Diversities of Gifts, Minstries, Powers, Manifestation

[Spirit Compass]

After a time of reading Corinthians again, I was made aware of how little teaching I have heard in the mega-church I have been attending the last eight years about the diversity of gifts, ministries, powers, and manifestations.

It is clear from Paul's writing that he knew his ministry was that of apostle. Chapter 1 declares that, and that the church at Corinth did not lack any of His gifts. I wondered how many apostles could say that about their congregations; how many pastors could affirm that. When I took employment in the ministry of education and administration, I offered the course in a charismatic fellowship. One of the elders complained that it was unnecessary.

If you've been in any renewal or charismatic movement, you know something about the teaching that became the renewal standard, Spiritual Gifts Discovery, by C. Peter Wagner.

Have any of you seen that workshop being offered in a renewal church near you? Does your charismatic fellowship use that during the year? At a regular workshop?

The Baptist church I attended for 8 years, as a worshipper in spirit and truth, had a curriculum option which I took, and used 19 Gifts of the Spirit by Leslie Flynn, followed with a spiritual gifts assessment approved by the senior pastor. Some of the gifts from Wagners discovery text were devalued. We were told those gifts no longer existed in the modern church. My involvement waned there. I sensed any attempt to go beyond their limitation would result in disapproval. I was told that I might be able to find someone who would admit to having one of the devalued gifts, but would have to fellowship in a non-approved, off-sight location.

What has been your recent awareness? Are church leaders tired of the spiritual gifts workshops or assessment, and relying on modern technology to build up the saints as the body of Christ? Has the i-Pod webcast become more important than the workshop on spiritual gifts? Is the modern church asleep in the light?

Suggested study and meditation: http://www.christianforums.com/t7480977/ Vine & Branches

 

[Faulty]

I agree there's not enough focus and teachings on the gifts that God has provided to us, but even if we find one we deem sufficient in that area, there's always the possability that is the primary focus of their teachings, rather than the whole counsel of God, which is what is necessary.

I recall a few years back, maybe 5 years now, I was listening to a guy preaching in a church, criticizing other churches that refused to submit themselves to his apostolic leadership as apostate in the eyes of God.

I promptly did some research on that guy, C. Peter Wagner, and discovered he's a dominionist who believes he's the new Apostle Peter, and that God told him to establish his authority over all churches worldwide to bring about His second coming.

He established several groups to assist in that goal, not the least of which is the New Apostolic Reformation group (NAR), who teach what they have dubbed the '7 mountains' to further reach their goal.

I stay as far away from him as possible.

 

[Spirit Compass]

I agree there's not enough focus and teachings on the gifts that God has provided to us, but even if we find one we deem sufficient in that area, there's always the possability that is the primary focus of their teachings, rather than the whole counsel of God, which is what is necessary.

I recall a few years back, maybe 5 years now, I was listening to a guy preaching in a church, criticizing other churches that refused to submit themselves to his apostolic leadership as apostate in the eyes of God.

I promptly did some research on that guy, C. Peter Wagner, and discovered he's a dominionist who believes he's the new Apostle Peter, and that God told him to establish his authority over all churches worldwide to bring about His second coming.

He established several groups to assist in that goal, not the least of which is the New Apostolic Reformation group (NAR), who teach what they have dubbed the '7 mountains' to further reach their goal.

I stay as far away from him as possible.

Your comment was read completely. Were you a member of a charismatic fellowship in SoCal? When I was a student at a denominational college in St. Paul, Wagner's materials were used to present a method for determining and assessing spiritual gifts to those taking the college course in education administration. The class was the first of its kind I took, and revelaed to me my gifts, which are discernment, knowledge, and apostle-missionary. I pioneered a church ministry to the deaf after graduate work at Gallaudet College in Washington D. C. My ministry included contemporary worship and exhortation.

After that time my denomination began a purge of those who were influenced by such teaching and identification of gifts, and the movement was squashed. I quit that denomination and moved beyond their suppressive influence.

Wagner was past president at Fuller, and respected at that time in the concept of Church Growth Principles. It seems to me the Fuller Theological Seminary presents their mission with clarity and sincerity:

Fuller Theological Seminary, embracing the School of Theology, School of Psychology, and School of Intercultural Studies, is an evangelical, multidenominational, international, and multiethnic community dedicated to the equipping of men and women for the manifold ministries of Christ and his Church. Under the authority of Scripture we seek to fulfill our commitment to ministry through graduate education, professional development, and spiritual formation. In all of our activities, including instruction, nurture, worship, service, research, and publication, Fuller Theological Seminary strives for excellence in the service of Jesus Christ, under the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit, to the glory of the Father.​

If we believe that 'charismata' are the gifts of grace, and that they are necessary for the spiritual health and survival of the church, who should we trust to present them to the body of Christ?

