
How common is life though? I think its in abundance.

After looking for any evidence for decades...nothing. If we went looking, man would be gone by the time we returned, empty handed.

Shemjaza · Nov 4, 2019

SkyWriting said:
After looking for any evidence for decades...nothing. If we went looking, man would be gone by the time we returned, empty handed.

But it hardly counts as looking.

I could comb every carpet fiber in my house and stare through every window... but I'd probably never see a kangaroo, (and they live in the reserve just over the hill).

SkyWriting · Nov 4, 2019

Shemjaza said:
But it hardly counts as looking.

I could comb every carpet fiber in my house and stare through every window... but I'd probably never see a kangaroo, (and they live in the reserve just over the hill).

It counts. We have an unobstructed view to nearly the beginning of time, "they" say.

Each of these shapes is a galaxy, like our milky way.

Anguspure · Nov 4, 2019

steve78 said:
They most certainly exist. The amount of stars and galaxies in the universe suggest its impossible for earth to be alone.

How common is life though? I think its in abundance.

I don't have to much of an issue with this application of the Copernican principle, because YHWH has indeed brought life into the universe, and certainly there are references to alien beings within scripture.

But I am also mindful of the references made in scripture to the particularly great value that YHWH places on the inhabitants of this planet.

It seems to me that there there is little wrong with the thought that the whole of the material Universe is what it took for YHWH to bring about the right conditions for this small blue pearl to be created from the lifeless expanse.

Shemjaza · Nov 4, 2019

SkyWriting said:
It counts. We have an unobstructed view to nearly the beginning of time, "they" say.

Each of these shapes is a galaxy, like our milky way.

Yeah, we can see across the universe... but not exactly in a granular fashion.

Check out New York City:
Central Park, New York City, seen from Top of the Rock {Explore - 16/11/2014 - Highest Position 2}

Nice clear shot... why can't i see all the squirrels? Aren't there thousands of them?

Anguspure · Nov 5, 2019

Shemjaza said:
Yeah, we can see across the universe... but not exactly in a granular fashion.

Check out New York City:
Central Park, New York City, seen from Top of the Rock {Explore - 16/11/2014 - Highest Position 2}

Nice clear shot... why can't i see all the squirrels? Aren't there thousands of them?

Curiously, I never saw a single squirrel during an hour and a half of walking through Central Park.

Shemjaza · Nov 5, 2019

Anguspure said:
Curiously, I never saw a single squirrel during an hour and a half of walking through Central Park.

You need to work on your SECR (Search for Extra Cute Rodents) protocols.

SkyWriting · Nov 5, 2019

Shemjaza said:
Yeah, we can see across the universe... but not exactly in a granular fashion.

Check out New York City:
Central Park, New York City, seen from Top of the Rock {Explore - 16/11/2014 - Highest Position 2}

Nice clear shot... why can't i see all the squirrels? Aren't there thousands of them?

A radio telescope can see though leaves so a trillion stars in the sky, does not compare to 1000 squirrels in trees.

Anguspure · Nov 5, 2019

SkyWriting said:
A radio telescope can see though leaves so a trillion stars in the sky, does not compare to 1000 squirrels in trees.

We thought they were cute, the locals (Ottawa) see them as fluffy tailed rats.

SkyWriting · Nov 5, 2019

Anguspure said:
We thought they were cute, the locals (Ottawa) see them as fluffy tailed rats.

With the same disdain as kangaroos are thought locally.

(I think they are fluffy tailed rats btw.)

Anguspure · Nov 5, 2019

SkyWriting said:
With the same disdain as kangaroos are thought locally.

(I think they are fluffy tailed rats btw.)

We don't see the Kiwi in the same way. The possum on the other hand....

FrumiousBandersnatch · Nov 5, 2019

Anguspure said:
It seems to me that there there is little wrong with the thought that the whole of the material Universe is what it took for YHWH to bring about the right conditions for this small blue pearl to be created from the lifeless expanse.

Except that practically none of it is necessary for the existence of this small blue pearl; our solar system is sufficient, our galaxy more than enough. Approximately 200 billion visible galaxies and at least 2 trillion inferred galaxies seems somewhat wasteful...

SelfSim · Nov 5, 2019

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
.. Approximately 200 billion visible galaxies and at least 2 trillion inferred galaxies seems somewhat wasteful...

How can 'wastefulness' be a valid scientific criteria where 'no purpose' (for life) is also a key assumption?

'Numbers' arguments, used in support of the belief in the existence of life elsewhere, are scientifically irrelevant in the light of there only being evidence of a singular, in-common instance of life on this planet. The only scientifically supportable position is 'unknown' (in spite of the emotionally motivated 'numbers' arguments which only rely on incredulity when it comes to imagining the contrary position).

SelfSim · Nov 5, 2019

Anguspure said:
I don't have to much of an issue with this application of the Copernican principle ..

So, some seem to think that we can invoke the Copernican Principle as the catalyst to infer the existence of exo-life, as it leads to a view that Earth is not ‘special’ or ‘privileged’. Earth contains life, therefore life will exist elsewhere in the universe, right? Extending this further, ‘the numbers’ of ‘Earth-like exo-planets’, implies that life will therefore be ‘likely’ within this population, yes?

Sounds logical, right?

The above argument is an attempted example of the Mediocrity Principle, which formally states that if an item is drawn at random from one of several sets (or categories), it's likelier to come from the most numerous category, rather than from any one of the less numerous categories. In other words: life is on Earth .. Earth is a random sample of a Copernican Principled Universe, thus via this principle, it is ‘likely’ there’ll be Earth-like life elsewhere.

Unfortunately, this attempt fails on several counts.

First of all, there is no knowledge about the characteristics of the population, (in this case the existence or non-existence of life in the Universe). Secondly, the only sample comes from Earth which is not a random sample. Arguing that life on Earth supports the existence of life in the Universe, becomes a circular statement because the Mediocrity Principle has been reversed, and it is now claimed that the characteristic of the non-random sample, determines the dominating characteristic of the population, rather than the other way around.

The fallacy lies in the circular statement.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 5, 2019

Joshua S said:
Hello

I've always wondered if aliens existed. Many Christians say yes while many say no. Something I just read stated many Christians believe they do as why would God create such a huge universe? The answer to that was that to our minds it's huge but to God's, probably not. However, despite this, many Christians still believe aliens could exist.

Would God have created aliens and not told us? Would He have visited each creation separately and created a Bible separate for each species?

No. There is sufficient evidence/ statements in God's Word to know/realize (God Willing) that He did not create "aliens" in outer space.

durangodawood · Nov 5, 2019

SelfSim said:
How can 'wastefulness' be a valid scientific criteria where 'no purpose' (for life) is also a key assumption?....

Its not supposed to be scientific.

Its theological: appealing to reasoning about the (stipulated) mind and motives of God.

Do Aliens Exist?

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