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Divine punishment? Is it needed?

Is divine punishment necessary for unrepentant sin at the time of death?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • No

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 34.5%

  • Total voters
    29

Clare73

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Good question!!!

On his sovereign right and will to do so. . .and on nothing else (Romans 9:20-21),
just as he said of Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).
 
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public hermit

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Good question!!!

On his sovereign right and will to do so. . .and on nothing else (Romans 9:20-21),
just as he said of Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).

Okay, yes. Then the reasonable conclusion is that God chooses to create, condemn, and punish God's creatures forever. To you, that is good and gives God glory.

I reject that.

You may now cite numerous scriptures to prove God is justified in being unjust:
 
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GenemZ

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Can you reword that last sentence? Be more specific —for example are you saying that the Lord had two natures before he become man, i.e. as he was creating? If he waived his omniscience at that point, what are you implying?


Before He came down from Heaven to make himself to become as a man?... Yes! The Lord God of Israel was a union of two different natures. He was both Soul and Deity in union.

Keep in mind. Jesus clearly stated that God is "spirit" in essence, as found in John 4:23-24.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Is that safe to assume that we can know that God is "spirit" in essence? Yet, the Lord God of Israel possessed two natures in union. It did not begin with the Incarnation. He always was two natures in union. Its what distinguishes the Son from the Father who is solely one nature.

Here are some proof of what I speak. See what you think...

You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​



And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​



“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14


God (Deity) is not soul!

As those passages reveal, the Lord Jehovah of Israel consisted of two natures in a unique union. With the same Soul that entered the body provided by Mary's womb to make Himself be as a man!
 
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public hermit

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He was both Soul and Deity in union

If you had said Soul, Nous, and One, I would have recognized it as Neoplatonism. Are you referring to the One and the Dyad? Is this a school of thought or your own thought?
 
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RickReads

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What about Melchizedak ?
 
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GenemZ

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If you had said Soul, Nous, and One, I would have recognized it as Neoplatonism. Are you referring to the One and the Dyad? Is this a school of thought or your own thought?
You are thinking inside a box. Its not there.

Please, deal with what I showed you? The way you ask questions makes me forget what I even said... It seems you quickly forget what I said. Its not difficult.

Look at what I said. Forget the boxes you want to put them in.
 
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GenemZ

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I was wondering if and where He fits into your thoughts about God. After all He has the same rank as Jesus.



He would have to be Jesus if that were so. No one else has the same rank as Jesus.

Was Melchizedak sinless like Jesus?

Melchizedak had attributes of a type that Jesus has forever.

In Genesis 18, Abraham spoke with the Lord who appeared as a man in the beginning of the chapter. Abraham did not think he was Melchizedak. Abraham could discern the difference.
 
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RickReads

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He would have to be Jesus if that were so. No one else has the same rank as Jesus.

Was Melchizedak sinless like Jesus?

Sure, otherwise He wouldn't have been qualified to establish the Priesthood Jesus took when He became our High Priest.
 
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RickReads

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The disciples couldn't discern the difference either and only the First and Last has the attributes that Jesus has forever.
 
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GenemZ

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Sure, otherwise He wouldn't have been qualified to establish the Priesthood Jesus took when He became our High Priest.
High priests were not sinless. They entered the holy of holies having offered for their sins before they could make an offering for the sins of others.

But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance." Heb 9:7​

Jesus never made an offering for himself. Like I said... Melchizedak was a symbolic 'type.' Just like a lamb without spot or blemish was a type of Jesus in sacrifice.

He was an actual human king. Gen 14:17-20

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying:

“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
 
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wendykvw

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Precisely. However, I spent 20 years as a Southern Baptist and never had a problem with ECT. My transition came when I began to see my harsh treatment of those who I believed were " heretics"and were headed to ECT.

