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DNA preserves the integrity of its program

PsychoSarah

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Because they are not there and then they are (and by the way, synapsids are another man made classification that actually by definition already includes mammals)
-_- if the distinction between mammal and reptile is so obvious in all fossils, then you should be able to easily tell which of these fossils I post are mammals, and which are reptiles.
By the way, syapsid refers to the earliest mammals as well as NON-MAMMAL groups more closely related to mammals than other living amniotes. There are plenty of reptiles in that group.





Pfft, you say that as if fossils are the best evidence for evolution, and as if we would expect to find every intermediate fossil for every modern species. We thought coelacanths were extinct because there is a huge gap in the fossil record from millions of years ago to now, despite them being an existing taxa today. Some organisms just didn't live in places suited to fossil formation. Plenty had body structures unsuited to fossil formation. Fragile bones and soft tissues do not make for good fossils even in environments in which animals with thick bones fossilize easily.

Additionally, I have to ask what your point was in referencing bats? Your argument is refuted as long as there is at least 1 fossil record complete enough to show a somewhat gradual transition from one major animal group to another. We have that for mammals and reptiles, as well as for fish and amphibians. An incomplete fossil record for bats does not help you, since everyone knows that the majority of species never leave behind fossils, and plenty that did remain undiscovered. The bat intermediate you claim could not possibly have existed because there aren't any fossils for it could be discovered next week. It's made additionally pointless by the fact that DNA similarities and modern evolution experiments are the best evidence for evolution, and all fossils do now is help with evolutionary history.
 
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pshun2404

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Thanks for the small book of standard run of the mill rhetoric Sarah...it would take a larger one to reply to all (much of which I 100% agree with). Your summation closed with "What persists in a population is not the organism with the fewest mutations, but the one which manages to make what it has work. What survives and reproduces successfully persists, no more, no less. This is why there are so many physical flaws in living things which persist; they simply weren't detrimental enough NOT to persist." Which I also agree with (though not solidly with the final statement). It is largely about adaptation and success...but still with such a proactive system of self-correction and preservation (produced by the coding for these proteins, i.e., the enzymes involved), it still seems highly unlikely that random mutation could cause such changes as the transmutation of organisms into all together different organisms. But thanks for responding...
 
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Speedwell

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What do you mean by "altogether different?" All organisms are basically sacks of eukaryotic cells in different arrangements. What's the difference?
 
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Subduction Zone

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That is quite the strawman. The theory of evolution never has the "transmutation of organisms into totally different organisms".

I think that we have been through this before. All of your descendants will be human. But let's look at your ancestors. You share a common ancestor with chimpanzees. That ancestor was an ape. The chimpanzee is an ape and you are still an ape. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with cats. That ancestor was a mammal. The cat is a mammal. You are a mammal. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with fish. That ancestor was a vertebrate, all fish are vertebrates, you are a vertebrate. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with squids. That ancestor is a member of anamalia. The squid is a member, and so are you. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

You share a common ancestor with a banana. That ancestor was a eucaryote. You are a eucaryote. No "transmutation into a totally different organism".

The differences got greater over many millions of years, but your description of what happens in evolution is simply wrong.
 
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pshun2404

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Sarah points out_-syapsid refers to the earliest mammals as well as NON-MAMMAL groups more closely related to mammals than other living amniotes. There are plenty of reptiles in that group.

Thanks for making my point it was indeed a poor example.

And though the result of many tangents leading away from the topic the point with the bats (like triops canciformus and many others) is that the evidence for sudden appearance is equally strong as for possible transition. The first forms (first birds, first fish, first mammals...) all show themselves as not being there and then they are (that is, in the fossil record) nut as you rightly point out that is not the only examples we interpret as evidence.

As J. Scott Turner admits in The Tinkerer's Accomplice:

"even the best established scientific principle contains, at its heart, something of a political consensus: we all will agree that principle X must be true...” and that “we enforce the consensus in many ways: by indoctrination of students, by systems of rewards and punishments”, which he defines ultimately to include funding for research! He says that within this process is the tendency for the “pernicious assumption to become unquestioned dogma.”

IMO this is the truth and so opens interpretation of evidence to being responsibly and critically questioned among those who see the same evidence as possibly indicating something not readily accepted by the majority.

Herein lays the major difficulty for thinkers like me, whether we are speaking theistically or biologically. For me consensus of opinion (regardless of the alleged authority of the group who’s pernicious assumptions are taken as dogmatic) is an inadequate defense. Whether it is millions of Catholics, Buddhists, or Darwinians who are insisting they are right, I am not impressed. For me they are just products or victims of the indoctrination and punishment reward system, not much more, leaving me open to question and reasons for and against any and all positions I find questionable.
 
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pshun2404

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What do you mean by "altogether different?" All organisms are basically sacks of eukaryotic cells in different arrangements. What's the difference?

Can you tell the difference between fish and birds? How about the difference between reptiles and mammals? It is that obvious from the observable facts....
 
