Divorce, forbidden and a right? Is it really?

[sylverpiano]

Hi there!

I am on my way out the door for an AA meeting, but I have a few questions regarding divorce. I do not want to derail this thread, so I will start another this afternoon.

Thanks

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well if your a Kennedy with deep pockets, you can get an annulment even after 2 years of marriage. I guess money talks and bull poop walks.

My brother got an annulment and he wasn't rich at all.

If he could get an annulment, anyone can.

OH, and it only cost him $50.

Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

Well if your a Kennedy with deep pockets, you can get an annulment even after 2 years of marriage. I guess money talks and bull poop walks.

What purpose does this statement serve?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Its my understanding they have provisions for legal separation.

If that were true - there would be alot of women still married in that case to horrible men... of which would feel entitled to conjugal visits.

And being separated would mean they know where said spouse is all the time and could be so demented to kill them.

Not so sure separation in this case would be the only answer.

And it is probably grounds for annulment...as some have gotten because of this.

 

[JoabAnias]

If divorce were outlawed, co-habitation would probably increase.

I don't think the solution is in outlawing divorce, but rather in requiring some counseling and mediation to see if problems can be resolved before divorces are granted. It would be good, too, to study the economic penalties of marriage and to try to eliminate them from the tax code and welfare system.

Young mothers are often financially better off if they cohabitate rather than marry. They may qualify for subsidized housing, WIC, food stamps, etc. as long as their baby daddy isn't on the lease. (I know a young couple living in this situation right now.) If they were married, their joint income might preclude such benefits--but yet their joint income would permit them few luxuries.

Which is a bigger tragedy, cohabitation or fake marriage and inevitable divorce and the disillusionment of family?

How could cohabitation increase anymore or that be relevant to what constitutes a true marriage?

At best, irresponsible and psychologically immature people who jump into fornication and playing house can burn their bridges faster.

Cohabitation, Marriage, and Divorce

 

[JoabAnias]

This is Malta, not America. She is a Catholic nation. Please let's try to forgo forcing liberalism and faux-notions of "freedom" that divorces is supposedly included in, because some folks want to corrupt one of the few last Catholic nations on Earth. Let's not let our Catholic Helmsdeep [Malta] fall to the tides of Theological Liberalism, Post-Modernism, and Neo-Modernism.

The other 10% are Muslim and they don't want legal divorce either.

I haven't check to see if this passed yesterday or not but if it did, what do you think that will say about the 90% who claim to be Catholic because it would have been a majority of them who voted it in.

Might want to reserve judgment on Malta's Catholicity.

ETA: Just checked. It passed by 53%. They now have divorce. - MaltaToday - [LIVE] Yes vote prevails in Malta's historic divorce referendum, full results | MaltaToday

 

[JoabAnias]

If that were true - there would be alot of women still married in that case to horrible men... of which would feel entitled to conjugal visits.

And being separated would mean they know where said spouse is all the time and could be so demented to kill them.

Not so sure separation in this case would be the only answer.

And it is probably grounds for annulment...as some have gotten because of this.

I think you need to check into the details a bit more.

If they provide for legal separation (for 4 years I heard) there must be a point where that becomes irreconcilable.

I'm not sure if this new law makes divorce no fault or not. Are you?

Also, it might be helpful checking to see if they have protection orders and other such laws to protect women from domestic violence. I'm sure they do.

Do you know what a legal separation is? The abuser wives/husbands have no more rights to the husband/wives.

Which in actuality, is not an impediment to a sacramental marriage if in all freedom is consummated for better or for worse.
Not for as long as one remains mentally healthy, affluent, virile, or otherwise the same as the day they married.

Does it?

Marriage is for better or worse until death right?

How serious do we want to take that covenant before God?

Marriage does have to be before God to be a covenant right?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well Joab, then that means 1st husbands are the only husbands in all cases then?

 

[JoabAnias]

Well Joab, then that means 1st husbands are the only husbands in all cases then?

That would depend on several variables wouldn't it? Do you know what some of those might be?

 

[WarriorAngel]

The other 10% are Muslim and they don't want legal divorce either.

I haven't check to see if this passed yesterday or not but if it did, what do you think that will say about the 90% who claim to be Catholic because it would have been a majority of them who voted it in.

Might want to reserve judgment on Malta's Catholicity.

