Divine Foreknowledge

[servant4ever]

Hello all,

I don't know if this is the right board, since this can be a liberal idea in theology, but I am wondering what everyone thinks about Open Theism.

I personally believe in Open Theism because I can see that we do have total free will in my life. I can either choose to go one way, and many different things would have happened if I went another way. I don't see how God could have foreknown each event since we have a free will. For example, if God had foreknown that Adam and Eve would eventually take fruit from the tree, why would have God placed the temptation. He knew it would have been a possibility that Adam and Eve would have fallen into sin, but He did not know the free choice Adam and Eve would have chosen.

servant4ever

 

[Sophia23]

...this seems interesting.
But, hmm... maybe God knew all the possibilities - but not which would actually occur.

Or maybe... I mean the mind of god is... incomprehensible right - who knows how time is represented in there, cause and effect, everything... but...
interesting

 

[David Gould]

The action is not caused by the knowledge; the knowledge is caused by the action.

In other words, Adam eating the apple caused God to know that Adam would eat the apple.


As such, his foreknowledge could not prevent something happening because if he prevented it happening he would not have foreseen it.

This implies that God does not have too much freedom of action, though. But that is okay: after all, God, being perfectly good and all knowing, can only do the perfectly good thing. As such, for any choice confronting him there will be only one choice that God's nature will permit him to take. Thus, he can have no free will.

 

[seebs]

I don't see how we conclude that there is only one "perfectly good" choice.

I can frequently identify multiple choices which appear to be equally good; why should this stop further up the scale?

 

[BarbB]

.

I personally believe in Open Theism because I can see that we do have total free will in my life. I can either choose to go one way, and many different things would have happened if I went another way. I don't see how God could have foreknown each event since we have a free will. For example, if God had foreknown that Adam and Eve would eventually take fruit from the tree, why would have God placed the temptation. He knew it would have been a possibility that Adam and Eve would have fallen into sin, but He did not know the free choice Adam and Eve would have chosen.

servant4ever

Why put limits on God's omniscience? He is not limited by time or space so can see what we will do in spite of millions of variations.

And God did not place the temptation of the tree; he placed the tree. Satan tempted and man fell.

 

[servant4ever]

Why put limits on God's omniscience? He is not limited by time or space so can see what we will do in spite of millions of variations.

And God did not place the temptation of the tree; he placed the tree. Satan tempted and man fell.

I am not putting limits on God's omniscience. He knows all the distinct possibilities that could happen. For example, God knew all the possibilities that will happen for me in choosing whether or not I am going to eat pizza for dinner. He knows that I could choose to order pizza at 4:00, 5:00, 6:00 and so on. He also knows that I could choose not to order a pizza and just go to a fast food place to get a hamburger, which means I can choose from a quarterpounder with cheese, double quarterpounder with cheese, you get the point... He knows all the different choices that we can choose from, but, since he is all loving, He wants us to have free choice. If He made us love Him, that is not love. For example, if you receive a shirt you really did not like when you were a child, and your mother told you that you had to love the shirt or you will be in trouble, that is not true love of the shirt, it will just be a false love, just pretending you really like this shirt so you don't get in trouble. I know God and a shirt are not comparable, but it is similar concept, if God makes you love Him or you will be punished, that is not love, you are only pretending to love Him so you don't get in trouble. It has to be our own free choice to love Him, or it will be false, which is a lie, and God can't stand lying, which it is impossible for Him to do.

Now for the second point in Genesis, why would God place a tree there if He knew it would be a temptation. For example, you have a cookie jar in the same room with a two year old. You walk out of the room and tell them not to take a cookie. You know what will happen, they will sneak a cookie and try to hide it, which what Adam and Eve did after they ate of the fruit from the tree. You may be thinking an adult will never do that, so is God, He is our Father and we are His Children. He must have known that it would be a possibility, but if you knew 100% that the child was going to take a cookie from the jar, would you leave the jar in the same room with the child? God did not know 100% that Adam and Eve were going to eat the fruit from the tree, it was just a small possibility. He knew that Eve could have told the serpeant to get away since the were not supposed to eat from the tree. He also knew that it was possible that Eve would eat from the fruit, then give it to Adam. He also knew EVERY single possibility in the middle of the spectrum. God's omniscience is so far greater if He knows all the possibilities, not just one direct road a person is going to go down.

servant4ever

 

[BarbB]

I agree with everything you said in your first paragraph, servant, but it still does not seem too hard for the God who knows all the choices we have to make to know what we will finally decide (for our pizza, ha ha ha). Edited to add: His foreknowledge does not mean that he is forcing our choices on us but that he knows what those choices will be and amazingly enough His plan will accommodate whatever we choose.

I believe that God knew that the Tree would be used in Adam and Eve's downfall, but once again there is NO evidence in the Bible that Adam and Eve even cared about the tree until the deception of Satan. I can see them ignoring it as I would ignore a pretty dress that I wanted but couldn't afford. It doesn't seem to have bothered them until Satan brought it up.



Edited to add: I'm getting in way over my head here!

 

[Sophia23]

Edited to add: I'm getting in way over my head here!

you and me both

 

[servant4ever]

Newlamb,

That is the thing I am saying, God cannot know what we are going to do because we have a total free will. He knows all the distinct possibilities, but since we have a free will, He cannot know what we are going to choose. For example, when a child is tempted to do something, for example, grab a cookie from the cookie jar in the same room with them. We know what choices they can make, they can either decide to take it after a second, take it after a minute, or decide not to take with, with many different choices in between. We also know what will happen if a child takes the cookie, they are punished. But we also know that if the child decides to wait then take the cookie, they won't get punsihed as severe, and the child is not punished, yet receives an award for not taking the cookie. We know what reaction that the child will try to use, we know they may try to lie, or maybe they may try to say that the cookie jar made them, or a story like that. I know this sounds really simplistic, but this is the same way with God. We don't know what the child will decide what action they will do, but we know the possible choices. Whew, what a long paragraph just to explain something small...

