Divine Healing In This Day And Age

[Bob Crowley]

I've started reading a book by Francis MacNutt, entitled "Healing". You won't get any brownie points for guessing where I got the post title from. I haven't finished it yet, as I find it easy to drift off in my dotage, but I'll get there.

It's not new - it's a golden oldie of 1974 vintage, and reprinted in 1999. As it turned out, he died himself early this year getting on for 75 years of age.

Francis MacNutt - Wikipedia

He was associated with Catholic Charismatic Renewal, so he had what might be called a Pentecostal flavour, and was a priest at one stage, but left the Dominican order to get married.

In the book he points out the early church made converts by "acts of power" namely healings and miracles, which he believed should still be a part of our ministry today. Apparently when he was still a priest, he was asked in a TV interview in Australia, 'Don't you think it's unusual that you, a Catholic priest, are a faith healer?" He replied, "I would think it would be more unusual if I were not!"

The jailer at Philippi wasn't convinced by the profound theological arguments of Paul and Barnabas. In fact they were locked up for upsetting other people with their claims. But he was influenced by what seemed to be a narrow squeak due to an earthquake. We read that even humble handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched Paul's body were agents of healing.

MacNutt claimed that these days we have minimised such overt actions in favour of an emphasis on doctrine and dogma, particularly in the West. The other point he raised is that we've taken on an attitude that rather than ask for healing, we now think it means God wants us to suffer as a means of spiritual growth.

No doubt there considerable truth in that sentiment, but I also wonder if one of the reasons the Church is fading in the West is it's apparent powerlessness. We're heavy on doctrine, but weak in power. Miracles? What miracles?

Any thoughts?

 

[Dave L]

I've started reading a book by Francis MacNutt, entitled "Healing". You won't get any brownie points for guessing where I got the post title from. I haven't finished it yet, as I find it easy to drift off in my dotage, but I'll get there.

It's not new - it's a golden oldie of 1974 vintage, and reprinted in 1999. As it turned out, he died himself early this year getting on for 75 years of age.

Francis MacNutt - Wikipedia

He was associated with Catholic Charismatic Renewal, so he had what might be called a Pentecostal flavour, and was a priest at one stage, but left the Dominican order to get married.

In the book he points out the early church made converts by "acts of power" namely healings and miracles, which he believed should still be a part of our ministry today. Apparently when he was still a priest, he was asked in a TV interview in Australia, 'Don't you think it's unusual that you, a Catholic priest, are a faith healer?" He replied, "I would think it would be more unusual if I were not!"

The jailer at Philippi wasn't convinced by the profound theological arguments of Paul and Barnabas. In fact they were locked up for upsetting other people with their claims. But he was influenced by what seemed to be a narrow squeak due to an earthquake. We read that even humble handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched Paul's body were agents of healing.

MacNutt claimed that these days we have minimised such overt actions in favour of an emphasis on doctrine and dogma, particularly in the West. The other point he raised is that we've taken on an attitude that rather than ask for healing, we now think it means God wants us to suffer as a means of spiritual growth.

No doubt there considerable truth in that sentiment, but I also wonder if one of the reasons the Church is fading in the West is it's apparent powerlessness. We're heavy on doctrine, but weak in power. Miracles? What miracles?

Any thoughts?

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

“Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.” (Galatians 4:12–15) (KJV 1900)

(alternate translation of the above passage) “you know that previously I preached the gospel to you because of a physical illness. You did not despise or reject me though my physical condition was a trial for you. On the contrary, you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.” (Galatians 4:13–14)(HCSB)

“What happened to this sense of being blessed you had? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me.” (Galatians 4:15)(HCSB)

“For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:26–27) (KJV 1900)

Paul left Trophimus in Miletus when he was sick (II Tim 4:20), and Epaphroditus was sick to the point of death (Phil 2:27). Timothy was encouraged to use wine for his stomach ailments (1 Tim 5:23). God never removed Paul's thorn in the flesh (II Cor 12:1-10).

