Divorce

[Open]

Hi Folks,

I have seen this issue raised under other OPs and I would like to raise a specific issue.

Christ specifically says that those who remarry after divorcing comit adultery. (No ands, no ifs, no buts).
This means that a great many Christians who have remarried whilst their first spouse is still alive are comitting adultery.
If these Christians are to truly repent they must surely annul/repent of their second marriage and live as single persons (or in unlikely circumstances they could of course go back to the original spouse).
Failure to do so leaves such Christians is a continuing state of adultery.
Is it not also then fair to conclude that such christians are living in sin and if we are to take St Paul's words to heart, those that live in sin without prepenting should be denied fellowship??? ( I cannot find the verse, little help please??)

It is a toughie, but I've seen this question drop off the face of the thread board in the past or get hijacked by persons who think the thread is linked to homosexuality somehow. It is not. I do not want to discuss that issue.

I would like to discuss why we allow those who are unrepentingly guilty of adultery to continue to worship in our churches. It seems to me that this is the elephant in the room of Christian morality nowadays. If we are to protect the institution of marriage shouldn't we follow this one through....????

 

[JustMeSee]

I agree that divorced women should never remarry. If they do marry they should be removed from the church.

 

[OphidiaPhile]

Hi Folks,

I have seen this issue raised under other OPs and I would like to raise a specific issue.

Christ specifically says that those who remarry after divorcing comit adultery. (No ands, no ifs, no buts).
This means that a great many Christians who have remarried whilst their first spouse is still alive are comitting adultery.
If these Christians are to truly repent they must surely annul/repent of their second marriage and live as single persons (or in unlikely circumstances they could of course go back to the original spouse).
Failure to do so leaves such Christians is a continuing state of adultery.
Is it not also then fair to conclude that such christians are living in sin and if we are to take St Paul's words to heart, those that live in sin without prepenting should be denied fellowship??? ( I cannot find the verse, little help please??)

It is a toughie, but I've seen this question drop off the face of the thread board in the past or get hijacked by persons who think the thread is linked to homosexuality somehow. It is not. I do not want to discuss that issue.

I would like to discuss why we allow those who are unrepentingly guilty of adultery to continue to worship in our churches. It seems to me that this is the elephant in the room of Christian morality nowadays. If we are to protect the institution of marriage shouldn't we follow this one through....????

Marriage is not a religious institution and therefore is not yours to protect or otherwise.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Hi Folks,

I have seen this issue raised under other OPs and I would like to raise a specific issue.

Christ specifically says that those who remarry after divorcing comit adultery. (No ands, no ifs, no buts).
This means that a great many Christians who have remarried whilst their first spouse is still alive are comitting adultery.

Although I completely applaud your conservative views, you'll have to prove your positions.

If these Christians are to truly repent they must surely annul/repent of their second marriage and live as single persons (or in unlikely circumstances they could of course go back to the original spouse).

If they truly repent, and are truly forgiven, then they have no more sins at all to be recognized.

Failure to do so leaves such Christians is a continuing state of adultery.

Where does scripture say that?

Is it not also then fair to conclude that such Christians are living in sin and if we are to take St Paul's words to heart, those that live in sin without prepenting should be denied fellowship??? ( I cannot find the verse, little help please??)

Yes, Christians that do not repent should be avoided.

You do understand the condition of a person once they have repented of their sins don't you?

It is a toughie, but I've seen this question drop off the face of the thread board in the past or get hijacked by persons who think the thread is linked to homosexuality somehow. It is not. I do not want to discuss that issue.

It is (and you know it) and good, we won't.

I would like to discuss why we allow those who are unrepentingly guilty of adultery to continue to worship in our churches.

Who is the "we" in whom you reference? I've never seen a Bible-affirming conservtive Church not preach repentance and forgiveness?

It seems to me that this is the elephant in the room of Christian morality nowadays.

"These days????" When has Christian truth been altered except in liberal theology and other heretical practices? When has adultery and divorce been treated with political correctness and social reengineeering as we see in liberal and progressive actions?

If we are to protect the institution of marriage shouldn't we follow this one through....????

If you keep on your path (well actually Jesus's path huh), you will arrive at marriage as a man and a woman, and keeping that marriage intact is immutable.

Guess who you're gunna tick off?

It won't be Bible-believing conservative Christians.