ETA: Just checked. It passed by 53%. They now have divorce. - MaltaToday - [LIVE] Yes vote prevails in Malta's historic divorce referendum, full results | MaltaToday

Muslims dont believe marriage has to be forever.
There are two kinds of marriages to a Muslim.

They dont hold marriage in the same regards as Catholics. Far from it.

Divorce: Easy

In the final analysis, divorce proceedings are somewhat easier than in many Western countries [a notable exception being thewell known "Mexican divorce" which can be concluded in a matter of minutes]. The theory being that marriage in Islam is primarily a contract and not a sacrament as originally perceived in the West where it was considered unbreakable [and remains as such among Catholics]. Consequently, if the contract was entered into with a verbal statement of "I do," and witnesses, it should be dissoluble with the statement "I don't," and witnesses.

That would depend on several variables wouldn't it? Do you know what some of those might be?

Abuse.

Plain and simple.
No one being abused should be made to remain married... especially if their life is at risk.

 

[Lady Bug]

I don't think you are the only one, I am sure others feel the same way. But the beauty of the people in Malta having divorce being against the law, is their marriages actually last. They may separate, work on it (receive counseling probably), then come back together. They don't know what it is like to just run out and get a divorce, it was never an option before.

If divorce were to be against the law here, people would be forced to work on their marriages instead of bailing. Then the divorce rate and all the nasty statistics, would not be a problem. People would also probably take the extra steps to make sure the one they are courting is the one they can live with for the rest of their lives.

Divorce causes so much pain and suffering for everyone. Even though everyone may not admit it, every single person regrets divorce in some way, there is something lost, something they grieve too. It is just never a good thing. Think about it for a min, if divorce were against the law where you lived, how would you approach the thought of marriage. Probably a lot differently than people here in the US.

Just because people are legally divorced in the US, it doesn't mean that they're not married in the eyes of the Church though

 

[Lady Bug]

on the other hand, would annulments be illegal? I don't get this

 

[JoabAnias]

on the other hand, would annulments be illegal? I don't get this

You need to separate the two.

First things first.

Repsonsibility comes with priorities.

Well regulated emotions are a good starting point in maturing.

 

[JoabAnias]

Abuse.
Plain and simple.
No one being abused should be made to remain married... especially if their life is at risk.

Not its not plain and simple at all.

Abuse may be grounds for separation but can you show me where abuse is grounds for annulment?

True Marriage is indissoluble.

 

[JoabAnias]

That would depend on several variables wouldn't it? Do you know what some of those might be?

Bump.

WA did you ignore these questions on purpose?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Its not an impediment that a wife or husband enters a marriage on grounds of love only to find abuse, neglect and near death?

 

[WarriorAngel]

75% have fatal attacks.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Malta is voting today.

According to BBC, Malta, Philippines and the Vatican are the only places left on earth where divorce is not legal.

BBC is reporting that divorce is "forbidden" in these places and that divorce is a "human right".

Here is a current article from a Catholic perspective: Malta bishops say divorce voters are 'accountable to Jesus' :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

Where has BBC gone off the rails with its hype?

interesting how it used to be that divorce was illegal everywhere, and now there are only 3 countries left.. it's similar with gay marriage and abortion: slowly it's getting legalized more and more.

I can understand legalizing divorce in the case of annulment... but of course the secular world doesn't believe in annulments anyway,or it's seem just as another type of divorce.... it seems annulment needs to have a specific reason though, it can't just be that the marriage "didn't work out". There needs to be something preventing it from being Sacramental.

 

[JoabAnias]

Its not an impediment that a wife or husband enters a marriage on grounds of love only to find abuse, neglect and near death?

No its not an impediment. If a marriage was valid when it was entered into then it is valid later - for any reason. It is understood that such necessity may entail separation. That necessity does not nullify a marriage however.

The question to ask is if it was valid to begin with. If it was, then marriage is indissoluble.

These days though, people mistakenly think the natural bond created by fornication is love when its not.

 

[StThomasMore]

If that were true - there would be alot of women still married in that case to horrible men... of which would feel entitled to conjugal visits.

And being separated would mean they know where said spouse is all the time and could be so demented to kill them.

Not so sure separation in this case would be the only answer.

And it is probably grounds for annulment...as some have gotten because of this.

physical abuse related to divorce is actually a very small percentage, I think only around 2%. Divorce is never the answer for anything. Being seperated also doesn't mean you always know where your spouse is, especially if one files a restraining order.