 

[Bobber]

No doubt there considerable truth in that sentiment, but I also wonder if one of the reasons the Church is fading in the West is it's apparent powerlessness. We're heavy on doctrine, but weak in power.

Yes. That's one big reason why the church has so little influence.

 

[Bobber]

“Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20) (KJV 1900)

Yes. People are left in a sickened condition. Such doesn't mean healing couldn't have become a reality and manifested in that persons life though. And none of this means that Trophimus couldn't have been healed days later so you can't build a won't heal a person doctrine out of it.

“Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23) (KJV 1900)

But people who believe in healing can ALSO believe you can take certain things in the physical to make one feel relieved. I believe God heals but look....if I get a touch of heart burn which I don't get often but if I did sure I'll take a rolaid.

 

[Dave L]

Yes. People are left in a sickened condition. Such doesn't mean healing couldn't have become a reality and manifested in that persons life though. And none of this means that Trophimus couldn't have been healed days later so you can't build a won't heal a person doctrine out of it.



But people who believe in healing can ALSO believe you can take certain things in the physical to make one feel relieved. I believe God heals but look....if I get a touch of heart burn which I don't get often but if I did sure I'll take a rolaid.

Is anyone more gifted than Paul who could not heal his friends? Why no healings today with the pandemic? One miracle would echo around the world and lend credibility to the entire movement that says so much with nothing to show for it.

 

[K2K]

Yeah, I have some thoughts about it.

It is not whether you are Catholic, or Protestant, Charismatic, or Pentecostal, but it is clearly about whether you know the Lord! Like knowing any person, it happens from spending time in conversations with Him - which is just another way of saying the you hear His voice. It is what is often call 'the still small voice'.

Ex 15:26 and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

He personality has not changed. If you listen to His voice (And I am not talking about read a book but actually listen to His words which are spiritual word you pick up in your spirit) and follow the instructions He gives you then healing will happen. It might not happen like you think. Why should it? His thoughts are not your thoughts! But you will see Him do what He does, which is often healing!

Now somebody wrote:

Is anyone more gifted than Paul who could not heal his friends? Why no healings today with the pandemic?

The very obvious answer to "Is anyone more gifted than Paul, the obvious answer is that the Lord our God is more gifted that Paul. Indeed what did Paul do except listen the Lord?

Have you not read Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.

And concerning "Why not healings today with the pandemic?" Who told you there are not healing today, and why do you listen to that? Did you not read "If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God". Are you doing that? Well if not you should expect to see healings today.

The bigger question is why do we have a pandemic? Could it possibly be that the world in general is not listening to Him like they should? Consider what Jesus told Nicodemus, "“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."

So in the OP we get a report of a testimony about healing. Do we accept that report/testimony?

I personally find it especially sad that the following is written in the OP:

We're heavy on doctrine, but weak in power. Miracles? What miracles?

Any thoughts?

Bob clearly expressed some thoughts about our relying on doctrine, yet we are week in power, even to the point of asking "What Miracles?"

What miracles? Lots and lots of miracles!! That's what. Have we not seen them? Perhaps the Lord has closed your eyes?

Honestly, I find this "What Miracles?" Extremely sad, because I have seen oh so many. Of course the Lord wanted me and made it so that I could work in a Christian healing ministry. Honestly the Lord was performing miracles to some degree or extent in most of the people who came in. So the question was never "What Miracles" but was "Why not that person Lord?"

The answer to "Why not that person, Lord" was usually that they didn't listen to Him! Now it sometimes showed up in them not forgiving others. My friends, the Lord wants you forgiving others, so if you listen He is going to tell you that! Have you not even read that if you don't forgive others He Father in heaven will not forgive you? Well - if you listen to Him He will remind you of that, of course!

So in that healing Christian healing ministry the Lord more times than not would have us lead people through forgiveness. We often had to do that before we saw healing. Still the first thing I did was listen to Him for instructions and the second thing was almost always getting them to seek His voice while we prayed and interceded for the. Still that was not always second. He might tell you to something different when you listen to Him for instructions. It can be weird.

