divine atributes of Jesus

[Simonline]

This is a christian forum where we discuss theology in the base of the Bible...NOT METAPHYSICS.

I am discussing theology on the basis of the Bible and you are just ignoring everything that I am saying because it doesn't agree with your theological presupposition that the Son 'emptied Himself' of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth. You have not made a single attempt to demonstrate why anything that I have said is theologically incorrect let alone metaphysically incorrect. Instead you have just kept repeating the same heresy over and over again on the mistaken (not to mention imbecilic) assumption that if you keep repeating it then eventually you will drown me out and what you say will be the truth?!

Think again?!

Simonline.

 

[Goinheix]

God the Son did experince kenosis. Denaying kenosis is calling Paul a lier or being wrong. Kenosis in greek is not other thing than emptying. By emptying, the greek kenosis means all the way to cero. It is something that God had and that did give away. We have a big discussion on what it was. Some theologians as me, think he did give away all his divine atributes (without quiting to be God). Others propose its glory or his privileges. Any how, there is something that God the Son had before incarnation, and didnt have after incarnation. That is already a change. It does not matter what kenosis refers to. There is a change, something that was emptied.

As you see; your doctrine of God not changing has to be review. God the Son did change. It is not any lack of knowledge or intelect on me.

 

[Simonline]

God the Son did experince kenosis. Denaying kenosis is calling Paul a lier or being wrong. Kenosis in greek is not other thing than emptying. By emptying, the greek kenosis means all the way to cero. It is something that God had and that did give away. We have a big discussion on what it was. Some theologians as me, think he did give away all his divine atributes (without quiting to be God). Others propose its glory or his privileges. Any how, there is something that God the Son had before incarnation, and didnt have after incarnation. That is already a change. It does not matter what kenosis refers to. There is a change, something that was emptied.

As you see; your doctrine of God not changing has to be review. God the Son did change. It is not any lack of knowledge or intelect on me.

If you're just going to ignore everything that I say then I'm just going to return the compliment and ignore you. Remember, Truth is still true even if no-one believes it and falsehood is still false even if everyone believes it.

Simonline.

 

[Goinheix]

If you're just going to ignore everything that I say then I'm just going to return the compliment and ignore you. Remember, Truth is still true even if no-one believes it and falsehood is still false even if everyone believes it.

Simonline.

Might you please repeat what I am "ignoring"?

 

[Simonline]

Might you please repeat what I am "ignoring"?

You're having a giraffe?!

If you want to know what you're ignoring then I suggest that you go back to the begining and start reading all my posts again. Then you will need to address each of the points that I have raised one by one and show how what I have said cannot possibly be correct, not just ignore them whilst repeating your own theological stance over and over again as you have been doing up to now?

Simonline.

 

[Goinheix]

Originally Posted by Goinheix

Please, help us to found verses and passages in the Gosples that show Jesus with the atributes of God.
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You won't find them because it isn't the human creature that is Divine in the same way that it isn't the Divine Creator that is human?! It is the Messiah who simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator [YHWH] and human creature [Jesus of Nazareth]. The Scriptures speak of the Messiah as both Divine Creator and human creature.

I suggest that you start to search the Scriptures using only those terms of reference. Then you might actually find the thing for which you are searching?

Simonline.

"You wont find them" That is "we will not found any divine atribute in Jesus of Nazareth" Am I interpreting you correctly? In that case we both agree. Jesus of Nazareth is God; but nas not any divine atribute Are we saying the same? Probably we have different ways to explain how it is possible that Jesus, being God, has not divine atributes. But we do agree on the fact.

 

[Goinheix]

Not true. It is the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre - the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH - Who, as a result of the Incarnation simultaneously exists as both Eternally Divine and temporally human (i.e. the Messiah/Christ). His existence as the temporally human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is totally different to that of His Existence as the Eternally Divine Creator YHWH (which is why the Messiah/Christ has to exist as two natures - the hypostatic union). Therefore, the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is no more Divine than the Divine Creator YHWH is human?! Jesus of Nazareth has NO Divine attributes and YHWH has NO human attributes but the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre (i.e. the Messiah/Christ) has both Divine and human attributes.