 

[Faulty]

I've only been to CA 3 or 4 times and that for business trips to LA alone. I don't know what C. Peter Wagner was like before he became convinced he was the new chief apostle of God on earth, and I won't speculate on that as a result. I just know what he is now.

Personally, I'd suggest the writings and teachings of Dr. Lester Sumrall on matters like these.

 

[Tobias]

If we believe that 'charismata' are the gifts of grace, and that they are necessary for the spiritual health and survival of the church, who should we trust to present them to the body of Christ?

Ummm. The Holy Spirit?

 

[Spirit Compass]

I've only been to CA 3 or 4 times and that for business trips to LA alone. I don't know what C. Peter Wagner was like before he became convinced he was the new chief apostle of God on earth, and I won't speculate on that as a result. I just know what he is now.

Personally, I'd suggest the writings and teachings of Dr. Lester Sumrall on matters like these.

Your suggestion is noted. I have several books by Sumrall. My second source for teaching and assessment of spiritual gifts was from the previously cited source. Dr. Leslie Lynn was a pastor at Grace Conservative Baptist in New York. His refernces were used in the mega-chuch I still attend. After assessment of gifts was completed, the senior pastor's exposition was presented to the participant. The person presenting the class was not teaching as much as facilitating. She was a graduate of a Baptist college also. As a congregational pastor, Dr. Flynn was a Bapti-costal. His teaching was first published in 1974 by Chariot Victory Publishing. The back cover of his book asked the pertinent question, "Charismatic? You certainly are...if you are a Christian at all. I found that quite compelling and encouraging, since this was my first experience being a regular attender of a Baptist congregation, which seemed more like a college than a congregation. The assessment of spiritual gifts from this second source was the same as that of my first source while at Christian college. For me it seems that the assessment of spritual gifts can be a valid affirmation or confirmation of a 'grace gifting' regardless of who presents it, if the teacher or administrator is willing to permit the Holy Spirit to reveal the Mind of Christ. However, I encountered another pastor of that congregation whose intention was to eliminate certain gifts and suppress their useage and implementation, as did the presenter/administrator of that course.

Why is it that certain church leaders do not trust the Holy Spirit in the giving of gifts?

 

[Faulty]

Why is it that certain church leaders do not trust the Holy Spirit in the giving of gifts?

Dr. Sumrall was my pastor growing up. It was a fortunate experience for me as the church did operate in the gifts, as well as receiving solid teaching on all the areas of the Bible. I still have many of his book and teaching materials as a result.

Personally, I think that many church leaders shy away from teachings of the gifts because they either don't believe in them, not being raised or trained in that area, so they have basic misunderstandings in that area, or they fear being counted among those who use the gifts as a tool to abuse, defraud, or fleece th people of God as is seen in rather high profiles these last few decades.

 

[Spirit Compass]

Dr. Sumrall was my pastor growing up. It was a fortunate experience for me as the church did operate in the gifts, as well as receiving solid teaching on all the areas of the Bible. I still have many of his book and teaching materials as a result.

Personally, I think that many church leaders shy away from teachings of the gifts because they either don't believe in them, not being raised or trained in that area, so they have basic misunderstandings in that area, or they fear being counted among those who use the gifts as a tool to abuse, defraud, or fleece th people of God as is seen in rather high profiles these last few decades.

It was the book about Jihad and the Coming Oil War that opened my spirit-mind to the understanding of the Last Days. That is a book by Sumrall that took me beyond my denomincational teaching. You were blessed to have him as pastor. I didn't know he also supported and encouraged the church growth principle.

Were your gifts assessed and confirmed? What are they?

 

[Chicken Little]

Dr. Sumrall was my pastor growing up. It was a fortunate experience for me as the church did operate in the gifts, as well as receiving solid teaching on all the areas of the Bible. I still have many of his book and teaching materials as a result.

Personally, I think that many church leaders shy away from teachings of the gifts because they either don't believe in them, not being raised or trained in that area, so they have basic misunderstandings in that area, or they fear being counted among those who use the gifts as a tool to abuse, defraud, or fleece th people of God as is seen in rather high profiles these last few decades.

maybe they like clean stalls!


Pro 14:4 Where there are no oxen, the manger is empty(sometimes said the stalls are clean), but from the strength of an ox comes an abundant harvest.

they don't want the mess of children learning and working it out to adulthood. it aint always pretty and it ain't always nice..
it seems most churches seem to prefer to part the stash and say a few hail mary's and then to give them a bottle.. I guess dirty diapers are easier to clean up than stalls....

 

[Faulty]

Were your gifts assessed and confirmed?

No. I had to leave the church when I was around 14. Parents were moving to Florida and wanted me to tag along.

 

[Tobias]

It's been a really long time since I've heard anyone teach on the Gifts. I do remember taking a giftings test at the Vineyard fellowship I attended over a decade ago. As usual with tests, I remember wondering if the wording of the questions really helped people sort out what their true giftings were.