I remember once that He asked me to pray over a mans shoulders before we got started, and something about him having a lot of stress. So that was put before our normal start. The man looked at me and told me that was incredible, because his shoulders had been hurting him really bad but almost as soon as I started to pray it went away. That is just a quick testimony but is what we saw all the time. Still I have also seen legs grow out, felt swelling go down under my hand as I prayed, bone spurs went away, cancer got healed, heart surgery got canceled, wheel chairs left, walker folded up, cains carried out under arms, headaches, shoulder problems, gone, elbow problems gone, stomach problems gone ... Now not every time but I'd say 70% of the time the Lord did something.

So the question might not be ""What Miracles?" - the question that might need to be asked "Why am I not seeing them?" And understand the One you are asking is Jesus Christ!! Also, if you are asking you are looking to hear His voice, right?

I'll start a thread in this section on hearing His voice, for any interested. I have done those thread quite often. Sadly, they usually seem to attract scoffers instead of people really interested in help hear from Him. Note: the scoffer is the one who thinks that the Lord can not be heard from, as if He didn't really mean "diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God". The wise person believes and seek for His voice, and it is written that all those who seek find.

 

[Dave L]

Yeah, I have some thoughts about it.

It is not whether you are Catholic, or Protestant, Charismatic, or Pentecostal, but it is clearly about whether you know the Lord! Like knowing any person, it happens from spending time in conversations with Him - which is just another way of saying the you hear His voice. It is what is often call 'the still small voice'.

Ex 15:26 and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

He personality has not changed. If you listen to His voice (And I am not talking about read a book but actually listen to His words which are spiritual word you pick up in your spirit) and follow the instructions He gives you then healing will happen. It might not happen like you think. Why should it? His thoughts are not your thoughts! But you will see Him do what He does, which is often healing!

Now somebody wrote:



The very obvious answer to "Is anyone more gifted than Paul, the obvious answer is that the Lord our God is more gifted that Paul. Indeed what did Paul do except listen the Lord?

Have you not read Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.

And concerning "Why not healings today with the pandemic?" Who told you there are not healing today, and why do you listen to that? Did you not read "If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God". Are you doing that? Well if not you should expect to see healings today.

The bigger question is why do we have a pandemic? Could it possibly be that the world in general is not listening to Him like they should? Consider what Jesus told Nicodemus, "“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony."

So in the OP we get a report of a testimony about healing. Do we accept that report/testimony?

I personally find it especially sad that the following is written in the OP:



Bob clearly expressed some thoughts about our relying on doctrine, yet we are week in power, even to the point of asking "What Miracles?"

What miracles? Lots and lots of miracles!! That's what. Have we not seen them? Perhaps the Lord has closed your eyes?

Honestly, I find this "What Miracles?" Extremely sad, because I have seen oh so many. Of course the Lord wanted me and made it so that I could work in a Christian healing ministry. Honestly the Lord was performing miracles to some degree or extent in most of the people who came in. So the question was never "What Miracles" but was "Why not that person Lord?"

The answer to "Why not that person, Lord" was usually that they didn't listen to Him! Now it sometimes showed up in them not forgiving others. My friends, the Lord wants you forgiving others, so if you listen He is going to tell you that! Have you not even read that if you don't forgive others He Father in heaven will not forgive you? Well - if you listen to Him He will remind you of that, of course!

So in that healing Christian healing ministry the Lord more times than not would have us lead people through forgiveness. We often had to do that before we saw healing. Still the first thing I did was listen to Him for instructions and the second thing was almost always getting them to seek His voice while we prayed and interceded for the. Still that was not always second. He might tell you to something different when you listen to Him for instructions. It can be weird.

I remember once that He asked me to pray over a mans shoulders before we got started, and something about him having a lot of stress. So that was put before our normal start. The man looked at me and told me that was incredible, because his shoulders had been hurting him really bad but almost as soon as I started to pray it went away. That is just a quick testimony but is what we saw all the time. Still I have also seen legs grow out, felt swelling go down under my hand as I prayed, bone spurs went away, cancer got healed, heart surgery got canceled, wheel chairs left, walker folded up, cains carried out under arms, headaches, shoulder problems, gone, elbow problems gone, stomach problems gone ... Now not every time but I'd say 70% of the time the Lord did something.