 

[Open]

Ophildiaphile - Indeed, marriage transcends a great many religions and those of no religion. In this thread I am talking of the Christian view of marriage.
The question I address is to those who would hold that Christian marriage and morality should be defined by scripture, hence the framework outlined and the forum engaged.
I am not intererested in addressing this definition of adultery from other world views, or at least not in this thread. I am meerly raising questions of those who are 'Bible Believing Christians'. Perhaps I should have stated this from the outset.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

What about the unbelieving spouse leaving and therefore being divorced from?

Jesus never mentions this at all, and gives no "out" for it. But Paul, in his Torah knowledge does.

Isn't the Gospel message about repentance and forgiveness?

 

[Open]

Originally Posted by Open
Hi Folks,

I have seen this issue raised under other OPs and I would like to raise a specific issue.

Christ specifically says that those who remarry after divorcing commit adultery. (No ands, no ifs, no buts).
This means that a great many Christians who have remarried whilst their first spouse is still alive are committing adultery.

Although I completely applaud your conservative views, you'll have to prove your positions.
I did not say whether they were my views or not, but merely my understanding of scripture as it is written. There are differing views. Hence my posing of the question(s)?
I paraphrase:
Mat 5:32 – (divorce your wife except for marital unfaithfulness (does not say on the part of who)) – you cause her to commit adultery – along with any other person who may marry her thereafter.
Mk 5:10 & 11 Man/woman divorces wife and marries another he commits adultery. (No mention of marital unfaithfulness there)
Lk 16:18 – Man divorces and marries another commits adultery. Man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Again no mention of marital unfaithfulness)

If they truly repent, and are truly forgiven, then they have no more sins at all to be recognized. – True repentance is surely not deliberately continuing in a state of adultery. This unlike other sins where we fall in to temptation is very controllable.


Failure to do so leaves such Christians is a continuing state of adultery.
Where does scripture say that? – A matter of simple logic.
Is it not also then fair to conclude that such Christians are living in sin and if we are to take St Paul's words to heart, those that live in sin without repenting should be denied fellowship??? ( I cannot find the verse, little help please??)
Yes, Christians that do not repent should be avoided.

You do understand the condition of a person once they have repented of their sins don't you? – This well debated matter is perhaps not the issue, rather the definition of what it is to repent….which includes the amendments to ones way of life…and whether one truly has repented.
Unlike the regular sin, repent cycle, this is something one can exercise control over. You don’t wake up (rarely anyway) and say, ‘oh dear, it seems I was tempted and got married again… do’h!’.
By the same logic, one can go on sinning as normal once saved without consequence. Thus making a nonsense of 1 Cor 6:9 – where adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom. – If I recall correctly it is not the only verse that speaks of same- (I also realize it goes on to speak of justification, and that you can actually do anything you so please – again I paraphrase very liberally) ... I am curious for a simple interpretation.
I would like to discuss why we allow those who are unrepentingly guilty of adultery to continue to worship in our churches.
Who is the "we" in whom you reference? I've never seen a Bible-affirming conservative Church not preach repentance and forgiveness? - see above.
It seems to me that this is the elephant in the room of Christian morality nowadays.
"These days????" When has Christian truth been altered except in liberal theology and other heretical practices? When has adultery and divorce been treated with political correctness and social reengineeering as we see in liberal and progressive actions?
Christians have re-engineered the truth in many ways to suit themselves. Slavery anyone??? I think this is a sidetrack from the main issue.
If we are to protect the institution of marriage shouldn't we follow this one through....????
If you keep on your path (well actually Jesus's path huh), you will arrive at marriage as a man and a woman, and keeping that marriage intact is immutable. – Again a little sidetrack to the issue at hand in the OP.

Guess who you're gunna tick off?
It won't be Bible-believing conservative Christians.
Depends on whose interpretation you take…J

 

[Open]

Isn't the Gospel message about repentance and forgiveness?

Absolutely. But I want to play devil's advocate here. (I can gurantee you there are people kept awake at night by inner turmoil over such issues). Why not ask the hard questions?

 

[JustMeSee]

This is the way I see it:

Matthew 19:9 (King James Version)
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

 

[Washington]

Interestingly, conservative Christians were found to have a much higher divorce rate than Atheists and Agnostics, and non-denominational evangelical Christians had a higher divorce rate than other Christians.