Simonline.

I agree.

 

[Goinheix]

Finally, I can stop smacking my head against this brick wall?!

Yes! But the Person Who exists as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth also exists as the Divine Creator YHWH but His existence as the Divine Creator YHWH is completely different (BUT NOT SEPARATE) from that of His existence as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth.

This means that the Person existing as YHWH HAS Divine attributes but the SAME PERSON existing as Jesus of Nazareth does NOT have any Divine attributes.

Conversely, that Person existing as Jesus of Nazareth HAS human attributes but the SAME PERSON Existing as YHWH does NOT have any human attributes.

Same Person but existing in two different ways.

Simonline.

I have not a problem with that.

 

[Goinheix]

No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No!

The Son/Word(Logos)/Memre did NOT give up any of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, otherwise the Messiah/Christ is NOT Emmanuel (God with us) Matt.1:23?!

The Son gave up the way in which He as God manifests Himself to His Creation - the glory of Divinity rather than Divinity itself (Jn.17:5; Phil.2:6-7). If the Son was able to 'empty Himself' of any of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as a man then God is a liar (Mal.3:6)?!

If you insist that the Son gave up His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as a human creature then what you are saying by implication is that when God declared to Israel "I, the LORD, do not change, therefore you O Jacob [Israel] are not destroyed' (Mal.3:6) He was lying?!

Simonline.

now I am confused. You was saying that Jesus did not have divine atributes. You did also mention hypostasis. How is that when you say that Jesus didntn have divine atributes it is OK, and when I say it is wrong?

If God do not change, how is that possible that he experimented an emptying. If God did experiemced an emptying he did change. How do you explain that.

other thing. Jesus didnt give up the Glory of divinity; in fact Jesus did demostrate that glory. You have to explain kenosis as something else as giving up the glory because Jesus is the glory.

And if God emptied of his glory, then he did change. How is that God cloud change. I tell you why; because God told jacob that he dont change in his intentions, in his promesses, in his character, in his dependability. that is the contex.

But again, if God did empty himself of his Glory (or whatever else) then he changed.

 

[Goinheix]

The human creature Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the same as the Divine Creator YHWH. This means that YHWH, existing as Divine, does not exist as human whilst Jesus of Nazareth, existing as human, does not exist as Divine. YHWH is NOT a human creature and Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the Divine Creator.



The Jehovah's Witnesses are Arian heretics who preach both that YHWH exists as Unitarian (i.e. Mono-Personal rather than Tri-Personal) and deny that the Messiah is the human incarnation of YHWH.

That being said many Christians are also heretics in insisting that the human creature Jesus of Nazareth exists as both Divine and human?! Such a thing is an absurd impossibility and is not what Judeo-Christianity teaches at all (in spite of the fact that many Christians mistakenly believe that)?!

The truth is that the Second Person of the One Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH has incarnated as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth. As the Divine Creator, YHWH, the Second Person is Divine but He is NOT human. As the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, the Second Person is human but He is NOT Divine. The same Person but existing in two different ways according to two different natures, one Divine and the other human. This is the correct understanding of the Incarnation.

Simonline.

If the second person is inmutable, how could he incarnate as the human creature Jesus of Nazareth? If he was not flesh and became flesh, it is quite a mutation.

 

[Goinheix]

Originally Posted by Goinheix

The Jesus in the Gospels had not any divine atribute. can you demostrate the oposite?
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Be careful. You are drifting into heresy. You must distinguish between the Person and the two ways in which that one Person exists, as Divine Creator and human creature.

It is only existing as human creature that the Person does not exist as Divine Creator and therefore manifests no Divine attributes. Existing as Divine Creator the Person does not exist as human creature and therefore manifests all of the Divine attributes.

