Distributism

Percivale

Sam
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https://modeldistributists.dudaone.com/
What do you think of these positions on the issues? I like most of it. If I were making a real political party of this sort I'd probably rename it the Common Freedom Party or something like that.
 

chevyontheriver

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https://modeldistributists.dudaone.com/
What do you think of these positions on the issues? I like most of it. If I were making a real political party of this sort I'd probably rename it the Common Freedom Party or something like that.
There is an actual political party, albeit a tiny new one, called the American Solidarity Party which leans distributivist. Not fully distributivist mind you. It's more of a Christian Democrat party in the mold of Konrad Adenauer's Christian Democratic Party in Germany.
 
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Percivale

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There is an actual political party, albeit a tiny new one, called the American Solidarity Party which leans distributivist. Not fully distributivist mind you. It's more of a Christian Democrat party in the mold of Konrad Adenauer's Christian Democratic Party in Germany.
Thank you for letting me know about the
American Solidarity Party, it is pretty close to my views, though I lean a bit more toward libertarian on some issues--I'm pretty centrist I guess. I think it has about the best chance of becoming successful of any minor party.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Thank you for letting me know about the
American Solidarity Party, it is pretty close to my views, though I lean a bit more toward libertarian on some issues--I'm pretty centrist I guess. I think it has about the best chance of becoming successful of any minor party.
Well, they better build a fire and get going. This is a historical moment where a third party could benefit from the mess both big parties have made for themselves.
 
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DogmaHunter

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High Fidelity

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No thank you. That is the NWO (new world order) and is not of God, call it what you like.

You don't think God would like us to work together? To help the needy?

Right now we have people sat on hoards of wealth they don't need while children die in Africa because they don't have access to basic human needs like clean drinking water, adequate nutrition, basic medical support and supplies, mosquito nets, etc.

People can vote against abortion all they want thinking that's their good deed, but if they argue against helping others in the next breath then I'm sorry, but that's hypocritical. Greed is as much a death sentence to a child as abortion is.
 
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Percivale

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Could you perhaps summarize what "distributism" is in a few short paragraphes?
It’s neither capitalism north socialism, because it doesn’t have government own or control the means of production and encourages free enterprise, but favors policies that keep wealth from getting too unequal and believes everyone has a right to some of the wealth that comes from natural resources—nobody produced the oil in the ground, for instance, so everyone should benefit from its use. It’s basically a moderate position in Western countries, since none of them are totally socialist yet they all have some welfare programs.
In an agrarian society, it would support land being owned by the people that work it rather than by the gentry, that’s the background of where distributism comes from.
 
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DogmaHunter

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It’s neither capitalism north socialism, because it doesn’t have government own or control the means of production and encourages free enterprise, but favors policies that keep wealth from getting too unequal and believes everyone has a right to some of the wealth that comes from natural resources—nobody produced the oil in the ground, for instance, so everyone should benefit from its use. It’s basically a moderate position in Western countries, since none of them are totally socialist yet they all have some welfare programs.
In an agrarian society, it would support land being owned by the people that work it rather than by the gentry, that’s the background of where distributism comes from.

Thanks.

Sounds close to what I assumed it was.
Also sounds kind of close to my own "idealistic" views of society.

I consider capitalism infinitly better then communism.
Yet, I also recognise much problems in capitalism.

I always thought that some kind of middle ground would be best.
Not necessarily in some kind of "distributism" or something. I look at it from an other angle. That angle being, some sort of limit on personal wealth.

If you ever saw the movie Entrapment (I think that's what it's called), there's a great line in there. Perhaps it's even the line that got me thinking about this. In the movie, someone wants to rob some bank or whateer and they disagree on when and how and where. One of the characters wants to hit some more risky safe, because it would fetch 7 billion instead of 1 billion in the more safer location. The line then goes: "What can you do with 7 billion, that you can't do with 1 billion?".

Then think about the list of richest people in the world. That Amazone dude with his 100 billion and stuff. It's ridiculous. In that sense, I'm in favor of some kind of law that tops personal property of at like a billion dollars or something. That's still ridiculously rich. Everything above that, should be distributed according to certain rules. For example, X% of the "surplus" could flow towards the employee's of the company in the form of yearly bonus, paid leave, etc. Another % goes to the government treasury (healthcare, education,...). Another % goes to a charity of the company's choice. Another % is reinvested in the company for whatever other positive/productive uses (like switching to cleaner energy or simply R&D etc).


I have no problem at all with employers become filthy rich. After all, they're the ones who are working (or who have worked) 80-hour weeks to jump start those businesses. They are the ones who provide others with jobs. They are the ones taking all the risks.

But indeed............ what can you do with 100 billion, that you can't do with 1 billion?

Lots of things I imagine. Mostly useless and unecessary things. Like a billon dollar boat that is used 2x per year for holidays at sea. Go to a hotel, like the rest of us...
 
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Yekcidmij

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Then think about the list of richest people in the world. That Amazone dude with his 100 billion and stuff. It's ridiculous. In that sense, I'm in favor of some kind of law that tops personal property of at like a billion dollars or something. That's still ridiculously rich.