So the question might not be ""What Miracles?" - the question that might need to be asked "Why am I not seeing them?" And understand the One you are asking is Jesus Christ!! Also, if you are asking you are looking to hear His voice, right?

I'll start a thread in this section on hearing His voice, for any interested. I have done those thread quite often. Sadly, they usually seem to attract scoffers instead of people really interested in help hear from Him. Note: the scoffer is the one who thinks that the Lord can not be heard from, as if He didn't really mean "diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God". The wise person believes and seek for His voice, and it is written that all those who seek find.

We hear lots of talk about healing but with billions of video devices around the globe, we don't see anything to back the bold claims of Charismatics.

 

[Bobber]

I'll start a thread in this section on hearing His voice, for any interested. I have done those thread quite often. Sadly, they usually seem to attract scoffers instead of people really interested in help hear from Him. Note: the scoffer is the one who thinks that the Lord can not be heard from, as if He didn't really mean "diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God". The wise person believes and seek for His voice, and it is written that all those who seek find.

Quite right. Scoffers conclude because they've never experienced things of the Spirit that mean nobody else possibly could have. That's like saying because they haven't flown on an airplane or been to space nobody else has either.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Scoffers conclude because they've never experienced things of the Spirit that mean nobody else possibly could have. That's like saying because they haven't flown on an airplane or been to space nobody else has either.

Bit of rubbish analogy.

We know how planes work, we know how space rockets work and we have plenty of physical evidence that people have indeed traveled to space or taken a passenger jet to their holiday destination.

What you are proposing is more like your friend told you he took Pegasus the flying horse to get some Cuban cigars on his lunch break.

 

[Bobber]

Bit of rubbish analogy.

We know how planes work,

And one can know how a life in the Spirit works too.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

And one can know how a life in the Spirit works too.

You can stick a flat earther to a space rocket and send it to the moon - lovely image that - and it would work regardless what the poor guy thought about it.

How do you propose to demonstrate life in the Spirit working ?

 

[Bobber]

Why no healings today with the pandemic? One miracle would echo around the world and lend credibility to the entire movement that says so much with nothing to show for it.

OK well here you go! Now just remember you said you'd believe.

 

[Bobber]

How do you propose to demonstrate life in the Spirit working ?

See post 12.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

OK well here you go! Now just remember you said you'd believe.

If you look it up there is plenty more

The miracle of those who never got it in the first place. (My favourite)

Miracle of those who got it but weren’t really affected in any way.

Miracle of those who got it , got sick and recovered.

Miracle of those who, got it, didn’t recover and actually died, but probably would have died sooner without enduring faith to their eventual miraculous recovery.

It is mainly how you look at things.

Nowadays a Bible staying in the table is a miracle in some circles.

Beirut explosion: Video of church altar's survival brings hope The altar that survived Beirut's explosion

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

See post 12.

We can probably find a video clip of Muslim saying something similar.

Does that prove to you Allah is real ?

 

[Bobber]

We can probably find a video clip of Muslim saying something similar.

Does that prove to you Allah is real ?

And as suspected....NO type of evidence of anything many you will accept. There may be a remnant of people on the earth however which will.

 

[Dave L]

OK well here you go! Now just remember you said you'd believe.

Most recover. Where do people raise the dead today? Or heal polio, or do any of the works they claim to do in public view? God heals everyone who recovers from anything, but not as in Acts.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

There may be a remnant of people on the earth however which will.

There are people who believe in flat earth, underground war going on, firmament, statues being petrified giants, people being resurrected if they drink oil dripping from a Bible (purchased from shop naturally) and lots of other things so I am sure there are some will believe this as well.