The Messiah both does and does not have Divine and human attributes according to His two natures. The Divine Nature has no human attributes and the human nature has no Divine attributes but it is the same Person in both cases.

Simonline.

You have say and repeat that Jesus did not have divine atributes. How is that you are not at the edge of herecy and I am?

Can you identify in the Gospels, in the tome when God was incarnated as Jesus, can you spot any divine atribute of his divine nature? can you? If you cant, then the herecy is yours.

 

[Goinheix]

This statement is nothing short of imbecilic .

I am not imbesil. End of the game.

 

[Simonline]

The Jesus in the Gospels had not any divine atribute. can you demostrate the oposite?
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Why would I want to demonstrate the opposite since I believe that the human creature is just that, a human creature and therefore should not have any divine attributes otherwise how could he possibly be a human creature when no other human creature has any Divine attributes?! You don't have any Divine attributes that you've been keeping secret, do you?! Why do you keep asking me to prove the very thing that I have always denied, i.e. that the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is Divine?!
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You have say and repeat that Jesus did not have divine atributes. How is that you are not at the edge of herecy and I am?

Because you keep insisting (contrary to Scripture) that the Son 'emptied Himself' of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as a human creature?! That is heresy. The Son did NOT 'empty Himself' of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, The Son continues to exist as the Divine Creator YHWH even whilst He also exists as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth otherwise how can YHWH [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] be both Eternal and Immutable if the Son had to stop being God in order to become human?! The very idea is insane.

Can you identify in the Gospels, in the tome when God was incarnated as Jesus, can you spot any divine atribute of his divine nature? can you? If you cant, then the herecy is yours.

What?! The Messiah, existing as the Divine Creator YHWH, is still all of the Divine attributes. He is no less Divine simply because He is now also human. The Son was (is) still sustaining the Creation and keeping it in existence (Col.1:16-17) even whilst as human He was dead for three days and three nights following His cruicifixion. If that was not true then the moment the Son died upon the cross ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING would have instantly ceased to exist and that would have been the ABSOLUTE END of absolutely everything (including God Himself)?!

Furthermore, John declares that 'no-one has gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven and is in heaven' (Jn.3:13). That reveals the Messiah's Omnipresence. Matthew also declares that 'No-one knows the Son except the Father and no-one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him' (Matt.11:27) This reveals that the Father's knowledge of the Son is the same as the Son's knowledge of the Father i.e. exhaustive (because, being Divine, they are both Omniscient) which is why Matthew says that non-one can possibly know either the Father or the Son in the same way that they know each other because their knowledge of each other is, being Omniscient, exhaustive.

How could any of this be true if the Son had 'emptied Himself' of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as a human creature?!

The Messiah is NOT Divine OR human, He IS both Divine AND human.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

I am not imbesil. End of the game.

The 'game' never started. We were never singing from the same hymnsheet.

No matter how I try and explain my position to you you repeatedly reject it and keep making theological assertions that cannot possibly be true because as I have repeatedly demonstrated they contradict reality but you still insist on repeating them as if they are the absolute truth?! How can that be anything other than imbecilic?

If you won't listen then you won't learn and you have only yourself to blame when others can neither do anything with you or for you?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Originally posted by Simonline:

Not true. It is the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre - the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH - Who, as a result of the Incarnation simultaneously exists as both Eternally Divine and temporally human (i.e. the Messiah/Christ). His existence as the temporally human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is totally different to that of His Existence as the Eternally Divine Creator YHWH (which is why the Messiah/Christ has to exist as two natures - the hypostatic union). Therefore, the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is no more Divine than the Divine Creator YHWH is human?! Jesus of Nazareth has NO Divine attributes and YHWH has NO human attributes but the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre (i.e. the Messiah/Christ) has both Divine and human attributes.

I agree.

With respect, no, you don't agree at all because you don't actually understand what I have said here otherwise you wouldn't keep insisting that the Son 'emptied Himself' of all His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth?!

Simonline.