For many "believers" the topic of ECT is not a serious concern, mainly because they assume that they are smarter than the majority of the world and have nothing to worry about since they are involved in a religious congregation that has all the answers. This is what Psychologist Dr. Scott Peck calls " The four Stages of Spiritual Growth/ Faith. ( Link: The 4 Stages Of Spiritual Growth, The 4 Stages Of Faith, The Stages Of Spiritual Growth, The Stages Of Faith,)

The two most widely held theological definitions of God: Calvinism, God will choose a few; or Arminianism, a few will choose God. Both fail at explaining why God would lose the majority of the world to the "will" of Satan and the "trespass of Adam". If traditional models are truly honest with their theological bias they are forced to admit that the act of Christ was unsuccessful. They are forced to admit that both Satan and Adam acts defeated the creator of the universe. And that God's infallible wisdom and desire to redeem all was prevented by a wicked fallen angel and fallible Adam. This of course is the greatest heresy of our generation, and is actually being reformed by those who are very dedicated to ushering in a new reformation.

"Some people claim that Jesus didn’t advocate for justice. They have a point if you think that justice and retribution are necessarily connected. But they are not. Jesus transforms our understanding of justice, not by connecting it with retribution, but with forgiveness. Jesus taught his disciples to forgive not just 7 times, but 77 times. Obviously, forgiveness isn’t about counting up to 77 times and then quitting. Seven is the symbolic number for completeness in the Hebrew Bible. Using 77 as a hyperbole, Jesus said we should never stop forgiving.

But does that mean Jesus didn’t advocate for justice? Are justice and forgiveness opposed to one another? No. Jesus opposed retributive justice. The justice system in the United States is based on punishment. It’s primarily a form of retributive justice. The same was true in ancient Rome. If you committed an act that was against the “justice of Rome,” you would not be forgiven; you’d be killed. If you commit an act that’s against the “justice of the United States,” you will be punished and possibly killed. Jesus turned that idea of justice upside down. He enacted restorative justice. It’s a justice that isn’t based on retribution. Rather, it’s based on healing our souls and our relationships." -Adam Ericksen
 
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RickReads

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Melchizedek was not a Jewish priest. The Jewish priesthood wasn't established until hundreds of years later. Now how could a sinner establish a priesthood for Jesus?
 
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RickReads

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Melchizedek was not a Jewish priest. The Jewish priesthood wasn't established until hundreds of years later. Now how could a sinner establish a priesthood for Jesus?
 
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GenemZ

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Melchizedek was not a Jewish priest. The Jewish priesthood wasn't established until hundreds of years later. Now how could a sinner establish a priesthood for Jesus?

He was not establishing it for Jesus. He was an established type. One that Jesus became the antitype for.

When I said "sinner" I am not speaking about someone who lives a life of sin. All men have a fallen nature. Only Jesus did not.

All high priests had a fallen nature. That's they way it was. They would sin. That is why the high priest had to make a sin offering for himself before making an offering for the people. Just as Job made offerings for his family, Melchizedek was making offerings for others of his people.
 
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RickReads

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Read the rest of the information.

Hebrews 7
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
 
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RickReads

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The book of Hebrews calls Melchizedek the King of Righteousness. Doesnt sound fallen to me.
 
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GenemZ

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(Melchisedec), without {recorded} father,
without {recorded} mother,
without genealogical records,
having neither a birth certificate {literally - beginning of days},
nor death certificate {literally - end of life},
but having been caused to resemble the Son of God,

Who (Jesus) remains a priest perpetually.

Note: Melchisedec's status as King was earned by HIS military victory. He was NOT born a king either through his Father or his mother - no royalty tables of genealogy. Melchisedec was a real person. He was the King and Priest in a special Priesthood from which the Lord Jesus Christ would become a High Priest forever - superior to all other priesthoods.

Jesus is the priesthood forever, not Melchisedec. Jesus became like the Melchisedec type priesthood, forever.

 
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GenemZ

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The book of Hebrews calls Melchizedek the King of Righteousness. Doesnt sound fallen to me.

We are all fallen because we were all born of Adam. You are not sinless perfection because of that.

And? Noah was a preacher of Righteousness. 2 Pet. 2:5
Noah was not a sinner (saved by grace)?



In the resurrection when having our new body that will not longer be the case. No longer will we need the Holy Spirit to control our flesh as He must do now if we are to walk without sinning.
 
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