So you would take Jeff Bezos' stuff. Why should you be able to take his stuff? Why should you be able to determine the "appropriate" level of "rich?" Isn't it just a little bit greedy to see other people's stuff and conclude that (a) you should take it by force and (b) that you should determine who gets how much of what?
 
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So you would take Jeff Bezos' stuff. Why should you be able to take his stuff? Why should you be able to determine the "appropriate" level of "rich?" Isn't it just a little bit greedy to see other people's stuff and conclude that (a) you should take it by force and (b) that you should determine who gets how much of what?

This ^^^
 
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Percivale

Sam
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So you would take Jeff Bezos' stuff. Why should you be able to take his stuff? Why should you be able to determine the "appropriate" level of "rich?" Isn't it just a little bit greedy to see other people's stuff and conclude that (a) you should take it by force and (b) that you should determine who gets how much of what?
I don’t support a limit on wealth but I do support progressive taxation. Jeff Bezos is rich not because he worked so very hard, but because he was the first one to put a good idea to use on how to use the new internet technology that the government had paid to have developed for the military to use. If he hadn’t had the idea someone else would’ve. And if the government disappeared today his wealth would disappear pretty fast too.

Another thing is that the wealthier someone is, the more of it they probably got from having more bargaining power rather than from having better ideas or working harder, which is not entirely just.
 
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Yekcidmij

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I don’t support a limit on wealth but I do support progressive taxation.

I think there's a good argument for progressive taxation myself based on the marginal value of a dollar. I'm not against taxes per se.

Jeff Bezos is rich not because he worked so very hard,

How do you know his work ethic and history?

You also don't take risk into account in your post. Should people be rewarded for taking risk?

but because he was the first one to put a good idea to use on how to use the new internet technology that the government had paid to have developed for the military to use.

Sure, the infrastructure was necessary.

If he hadn’t had the idea someone else would’ve.

Maybe. I don't know how you know this for certain though. Additionally, there's a difference between having an idea and being able to execute.

And if the government disappeared today his wealth would disappear pretty fast too.

As would everyone's. Not sure what the point is. I'm not an anarchist if that's what you're trying to argue against.

Another thing is that the wealthier someone is, the more of it they probably got from having more bargaining power rather than from having better ideas or working harder, which is not entirely just.

Not sure what the rationale here is. I'm not sure how you draw conclusions about bargaining powers of various categories of your choice. I'm also not sure why or how you conclude things about the work ethic and idea generation of entire categories.
 
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Percivale

Sam
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I think there's a good argument for progressive taxation myself based on the marginal value of a dollar. I'm not against taxes per se.



How do you know his work ethic and history?

You also don't take risk into account in your post. Should people be rewarded for taking risk?



Sure, the infrastructure was necessary.



Maybe. I don't know how you know this for certain though. Additionally, there's a difference between having an idea and being able to execute.



As would everyone's. Not sure what the point is. I'm not an anarchist if that's what you're trying to argue against.



Not sure what the rationale here is. I'm not sure how you draw conclusions about bargaining powers of various categories of your choice. I'm also not sure why or how you conclude things about the work ethic and idea generation of entire categories.
My arguments are all just in favor of progressive taxation and against the idea that people have an inalienable right to every dollar that they can make. Good ideas, risk, and such deserve reward, but not necessarily 100% of the reward that they produce.
About bargaining power, it doesn’t seem quite fair that richer people get the better end of the deal because they are more able to walk away and wait for a better deal than those who, for instance, have to take the first job they can get, to pay the bills. That’s not something that legislation can eliminate, but it is a reason that progressive taxation is not unfair.
 
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Yekcidmij

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and against the idea that people have an inalienable right to every dollar that they can make.

Well, I think everyone has the right to the product of their own labor. If someone else has a right to the product of your labor it sounds like some form of slavery.

Good ideas, risk, and such deserve reward, but not necessarily 100% of the reward that they produce.

Why should you have a right to the product of someone else's labor?

About bargaining power, it doesn’t seem quite fair that richer people get the better end of the deal because they are more able to walk away and wait for a better deal than those who, for instance, have to take the first job they can get, to pay the bills. That’s not something that legislation can eliminate, but it is a reason that progressive taxation is not unfair.

I'm still not sure what your point here is. I don't follow the argument, though I don't disagree that progressive taxation isn't necessarily unfair.

I would say progressive tax can be fair (vs a flat tax) because the maginal value of a dollar is worth more to the poor than the rich. Take extreme cases: A multi-billionaire vs someone making nothing. To the multi-billionaire, $100 doesn't add much in terms of marginal value, but to the person making nothing, $100 is orders of magnitude more than their income. So it wouldn't be right to institute a flat tax since 25% of income to the poor person is valued differently (in terms of purchasing power at least) than 25% of income to a multi-billionaire. To the poor person, the next dollar is worth more than the next dollar is worth to a rich person.

An analogy might be water. If you're in the desert and have no water, the marginal value of water (that next drop of water) is worth orders of magnitude more to you than the next drop of water if you lived next to a fresh water lake.

There are other arguments too, I just think that one is good.
 
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