Divorce

Gremlins · Jan 4, 2009

Autumnleaf said:
Yes, we should.

Have you ever noticed that annoying churches like the one Fred Phelps runs never seems to ask for money or assistance of any kind?

Its because he is in-line with God. Cash isn't an issue for him like it is for the sniveling smacks who cater to gay and divorced people.

That is probably the powder keg you needed to start this thread but I think its apt and accurate. I don't know or understand God in most ways. However, it seems that those who take on the more extreme views God has do not need to fear for funding. Take that as what you will.

Not at all true. The reasons Fred Phelps doesn't care about funding are:

1. He's too busy thinking about men doinking each other to consider something like money.
2. His church is pathetically small and made up almost entirely of family members who probably pay for their own 'God hates Homos/America/Sweden/Soldiers/Elmo' placards aswell as the bus fair to soldiers' funerals.

And anyway, the Catholic church is reasonably moderate, if very conservative (in the literal, not backwards American sense of the word), and it's not exactly hard up for cash is it?

Braunwyn · Jan 4, 2009

Autumnleaf said:
Homosexuality is mentioned in NT <staff edit>. 'For they will not partake in the kingdom of God...'

A dolt calling someone a dolt. That's just great.

Leave your political correctness at the doorway and read the Bible <staff edit>. You can not serve two masters. Women are not men...

Come again? Aren't you in Jersey? Lay off the tap water AL.

MaxP · Jan 4, 2009

Open said:
Hi Folks,

I have seen this issue raised under other OPs and I would like to raise a specific issue.

Christ specifically says that those who remarry after divorcing comit adultery. (No ands, no ifs, no buts).
This means that a great many Christians who have remarried whilst their first spouse is still alive are comitting adultery.
If these Christians are to truly repent they must surely annul/repent of their second marriage and live as single persons (or in unlikely circumstances they could of course go back to the original spouse).
Failure to do so leaves such Christians is a continuing state of adultery.
Is it not also then fair to conclude that such christians are living in sin and if we are to take St Paul's words to heart, those that live in sin without prepenting should be denied fellowship??? ( I cannot find the verse, little help please??)

It is a toughie, but I've seen this question drop off the face of the thread board in the past or get hijacked by persons who think the thread is linked to homosexuality somehow. It is not. I do not want to discuss that issue.

I would like to discuss why we allow those who are unrepentingly guilty of adultery to continue to worship in our churches. It seems to me that this is the elephant in the room of Christian morality nowadays. If we are to protect the institution of marriage shouldn't we follow this one through....????

Once someone gets married, they can't divorce.

An annulment means there never was a valid marriage. People who have had annulments can marry, and it will be for the first time.

Open · Jan 4, 2009

What of the scriptural basis for adulterers being allowed continue worship in churches??? Is it too much to ask?
No. - but you put the cart ahead of the horse
Please explain.
__________________________________
If one remains married to a second or subsequent spouse whilst the first is alive one commits adultery.
Here is an assumption.
Not really- Christs words state same.
__________________________________
Surely to remain married to a second spouse and remain in fellowship with other believers is not truly repenting?
A logical response to your assumption
If we are to take Christs words at face value-then yes it is a logical conclusion.

If, not, what is the biblical basis for continuing to sin willfully as opposed to the sin followed by truly repent cycle.
Seriously anyone got a scriptural angle on this one?
I believe you need to show a scriptural grounding for your assumption

I already have. 3 verses directly quoted from the mouth of Jesus as written in the Gospels. It is not an assumption. There is scriptural grounding.
I have yet to see a scriptural grounding for the opposite argument. That is what I have asked for, but I am intrigued that nobody so far can seem to give any.

MethodMan · Jan 4, 2009

Open said:
What of the scriptural basis for adulterers being allowed continue worship in churches??? Is it too much to ask?
No. - but you put the cart ahead of the horse
Please explain.
__________________________________
If one remains married to a second or subsequent spouse whilst the first is alive one commits adultery.
Here is an assumption.
Not really- Christs words state same.

You should read the words more carefully. Then, rememder the rest of scripture. Is divorce a sin or not?

__________________________________
Surely to remain married to a second spouse and remain in fellowship with other believers is not truly repenting?
A logical response to your assumption
If we are to take Christs words at face value-then yes it is a logical conclusion.

words at face value are not the basis for your argument. Remarriage is a sin, yes. But so would the second divorce - your remedy to be allowed to worship?