 

[Bobber]

There are people who believe in flat earth, underground war going on, firmament, statues being petrified giants, people being resurrected if they drink oil dripping from a Bible (purchased from shop naturally) and lots of other things so I am sure there are some will believe this as well.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:27

As I stated no matter what the evidence people will still roll out what you said above. One is going to either believe what God's word says about these things or they aren't. Signs even raising people from the dead won't do it.

 

[K2K]

Bit of rubbish analogy.

We know how planes work, we know how space rockets work and we have plenty of physical evidence that people have indeed traveled to space or taken a passenger jet to their holiday destination.

What you are proposing is more like your friend told you he took Pegasus the flying horse to get some Cuban cigars on his lunch break.

Then the problem of believing in the Lord is that God is spirit, and you have not experienced dealing with Him enough. Thus your evidence is lacking, which is why it was written that faith comes from hearing!!

And that goes back to why you don't seeing His healing. You don't listen, and the promise is for those who harken to His voice!

So here is what happens. People say that they could know about God's healing power by a means other than by hearing the Lord, but is not God smarter than you? You scoff at Him and He lets you become blind to what is going on around you. You scoff at Him so even the testimony of many is disregarded by you. And He laughs at you and hides from you because you think you can figure Him out by your own great wisdom. And you are not alone. Many do exact same thing, scoffing at God. So He has it set up that even though miracles are happening all around you won't know about them. You won't see them though I can honestly say I have been involved in hundreds. At least that many.

Though it is clearly all explained in the Scriptures and is happening all around, the scoffer can see it. Then isn't it right that He should laugh and scoff at them?

Ps 2:2-4 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and His Anointed saying, 'Let us tear theri fetters apart and cast away their cords from us!' He who sits in the heavens laughs, and the Lord scoffs at them.

So He has even put a book telling us all this, but you scoff at the book, the writers of the book, those sent to testify to you and tell you about Him, and in so doing have made a life of fighting against Him and saying that He is not there. There is no power or benefit in seeking Him, you tell yourself. You do not accept testimonies, you will not even look least you find out your are wrong.

Then what can be said. Even in a court of law, if asked, I could honest explain how I had hurt my knee surfing and when it got prayed for it got hot and was heal in an instance, but if you were in the jury you would scoff at that testimony. If I told you about how when we prayed for a lady going in for heart surgery the next day, and when she got there they sent her home because the pre-surgery exam could not now find the problem, you again would scoff saying it never happened. If I was to be able to take you to a massive healing service and 500 people all go up giving testimonies about how God has just healed them, and were now leaving the wheel chairs they came in on behind, you would still scoff and say it was all in there head anyway.

I can honestly tell you that the Lord once told me, "Karl if someone does not believe in miracles today they don't believe in me because they don't believe in the cross."

Would not not considering rising from the dead a miracle. But He did so and the word of God thus is alive and active, just like it is written. But you say in your heart 'who will descend into the abyss to find the word of God, or who will ascend into heaven to find the word of God, so you don't seek Him and listen!

It clearly has been written that the word of God is near you and is found in your heart and even on your lips but you can't find Him because you scoff at the very idea of listening to Him. So since He promised that if you harken to His voice He will heal your land your land is not healed. So how can you see healing in your land since you don't listen, you scoff instead?

In my land I see healing. Not only my knee but He healed a growth behind my ear in a moment. I felt is go down and literally vanish in less than a 20 seconds. My sons foot got healed under my hand when I was praying. My daughter knee also was healed. My mom's wrist. A friends back and her knee later also. A cold a fellow worker had. Both wrist of another worker who had Carpal tunnel syndrome and had been wearing a wrist brace on the worse wrist for many months and seeing a doctor. My mom's friend you had bone spurs had them suddenly removed. Another acquaintance had God instantly remove and tennis ball size growth inside him, and then I work in a healing ministry where I saw hundred of people healed. And the 500 plus people testify, well I saw that at a Benny Hinn crusade. Have you never heard about them? Perhaps you scoffed at it?

Scoffers can't believe. They won't let themselves. It all has to be wrong, right? Wrong. It is all still going on today, around you, put who can see?