The slogan: "The family that prays together, stays together" is well known. There has been much anecdotal evidence that has led to "unsubstantiated claims that the divorce rate for Christians who attended church regularly, pray together or who meet other conditions is only 1 or 2 percent". 8 Emphasis ours]. Dr. Tom Ellis, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention's Council on the Family said that for "...born-again Christian couples who marry...in the church after having received premarital counseling...and attend church regularly and pray daily together..." experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages -- or 0.00256 percent. 9

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:

* 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
* 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
* Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
​

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."
​

Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:
Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced.

Non-denominational ** 34%
Baptists.................... 29%
Mainline Protestants ..25%
Mormons ..................24%
Catholics................... 21%
Lutherans.................. 21%
​

** Barna uses the term "non-denominational" to refer to Evangelical Christian congregations that are not affiliated with a specific denomination. The vast majority are fundamentalist in their theological beliefs.

source
​

Make of this what you will.

Oh yes, the relevant scripture.

Matthew 19:9 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Mark10:11-12 11 [Jesus] answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
​

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Interestingly, conservative Christians were found to have a much higher divorce rate than Atheists and Agnostics, and non-denominational evangelical Christians had a higher divorce rate than other Christians.

The slogan: "The family that prays together, stays together" is well known. There has been much anecdotal evidence that has led to "unsubstantiated claims that the divorce rate for Christians who attended church regularly, pray together or who meet other conditions is only 1 or 2 percent". 8 Emphasis ours]. Dr. Tom Ellis, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention's Council on the Family said that for "...born-again Christian couples who marry...in the church after having received premarital counseling...and attend church regularly and pray daily together..." experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages -- or 0.00256 percent. 9

A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:

* 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
* 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
* Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
​

George Barna, president and founder of Barna Research Group, commented:

"While it may be alarming to discover that born again Christians are more likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in place for quite some time. Even more disturbing, perhaps, is that when those individuals experience a divorce many of them feel their community of faith provides rejection rather than support and healing. But the research also raises questions regarding the effectiveness of how churches minister to families. The ultimate responsibility for a marriage belongs to the husband and wife, but the high incidence of divorce within the Christian community challenges the idea that churches provide truly practical and life-changing support for marriages."
​

Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:
Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate) % who have been divorced.

Non-denominational ** 34%
Baptists.................... 29%
Mainline Protestants ..25%
Mormons ..................24%
Catholics................... 21%
Lutherans.................. 21%
​

** Barna uses the term "non-denominational" to refer to Evangelical Christian congregations that are not affiliated with a specific denomination. The vast majority are fundamentalist in their theological beliefs.

source
​

Make of this what you will.

Oh yes, the relevant scripture.

Matthew 19:9 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Mark10:11-12 11 [Jesus] answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
​

Hmm, how many non and anti Christians live together non married, do all the stuff married people do and then split up? No divorce records kept in that case. Even when kids are invloved. And there are lot's and lot's and lot's of children these days with their mom's last name, because their mother and father were not "married."

You put those numbers into the dissolution equation and things look a whole lot different.

But, in regards to Biblical truth, I like the conservative truth of the matter in the OP.

 

[Open]

Interesting points by washington....and reply by polycarp - I would point out that relationships not involving marriage are not the issue here. There are many without the Christian view of marriage who are still married with their own belief as to the value of marriage etc.
Single mothers (who may be Christian or otherwise) similarly fall outside what I wished to raise in this thread.

Let me ask another way. In light of the verses quoted, how does one justify allowing those in a state of divorce and remarriage remain within the church?

 

[Rudolph Hucker]

A least one mainstream protestant church would not exist at all were it not for divorce.

 

[lisah]

Is it not also then fair to conclude that such christians are living in sin...

According to biblical standards aren't all christians living in sin, and will be until they are resurrected in perfection?



It seems to me that Jesus was working within the guidelines of the law at the time, and a majority of that was (in my opinion) to protect the womans status within the community.

Marriages were frequently arranged at that time, unlike what we know today. I don't think that all those standards are applicable today because of the rights that more women have.

I think that one must never forget to consider societal changes when it comes to certain scripture.



When I read things like this it always reminds me of when Jesus would rebuke the Jewish leaders for their narrowness. Maybe that is my own misunderstanding of scripture though. *shrugs*

 

[lawtonfogle]

Hmm, how many non and anti Christians live together non married, do all the stuff married people do and then split up? No divorce records kept in that case. Even when kids are invloved. And there are lot's and lot's and lot's of children these days with their mom's last name, because their mother and father were not "married."