If, not, what is the biblical basis for continuing to sin willfully as opposed to the sin followed by truly repent cycle.
Seriously anyone got a scriptural angle on this one?
I believe you need to show a scriptural grounding for your assumption

I already have. 3 verses directly quoted from the mouth of Jesus as written in the Gospels. It is not an assumption. There is scriptural grounding.
I have yet to see a scriptural grounding for the opposite argument. That is what I have asked for, but I am intrigued that nobody so far can seem to give any.

Genesis chapter 2

Open · Jan 5, 2009

My understanding of scripture:
Divorve = Adultery
Adultery = Sin
Divorce = Sin

You bring up a good point regarding a second divorce. A sin.
But then so is adultery.

So we seem to havea situation here where you choose between a 2nd divorce (a once off) that would allow you not to live as an adulterer or avoiding divorce but remaining in a state of adultery. Alternatively an annullment of the seond marriage (assuming the first was legit). It has been argued that a second marriage is not recognised by some Christian churches as the first is still seen to be the one and only.
It would seem to me that perhaps divorce or an annulment of the second marriage (in the church) would be the lesser of the two evils here.

As for Genises Adam gets himself a wife. Good stuff, but I do not see the link between what we are talking about and same......You might want to spell this one out..

CreedIsChrist · Jan 5, 2009

Washington said:
Interestingly, conservative Christians were found to have a much higher divorce rate than Atheists and Agnostics, and non-denominational evangelical Christians had a higher divorce rate than other Christians.

The slogan: "The family that prays together, stays together" is well known. There has been much anecdotal evidence that has led to "unsubstantiated claims that the divorce rate for Christians who attended church regularly, pray together or who meet other conditions is only 1 or 2 percent". 8 Emphasis ours]. Dr. Tom Ellis, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention's Council on the Family said that for "...born-again Christian couples who marry...in the church after having received premarital counseling...and attend church regularly and pray daily together..." experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages -- or 0.00256 percent. 9

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:

* 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
* 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
* Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."

Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:
Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced.

Non-denominational ** 34%
Baptists.................... 29%
Mainline Protestants ..25%
Mormons ..................24%
Catholics................... 21%
Lutherans.................. 21%

** Barna uses the term "non-denominational" to refer to Evangelical Christian congregations that are not affiliated with a specific denomination. The vast majority are fundamentalist in their theological beliefs.

source

Make of this what you will.

Oh yes, the relevant scripture.

Matthew 19:9 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Mark10:11-12 11 [Jesus] answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

That study only shows America though. And American women have much higher divorce rates than the average woman.

Mahoney, A., Pargament, K.I., Jewell, T., Swank, A.B., Scott, E., Emery, E.,
& Rye, M. (1999). Marriage and the spiritual realm: The role of proximal
and distal religious constructs in marital functioning. Journal of Family
Psychology, 13 (3), 321-338.
Abstract: Ninety-seven couples completed questionnaires about their
involvement in joint religious activities and perceptions regarding the
sanctification of marriage, including perceived sacred qualities of marriage
and beliefs about the manifestation of God in marriage. In contrast to
individual religiousness and religious homogamy (distal religious
constructs), these proximal religious variables directly reflect an
integration of religion and marriage, and were consistently associated with
greater global marital adjustment, more perceived benefits from marriage,
decreased marital conflict, more verbal collaboration, and less use of
verbal aggression and stalemate to discuss disagreements for both wives and
husbands. The proximal measures also added substantial unique variance (R2
.08-.49) to specific aspects of marital functioning after controlling
demographic factors and distal religious variables in hierarchical
regression analyses.

http://www.divorcereform.org/stats.html

Check out the stats on that page. In the religion page. Sometimes the links can be dead for a while and you have to wait. there is a page showing what to do if the link died.

Its funny cause I have found studys that show liberals have the highest rates of divorce with conservatives and Catholics being at the lowest.

Also the countrys with the lowest divorce rates are Eastern orthodox.

And yes people who are divorced and remarried are currently living in a state of adultry according to Christ's saying in Matthew.

Washington · Jan 5, 2009

CreedIsChrist said:
That study only shows America though. And American women have much higher divorce rates than the average woman.

While the divorce rates (the raw percentage of divorces) are higher in the USA, it's the distribution of those numbers that's the point here. "Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience," and "born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce."

MethodMan · Jan 5, 2009

Open said:
My understanding of scripture:
Divorve = Adultery
Adultery = Sin
Divorce = Sin

You bring up a good point regarding a second divorce. A sin.
But then so is adultery.

So we seem to havea situation here where you choose between a 2nd divorce (a once off) that would allow you not to live as an adulterer or avoiding divorce but remaining in a state of adultery.