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Speedwell

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Can you tell the difference between fish and birds? How about the difference between reptiles and mammals? It is that obvious from the observable facts....
Of course there are observable differences. I'm asking you what makes them "altogether different." There are many basic physiological similarities as well. Would you say that a little castle made of legos was "altogether different" from a little house made of the same legos?
 
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pshun2404

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Evolution is right, the default hypothesis I like to call "the ancestor of the gaps" is wrong (and not by any means proven to be true).
 
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pshun2404

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Comparing living systems to legos? Really? Wow...yeah we are all made of molecules....

Oh that's right so are rocks...we must be rocks...

Not very sound logic...we are altogether different!
 
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Speedwell

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Comparing living systems to legos? Really? Wow...yeah we are all made of molecules....

Oh that's right so are rocks...we must be rocks...

Not very sound logic...we are altogether different!
Be snarky if you like--we are used to it--but you still have not explained why mammals are altogether different from reptiles.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Sorry, I'll try to keep my responses shorter. You are always free to highlight and back space any content you agree with rather than quote my entire post.

As for mutation creating "different" organisms... categories such as "species" are entirely human constructs and are not entirely accurate representations of living things due to the fact that population genetics are continuously changing. However, we have observed drastic changes in physiology due to mutation, as well as groups of organisms in the transition stage at which they are beginning to be unable to reproduce with each other. But, as to how changes in genes alter organisms, I bet you'll like this Chicken grows face of dinosaur

There have been recent studies into the relevance of viruses in evolution, and I would highly recommend looking into it. After all, many viruses insert themselves into DNA and, when they do, the mechanisms by which errors in DNA are fixed often can't remove them, resulting in huge mutations. Where viruses insert themselves isn't random and can interfere with genes.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Evolution is right, the default hypothesis I like to call "the ancestor of the gaps" is wrong (and not by any means proven to be true).
-_- we find plenty of intermediate fossils for other organisms, such as horses. Why assume these didn't exist for bats just because of the lack of fossils? If, say, horses evolved gradually over time, why wouldn't bats have experienced the same? Furthermore, you are ignoring the genetic evidence for evolution entirely. If bats didn't share ancestry with any other mammal groups, there'd be no reason for sharing so many of the same genes (especially not with how redundant codons are, you can get traits such as fur from a multitude of different base pair combinations, if one wished to create an organism from scratch with that trait).
 
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pshun2404

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Be snarky if you like--we are used to it--but you still have not explained why mammals are altogether different from reptiles.

I was not being snarky at all. I was applying the exact same logic you did. Do I really need to list the multitude of differences between mammals and reptiles?
 
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Speedwell

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I was not being snarky at all. I was applying the exact same logic you did. Do I really need to list the multitude of differences between mammals and reptiles?
It doesn't matter, because as long as can list similarities (and there are many) they are not altogether different.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I was not being snarky at all. I was applying the exact same logic you did. Do I really need to list the multitude of differences between mammals and reptiles?
There are far more similarities than differences in the physiology of vertebrates.

I have multiple images of pancreatic tissue of two different species. You don't need to be able to tell me what species these are, but try to separate the images into two groups, with all in each group belonging to the same species. You can just use the numbers to refer each image by (bottom left of image).

1.




2.


3.

4.
 
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pshun2404

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It doesn't matter, because as long as can list similarities (and there are many) they are not altogether different.

Semantics! Why make such an issue out of this word when you clearly understood what I was speaking of (but cannot admit). Yes we ARE all made of elements from the periodic table (yawn!), all made of molecules, and so on with more applications of set theory.
 
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Speedwell

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So since we agree that there are differences and similarities between reptiles and mammals, what particular difference(s) were you thinking of when you said they were "altogether" different such that one could not evolve into the other?
 
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Speedwell

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To nit pick each and every instance of what would be involved in each individual case (like fish scales, turning into Amphibian skin, and so on down the line to mammalian skin) is a giant waste of time and a diversion from the point.
Which is...? Some of those things are well understood, and are not the vast qualitative changes you seem to be contemplating.
 
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pshun2404

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Which is...? Some of those things are well understood, and are not the vast qualitative changes you seem to be contemplating.

Well it seems reasonable to me that the program inherent in the embryo of fish (for example) assures the end result of the early manifest genome (that in the end it will become a fish with appropriate scales, gills, fins, and so on). The genes that assure these very specific end results can be effected (mostly detrimentally) but in the end the result is some form of that fish that the DNA's unfolding stored information is there to produce. The same is true for birds, mammals, and so on.

The same is true for the genome of amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and so on...the function of preservation of the genomes integrity (the error correction mechanisms and processes) specific to the pre-coded end result (an adult fish or amphibian or reptile) with all its specific systems, organs, and form would not allow so many changes (even over vast lengths of time) to form an amphibian from fish and so on.

The systems and processes that assure every embryonic fish will become an adult FISH remains constant. When errors arise which remain, some of these may cause variance (or deformity) and the variety causing factors (genetic and environmental) may influence form but essentially it will always result in ONLY a variety of fish.
 
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