I found a similar test online: Gifted2Serve - Online Spiritual Gifts Inventory - Questionnaire

It seems to be associated with Peter Wagner. It's based on 25 spiritual gifts. I took it and came up with some scores I did not really expect to see, at least not in this order. From highest working on down, I scored:

Discerning of Spirits
Wisdom
Faith
Teaching
Voluntary poverty
Prophecy
Knowledge




... Interesting!

 

[Spirit Compass]

[exerpted, numbered for comparison response:

1) .Discerning of Spirits--We have that in common, first strength.
2). Wisdom--{MIne so low, my wife has this strength}
3). Faith--Another gift in common and among the top four {yours third, mine fourth}
4). Teaching--Also relates, but my 8th, a softer strength.
5). Voluntary poverty--The apostleship or missionary gift, also ranked in my top five.
6). Prophecy--My mid-strength.
7). Knowledge--My second strength.

... Interesting!

We have the Vineyard in common. I studied the church planting and genetic code concept closely and was a musician in a vineyard praise and worship fellowship {exhortation and empowerment}.

I am pleased that you took the test online and reported your assessment. You are engrafted.

My Church Growth and Evangelism ministry guide from Fuller/Wagner defines discernemnt or distinguishing of spirits this way:

--Ability and responsibility to distinguish between the spirt of truth and the spirit of error. I use that here in the CF forums. I was given a warning by one of the overseers that I was violating the forum rules! This seems to be a feared gift in the body of Christ, because it alerts others on the vine of a virus or bad influence.

Peace and Light, brother. Do your Divine Mission.

 

[Tobias]

Kevin,

Sounds like we have worship in common too! I was on the worship team @ the Vineyard during the 90's. It was such a blessing! I can't say I'm all that talented, but I learned to flow in the Spirit of worship.


I was curious what you think of the test. Do you agree that there are 25 gifts? Do you think Wagner's test successfully identifies which ones we operate in?

I've never heard of voluntary poverty as a gift before. It seems too though, that if it is a gift, then it would include living in a class or status of people to which you were not accustomed to, for the purpose of the Gospel. Tied in with missions, but applicable in your home country. Like someone called into being a blue collar worker, when they seem more inclined to be white collar. And living in a suitable neighborhood, even if the pay is something near the same.

Also, the test didn't seem to make much distinction between five fold ministry gifts and the others. I've also heard of "Grace Gifts", different from Gifts of the Spirit. But like I say, it's been a long time since I've heard any teaching on this. With prophecy though, there has always been several different levels of that gift, from five fold Prophets, to regular prophets, to everybody encouraged to "pray that you may prophesy."


I seriously question too, if Wagner really knows what a true apostle is!

 

[Spirit Compass]

Kevin,

Sounds like we have worship in common too! I was on the worship team @ the Vineyard during the 90's. It was such a blessing! I can't say I'm all that talented, but I learned to flow in the Spirit of worship.


1) I was curious what you think of the test. Do you agree that there are 25 gifts? Do you think Wagner's test successfully identifies which ones we operate in?

2) I've never heard of voluntary poverty as a gift before. It seems too though, that if it is a gift, then it would include living in a class or status of people to which you were not accustomed to, for the purpose of the Gospel. Tied in with missions, but applicable in your home country. Like someone called into being a blue collar worker, when they seem more inclined to be white collar. And living in a suitable neighborhood, even if the pay is something near the same.

3) Also, the test didn't seem to make much distinction between five fold ministry gifts and the others. I've also heard of "Grace Gifts", different from Gifts of the Spirit. But like I say, it's been a long time since I've heard any teaching on this. With prophecy though, there has always been several different levels of that gift, from five fold Prophets, to regular prophets, to everybody encouraged to "pray that you may prophesy."


4) I seriously question too, if Wagner really knows what a true apostle is!

My answers are numbered to correspond to your paragraphs and statements:

1) Yes, I believe all the gifts are meant for the body of Christ until his return. Yes, I also believe the test, which is a self-assessment then affirmed by another brother, a Son of God. The manifestation of these gifts can be complex, which is why the Church and its typical hierarchy want to devalue or de-emphasize other gifts.

2) The gift of poverty is actually cultural adaptation. If you are chosen and gifted to be a missionary-apostle (which is how Wagner explains the gift in his admistrator's guide) you would live among those to whom you have been sent and expect your income to be within that of those with whom you associate. No shooting stars in the kingdom would accept this kind of ministry.

3) Wagner has a Spiritual Gifts Mobilization Leader's Guide for those administering and overseeing the distribution of gifted workers in the body of Christ. The senior pastor at the Baptist mega-church I attend does this and refers to the gifts as your 'job.' I think that concept or attitude is demeaning and reveals the denominational attitude. I prefer the concept of 'A Divine Mission' and think that the devalution of the gifts given to the body of Christ makes the congregation sick and spiritually poor, even though today's mega-churches boast of their impressive size and community impact. The body needs workers, and the Spirit provides them in abundance. Prophecy is one of the complex gifts, as you have experienced.