You put those numbers into the dissolution equation and things look a whole lot different.

But, in regards to Biblical truth, I like the conservative truth of the matter in the OP.

You are right that a cohabitation slit up being included would change this study, by how much I am not sure, but currently cohabitation is rare recognized as a form of living seperate from being single, at least officially so (say on the census). At the same time though, there are probably many cohabiting couples among Christians too.

 

[lawtonfogle]

This is the way I see it:

Matthew 19:9 (King James Version)
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Does the same reply in reverse?

 

[KCKID]

The Bible (not me, because I don't care) is quite specific about divorce and remarriage. Divorce is generally a no-no and remarriage is tantamount to adultery, no ifs, ands, or buts.

As for PC_F and his questionable response concerning repentence and forgiveness ...if someone is TRULY repentent then they will annul the second marriage (or third, etc) and either go back to their original partner or remain celibate for life. According to the Bible one does not repent and continue on in sin. Even a 6 year-old would work that out. But, THAT is what PC_F is advocating ...repent and receive forgiveness but still continue in adultery anyway.

Have you ANY clue as to what you're talking about most of the time, PC_F?

 

[Autumnleaf]

Hi Folks,

I have seen this issue raised under other OPs and I would like to raise a specific issue.

Christ specifically says that those who remarry after divorcing comit adultery. (No ands, no ifs, no buts).
This means that a great many Christians who have remarried whilst their first spouse is still alive are comitting adultery.
If these Christians are to truly repent they must surely annul/repent of their second marriage and live as single persons (or in unlikely circumstances they could of course go back to the original spouse).
Failure to do so leaves such Christians is a continuing state of adultery.
Is it not also then fair to conclude that such christians are living in sin and if we are to take St Paul's words to heart, those that live in sin without prepenting should be denied fellowship??? ( I cannot find the verse, little help please??)

It is a toughie, but I've seen this question drop off the face of the thread board in the past or get hijacked by persons who think the thread is linked to homosexuality somehow. It is not. I do not want to discuss that issue.

I would like to discuss why we allow those who are unrepentingly guilty of adultery to continue to worship in our churches. It seems to me that this is the elephant in the room of Christian morality nowadays. If we are to protect the institution of marriage shouldn't we follow this one through....????

Yes, we should.

Have you ever noticed that annoying churches like the one Fred Phelps runs never seems to ask for money or assistance of any kind?

Its because he is in-line with God. Cash isn't an issue for him.

That is probably the powder keg you needed to start this thread but I think its apt and accurate. I don't know or understand God in most ways. However, it seems that those who take on the more extreme views God has do not need to fear for funding. Take that as what you will.

 

[Matthewj1985]

In my book it is yet another example of Christian convience in only following the parts of the bible you like. Of course the "homosexuality is an ABOMINATION!!!!", folks fail to realize that the only place those 2 words are ever uttered together are in the old testement, right next to all those "icky" laws that we don't have to worry about anymore.

I get into stuff like this with my wife a lot. Clearly all 3 of the big religions see woman as sub-human and 2 of the 3 treat them like property. Some folks try and justify this but it is nothing but special pleading. The modern Christian picks and chooses the parts of the bible they like, and then disregard those that would land them in prison. This is one of the big 4 or 5 reasons I still shy away from the church as a whole.

 

[Autumnleaf]

In my book it is yet another example of Christian convience in only following the parts of the bible you like. Of course the "homosexuality is an ABOMINATION!!!!", folks fail to realize that the only place those 2 words are ever uttered together are in the old testement, right next to all those "icky" laws that we don't have to worry about anymore.

I get into stuff like this with my wife a lot. Clearly all 3 of the big religions see woman as sub-human and 2 of the 3 treat them like property. Some folks try and justify this but it is nothing but special pleading. The modern Christian picks and chooses the parts of the bible they like, and then disregard those that would land them in prison. This is one of the big 4 or 5 reasons I still shy away from the church as a whole.

Homosexuality is mentioned in NT <staff edit>. 'For they will not partake in the kingdom of God...'

Leave your political correctness at the doorway and read the Bible <staff edit>. You can not serve two masters. Women are not men...