 

[Goinheix]

Why would I want to demonstrate the opposite since I believe that the human creature is just that, a human creature and therefore should not have any divine attributes otherwise how could he possibly be a human creature when no other human creature has any Divine attributes?! You don't have any Divine attributes that you've been keeping secret, do you?! Why do you keep asking me to prove the very thing that I have always denied, i.e. that the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is Divine?!
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Then what is your problem with me? Jesus didnt haave any divine atribute. If God the Son had all his divine atributes by being God, then necessarely he did change into not having anu divine atribute. How is that posssible...by kenosis, wich is a paaul teach, and consist in emtying of the divine atributes.

 

[Goinheix]

Because you keep insisting (contrary to Scripture) that the Son 'emptied Himself' of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as a human creature?! That is heresy. The Son did NOT 'empty Himself' of His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth, The Son continues to exist as the Divine Creator YHWH even whilst He also exists as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth otherwise how can YHWH [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] be both Eternal and Immutable if the Son had to stop being God in order to become human?! The very idea is insane.
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I am not imbesil and I am not insane. You are looking at the wirrow.

I dont insist contrary to the scriptures. The scriptures tels of kenosis and you keep denaying the kenosis. Kenosis is emptying. Denaying kenosis is denaying scriptures. God the Son did never stop being God. But you recognice that God the Son while incarnated did not have any divine atribute.

What you are doing is an herecy. You are sating that Jesus and Son the God are two different persons coexisting in one. That is an herecy.

 

[Goinheix]

I am getting tired of all this nonsence. Maake your mind and tell me if God the Son did have any divine atributes after incarnation. If your answer is yes; then, please tell me where do you read of any divine aatribute in God the Son incarnaated.

 

[Goinheix]

You are splitting God the Son and Jesus of Nazareth into two different persons. One being divine and other being human. If actually you are believing that God the Son and Jesus of Nazareth are one person (wich is what I believe), then he had both natures in him: human and divine. The point is that Jesus of Nazareth who is not other than God the Son; is divine and human. At the same time; Jesus who is God, did not have any divine atributes. Jesus, who is divine and human, did not have any divine atributes. That means that his human nature did not have any divine atributes; and that his divine nature did not have any divine atribute. Because if one of his natures had divine atributes; then he had divine atributes. Can you point out of any divine atributes of any of the natures of Jesus? If you can; pelase do it. Perhaps, Jesus divine nature had divine atribuetes? Show me the berse where you read of a divine atribute in the divine nature of Jesus.

 

[Goinheix]

Originally posted by Simonline:

Not true. It is the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre - the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH - Who, as a result of the Incarnation simultaneously exists as both Eternally Divine and temporally human (i.e. the Messiah/Christ). His existence as the temporally human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is totally different to that of His Existence as the Eternally Divine Creator YHWH (which is why the Messiah/Christ has to exist as two natures - the hypostatic union). Therefore, the human creature Jesus of Nazareth is no more Divine than the Divine Creator YHWH is human?! Jesus of Nazareth has NO Divine attributes and YHWH has NO human attributes but the Son/Word(Logos)/Memre (i.e. the Messiah/Christ) has both Divine and human attributes.



With respect, no, you don't agree at all because you don't actually understand what I have said here otherwise you wouldn't keep insisting that the Son 'emptied Himself' of all His Divine attributes in order to incarnate as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth?!

Simonline.

You are saying "Jesus of Nazareth is totally different to that of His Existence as the Eternally Divine Creator YHWH" That is saying that he did change. If the same person became somethig "totally different" is because it has changes. That change is do to two actions: hypostasis as you mentiones, but also to kenosis. Both, hypostasis and kenosis inplies a change, a deep change in the second person of the Trinity.

If you dont want me to agree; then what can I do?

The posint is that because of incarnation; the second person of the Trinity did change and loose/ give up/ resigned to/ emtied of/ gives away his divine atributes. Because we have agreed that during incarnation, the second person of the Trinity did not have any divine atributes. Didnt we?