4) Now that we are in the 21st Century I think that the apostel ministry is being transformed. Many of the end times ministries declare themselves as apostles and are personalilty-based. They have created the Egoist Movement that was forewarned in the last days. They are the shooting stars. We know them by their fruits. Wagner would not have foreseen the rise and impact of the World Wide Web, mobile telephones, and cyber-space networking. That could be a new ministry of an apostle. The forums here can manifest many gifts, and I think we are all learning how to implement our Divine Mission through it.

Peace and Light.

 

[Tobias]

2) The gift of poverty is actually cultural adaptation. If you are chosen and gifted to be a missionary-apostle (which is how Wagner explains the gift in his admistrator's guide) you would live among those to whom you have been sent and expect your income to be within that of those with whom you associate. No shooting stars in the kingdom would accept this kind of ministry.

Yes, this makes a lot more sense than "voluntary poverty."

As an MK, I see lots of people called to live the missionary lifestyle, who don't actually go to foreign countries, or receive monies from a mission board. God sends them to go and live amoungst a certain group of people, and they go. They have to learn to adapt themselves and the gospel they know to their target group, and just live and their their light shine!

 

[_Sonnie]

It's been a really long time since I've heard anyone teach on the Gifts. I do remember taking a giftings test at the Vineyard fellowship I attended over a decade ago. As usual with tests, I remember wondering if the wording of the questions really helped people sort out what their true giftings were.

I found a similar test online: Gifted2Serve - Online Spiritual Gifts Inventory - Questionnaire

It seems to be associated with Peter Wagner. It's based on 25 spiritual gifts. I took it and came up with some scores I did not really expect to see, at least not in this order. From highest working on down, I scored:

Discerning of Spirits
Wisdom
Faith
Teaching
Voluntary poverty
Prophecy
Knowledge




... Interesting!

OOO I LIKESES that quiz! It tells me I'm the stuff my pastor says I can't be! (In alphabetical order)

Apostle
Discerning of Spirits
Ekbalism (now that's a word I've never heard before!)
Intercession
Knowledge
Leadership
Miracles
Prophecy
Teaching
Wisdom

All these had the same numbers

 

[Spirit Compass]

OOO I LIKESES that quiz! It tells me I'm the stuff my pastor says I can't be! (In alphabetical order)

Apostle
Discerning of Spirits
Ekbalism (now that's a word I've never heard before!)
Intercession
Knowledge
Leadership
Miracles
Prophecy
Teaching
Wisdom

All these had the same numbers

Ekbalism is Exorcism--The special ability that God gives to certain members of the body of Christ to cast out demons and evil spirits.

What will you do now that you know the Lord of the Vineyard gave you something your current pastor will not give his approval for?

 

[Spirit Compass]

Yes, this makes a lot more sense than "voluntary poverty."

As an MK, I see lots of people called to live the missionary lifestyle, who don't actually go to foreign countries, or receive monies from a mission board. God sends them to go and live amoungst a certain group of people, and they go. They have to learn to adapt themselves and the gospel they know to their target group, and just live and their their light shine!

Since America is now a country to which people of every culture have now emigrated is now an influence the missionary finds the inspiration to enjoin and enculturate without leaving their country. Instead of going to language school, a missionary can go to a Rosetta Stone kiosk and learn the cultural language at home. That describes me!

Zimzala

 

[_Sonnie]

What will you do now that you know the Lord of the Vineyard gave you something your current pastor will not give his approval for?

For now I will stay at this church, as in this season and yet for one more I believe that's what the Lord has led me to do. A great door is being opened to me for a time. When my work here is done, I trust that He will direct my steps.

 

[Tobias]

I've been trying to put my finger on what I dislike about this test, and I think I finally got it.

When I take tests like this, I hope to discover things about myself that show me which way to go and what to expect God to be doing in my life. I want to discover what my spiritual giftings are! But this test is not designed for that, not at all. It is designed for the sole benefit of the Pastor (or "Apostle") administering the test, so that he can see what good you are to him and his ministry!

Just look at the questions. They are all about what you can already do, and other people's feedback about what you have done. There is no exploration into what God may possibly be leading you into. It's all looking for people who are already useful, trained, and prepared!

I found the test way more interesting this time when I took it, rather than 15 yrs ago when I took it the first time. Now I'm being used a lot more. But of course the only "gifts" that I have according to the test are the few I am able to actively use right now. Ones where I'm still waiting on God to lead me forth on are not "real" gifts; not according to the test, because it only counts as a gift if "people have told you" that you minister in such and such a way!