Next with the tree, I am back to my same point. If God KNEW that Adam and Eve would fall into sin from the tree, why did God place the tree there? One example I thought of today is that if a you tell a child not to touch something, wouldn't they be curious, and in fact, even try to touch the object, just to see what happens. For example, if there is a sign saying "don't touch the car," a small child will see what will happen if they do, and the car alarm goes off. It is the same with us, God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree, they will be curious why, and satan, took advantage of the curiousity and eventually convinced them to eat. If God knew that satan would take advantage of their curiousity, why would God allow them to be tempted, since God cannot tempt people? We are all children, we don't know what we do without guidence from God. But, we have to grow in Christ to go for the spiritual food, not spiritual milk, as it is listed in 1 Corinthians.

This may not make sense, I'm sorry if it is, I am really interested in Theology, and I am only a college student!

servant4ever

 

[Deamiter]

Where is the love if we are NOT tempted? God could create us with free will - but if there is only one choice, we don't HAVE a choice. We must have the chance to fall if we want the chance to choose God freely.

Along with this, there is scripture that says very precisely that God knows the future - not just all possibilities. He knew you before you were born, and he knows your words before you speak them. (forgive my lack of references - I could do an online search if you ask) God also gives us free will - which conflicts with a human understanding of causality - cause and effect. But simply because our intuition can't grasp how God can know the future and STILL create us with free will (the chance to NOT take the fruit) doesn't mean that it's not possible. There are MANY things (easy example: optical illusions - or just about everything in physics) that our intuition is at direct odds with. Perhaps bounding God by time (when he existed before time, and will exist after time) is not the best route to take?

 

[Entropy]

Along with this, there is scripture that says very precisely that God knows the future - not just all possibilities. He knew you before you were born, and he knows your words before you speak them. (forgive my lack of references - I could do an online search if you ask) God also gives us free will - which conflicts with a human understanding of causality - cause and effect. But simply because our intuition can't grasp how God can know the future and STILL create us with free will (the chance to NOT take the fruit) doesn't mean that it's not possible.

There are instances in the Bible where it would indicate that God doesn't exhaustively know the future. For example, He's surprised sometimes when people reject him. In Isa 5:4b, God is using an unproductive vineyard as an anaology of Jerusalems rebellion, and says "Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes, did it produce worthless ones?" Something happened he didn't expect. See also Jer 3:6-7, 19-20.

And he doesn't consider all possibilities. In Jer 19:5, when speaking of Judah's idol worship, he says that his people sacrificing children to idols didn't even enter his mind.

If exhaustive divine foreknowledge was consistently shown in the Bible, then I'd accept the paradox of that and free will. But there's no need for the paradox when scripture is viewed as a whole.

 

[Dan V.]

Acts 15:18. "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world"

Acts 2:23. "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain"

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Hello all.. This question has been thouroughly and accurately addressed (in 1647)


From the Westminster Standards - well worth the reading.

CHAPTER II
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

I. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

 

[calvinjim]

I see two problems with the above. 1) God is being looked on in human terms. 2) More importantly no one is considering what God's word says about Him.

In more than one place in the Bible we read that God knows the end from the beginning, that He knows the hearts of men, that nothing is hid from His sight. So God naturally must know everything, even what man will do before He does it, for the Bible says that He knows all things.

The assumption that has been made is that God had never intended the fall. But why make that assumption? In Eph. 1 we read that we were "chosen before the foundation of the world." And elsewhere Jesus is called the Lamb who was slain "from the foundation of the world. So according to the Bible, God had planned redemption before He had created anything. So the Fall must have been a part of God's plan. We know that He knew Adam would sin before He created Adam, because He planned redemption before He created Adam.

One post pointed out rightly that God is separate from His creation, so then He is not confined to space and time, for He created space and time. His omnipresence would mean that He is not only every where at one but He is at every time. He is not confined to His creation.

This is pretty heady stuff. But it is important to let God's word tell us about the attributes of God, and not to simply rely on our human reasoning.

Grace to you;
Jim

 

[Entropy]

I see two problems with the above. 1) God is being looked on in human terms. 2) More importantly no one is considering what God's word says about Him.

Regarding 1). God knows that I can only think in human terms. He is a spirit, yet describes himself as stretching out his hand, or hiding his face, or protecting us with his wings. He doesn't have a body, by definition of "spirit", so these statements obviously aren't literally true. Does the same anthropomorphism apply to foreknowledge though? Only if I have a preconception that he must know everything exhaustively.

Regarding 2). Unfair statement. Please see scripture references in my above post.

In more than one place in the Bible we read that God knows the end from the beginning, that He knows the hearts of men, that nothing is hid from His sight. So God naturally must know everything, even what man will do before He does it, for the Bible says that He knows all things.

Please note that I'm not saying God doesn't know a great deal about the future. Please give reference for where he says he knows every choice we will ever make.

This is pretty heady stuff. But it is important to let God's word tell us about the attributes of God, and not to simply rely on our human reasoning.

I agree with your statement, but I don't see how it applies to your position. God clearly states that he changes his mind, that he is surprised by our choices and actions, that he gets frustrated with us. Dismissing statements by God regarding himself is not letting him speak for himself. Are you aware of when the idea of an unchangeable God first came up?

Respectfully,
Entropy