But where is yur Biblical support for this "state" of adultry?

Alternatively an annullment of the seond marriage (assuming the first was legit). It has been argued that a second marriage is not recognised by some Christian churches as the first is still seen to be the one and only.
It would seem to me that perhaps divorce or an annulment of the second marriage (in the church) would be the lesser of the two evils here.

But that would be Man talking. I will admit that there are some Churches hold the stance that any remarriage would be a "state" of being. So is greed, apathy and judgementalism. I would bet these are present in most of these same Churches, yet not held to the same standard.

As for Genises Adam gets himself a wife. Good stuff, but I do not see the link between what we are talking about and same......You might want to spell this one out..

Sin is Sin. For any Church to start labling one worse that the other has ignore the Bible's totality about Sin. It is about self-justifiaction and ignores Grace.

Rudolph Hucker · Jan 16, 2009

So where does this bit fit?

Deuteronomy 24
1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

CCGirl · Jan 18, 2009

I kinda like the Catholic version of divorce........you can be married for years, have children together, then ........annulment! Slate is wiped clean!

Rudolph Hucker · Jan 28, 2009

Rudolph Hucker said:
So where does this bit fit?

Deuteronomy 24
1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

I re-pose the question.

ErinBear · Jan 30, 2009

In my opion if someone has already left there other half and finds some one who is better and treats them better and wants to get married and promise never to go back him or her old self again then go ahead. And if they ask god for forgiveness and what they have done then i say go head.

b&wpac4 · Jan 30, 2009

Rudolph Hucker said:
I re-pose the question.

Didn't you know that the Old Testament only applies if it goes against people that are not liked?

CreedIsChrist · Jan 30, 2009

Rudolph Hucker said:
So where does this bit fit?

it was written because of the hardness of the Jews hearts as Christ tells us. But as Jesus said "from the begining it was not so".

CreedIsChrist · Jan 30, 2009

CCGirl said:
I kinda like the Catholic version of divorce........you can be married for years, have children together, then ........annulment! Slate is wiped clean!

An annulment is a decision that the first marriage was never valid in the first place. Not anyone can just get an annulment. Chances are if you have kids and were married validly an annulment is not possible(except in cases if you were coerced into marrying in the first place) If the first marriage if valid then you cannot get an annulment. One of the big reasons that started the reformation during the time when King Herny VIII couldn't get his annulment because his marriage to Catherine was valid.

b&wpac4 · Jan 30, 2009

CreedIsChrist said:
it was written because of the hardness of the Jews hearts as Christ tells us. But as Jesus said "from the begining it was not so".

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Isn't the Christian position that the Bible is the word of God? Are you suggesting that the Old Testament is no longer the word of God, but a fraud or forgery?

CreedIsChrist · Jan 30, 2009

b&wpac4 said:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Isn't the Christian position that the Bible is the word of God? Are you suggesting that the Old Testament is no longer the word of God, but a fraud or forgery?

Of course not. It is God's word. But it was written because of the hardness of the Jews hearts.

Then some Pharisees came up and as a test began to ask him whether it was permissible for a husband to divorce his wife. In reply he said, "What command did Moses give you? They answered, "Moses permitted divorce and the writing of a decree of divorce." But Jesus told them: "He wrote that commandment for you because of your stubbornness. At the beginning of creation God made them male and female; for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become as one. They are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore let no man separate what God has joined." Back in the house again, the disciples began to question him about this. He told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and the woman who divorces her husband and marries another commits adultery." - Mark 10:2

b&wpac4 · Jan 30, 2009

CreedIsChrist said:
Of course not. It is God's word. But it was written because of the hardness of the Jews hearts.

Then some Pharisees came up and as a test began to ask him whether it was permissible for a husband to divorce his wife. In reply he said, "What command did Moses give you? They answered, "Moses permitted divorce and the writing of a decree of divorce." But Jesus told them: "He wrote that commandment for you because of your stubbornness. At the beginning of creation God made them male and female; for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and the two shall become as one. They are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore let no man separate what God has joined." Back in the house again, the disciples began to question him about this. He told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and the woman who divorces her husband and marries another commits adultery." - Mark 10:2

So God backs down sometimes on his commandments if we are stubborn enough?

Polycarp_fan · Jan 30, 2009

b&wpac4 said:
Didn't you know that the Old Testament only applies if it goes against people that are not liked?

Do you realize how many Hebrew/Israelites died in the desert wandering around?

A people set apart as God's own?

Ever seen a map of that area?

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