Disprove Calvinist Soteriology

[student ad x]

Last I checked Calvinists are a minority of all christians. Heck, calvinists are even a minority within evangelicalism. Same as churches of Christ who claim they are the only christians. small minority...and there are reasons for that...

An appeal to emotion...... or even more directly an argumentum ad populum

 

[Hupomone10]

For a person to set out to disprove calvinism, they are set out on a quest to disprove the Gospel of God. You must understand, that calvinism is just a name that men have given truth of scripture.

I think that's the kind of closed-minded arrogance the previous writer was referring to. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and what you will do with that.

We all know the gospel was around before Calvin enlightened us, and before those who followed him and exaggerated his teachings enlightened us further.

I am simple folk, and somehow I believe the gospel can be seen in the scriptures without an arminian or a calvinist telling me how to interpret it before I read it.

Perhaps people would be better off just reading the gospel of John and deciding what they will do with it instead of listening to us.

Just a thought.

 

[Hammster]

I think that's the kind of closed-minded arrogance the previous writer was referring to. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and what you will do with that.

We all know the gospel was around before Calvin enlightened us, and before those who followed him and exaggerated his teachings enlightened us further.

I am simple folk, and somehow I believe the gospel can be seen in the scriptures without an arminian or a calvinist telling me how to interpret it before I read it.

Perhaps people would be better off just reading the gospel of John and deciding what they will do with it instead of listening to us.

Just a thought.

So yours is the correct view? Just read it? Do we defer to you if we have questions?

 

[Hammster]

Last I checked Calvinists are a minority of all christians. Heck, calvinists are even a minority within evangelicalism. Same as churches of Christ who claim they are the only christians. small minority...and there are reasons for that...

What are those reasons?

 

[Hupomone10]

So yours is the correct view? Just read it? Do we defer to you if we have questions?

That people can come to Christ without the benefit of an arminian or calvinist education or slant, yes I believe this is the correct view, concerning that anyway. It may be something else to which you were referring.

That the gospel is the work of Christ on the cross I believe is true. All that remains is my response to it.

That the gospel for the Christian is the further work of Christ on the cross I believe is true; and all that remains is my response to it. Of this much I'm pretty sure.
H.

 

[Hammster]

That people can come to Christ without the benefit of an arminian or calvinist education or slant, yes I believe this is the correct view, concerning that anyway.

Actually, that would be the view of most Calvinists I know. However, we aren't witnessing on this thread. It isn't an outreach thread. It is a discussion thread. So we will continue to do so, each presenting their views.

 

[anthony55]

That people can come to Christ without the benefit of an arminian or calvinist education or slant, yes I believe this is the correct view, concerning that anyway. It may be something else to which you were referring.

That the gospel is the work of Christ on the cross I believe is true. All that remains is my response to it.

That the gospel for the Christian is the further work of Christ on the cross I believe is true; and all that remains is my response to it. Of this much I'm pretty sure.
H.

It should be truthfully emphasized who the work of the cross was for, and what it accomplished for them.

 

[anthony55]

hupo:

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and what you will do with that.

It is more than just that. The gospel explains for whom the death, burial, and resurrection is for, and what it accomplished for them.

When paul stated that Christ died for our sins according to scripture, He was referring to the called of God, the church of God, and not the whole world.

 

[heymikey80]

Then how about teaching your fellow Calvinists to think outside the box. Like the two fellas who posted just above me (and below you). They imply that those who aren't Calvinist are blind, dead, and too stoopid.

there is no conversation in that, just declaration. like some churches of Christ saying they are the only christians. calvinists may give lip service that others are christians, but they clearly treat and perceive them - us - as 2nd class citizens.

I'm sorry?

As someone whose primary mentors were not Calvinists, I take exception. My early training was in the hands of a Baptist with no particular view of salvation (and thus ... semi-Pelagian) and a Wesleyan with a highly-developed but personal opinion on salvation (and thus, Wesleyan Arminian). As my theology developed, I was encouraged to read Scripture for what it said. I brought plenty to their attention and listened carefully to their answers. At the point of looking at Romans 8 -- I thought I was alone in what I was thinking. Later I found out Calvinists shared what I had concluded.

Later on a teacher/pastor of mine, a Calvinist, asked questions that I confirmed were problematic issues, through these mentors. Everyone seemed to be pretty open about what they were saying. No one was truly pressing me to become "their" theology.

Most Calvinists just find non-Calvinists less precise about their theology, and thus not as accurate. It's when anti-Calvinists propose to accuse Calvinism of being wrong or heretical at specific points that my response is raised. I've no beef with non-Calvinists for being non-Calvinists. It's that specific anti-Calvinists propose to attack Calvinism on 500-year-old allegations that weren't true in the first place.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Last I checked Calvinists are a minority of all christians. Heck, calvinists are even a minority within evangelicalism. Same as churches of Christ who claim they are the only christians. small minority...and there are reasons for that...

So... does this follow for all minorities? I mean it must if that is the reason why there are minorities in the first place. What about Christianity in general? We are a minority of the world population. Is that because we are wrong, or maybe less credible?

Terrible argument, IMO. If anything, being in the minority and constantly being lashed out against (for ridiculous claims...) assures me even more that this is the right place to be.

 

[anthony55]

One cannot properly preach Christ and Him crucified with out preaching exactly who Christ is [ biblically] and what His crucifixion means, who it was for, and what it accomplished !

For instance, one cannot preach Jesus died for our sins, without elucidating who Paul means by our sins.

1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This would be limited to the sins of the church, the called, the chosen as he calls them in 1 cor 1:

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:


23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

[Hupomone10]

It should be truthfully emphasized who the work of the cross was for, and what it accomplished for them.

Yes it should.

2 Cor 5:15

and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

 

[Hupomone10]

hupo:



It is more than just that. The gospel explains for whom the death, burial, and resurrection is for, and what it accomplished for them.

When Paul stated that Christ died for our sins according to scripture, He was referring to the called of God, the church of God, and not the whole world.

1 John 2:2

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

We can discuss that here, among ourselves, the called of God, but beyond that it is useless.

It is useless to discuss with someone on the outside that Christ's work is only for the church and not the whole world. And for those on the inside, they have already partaken of Christ, are already called of Christ, and should know that what He did is for them.

 

[Hupomone10]

One cannot properly preach Christ and Him crucified with out preaching exactly who Christ is [ biblically] and what His crucifixion means, who it was for, and what it accomplished !

Who He is, I agree with you. What His crucifixion means, I agree with you.
What it accomplished, I agree with you.

Who it was for; that is just guess-work. It resides in the mind of God, individually anyway.

Only by faith do you know it is for you.

 

[anthony55]

hupo:

Who it was for; that is just guess-work.

Maybe for you it is guess work, but not for me, He died for His Sheep Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

 

[anthony55]

hupo:

1 John 2:2

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

The whole world of believers.

 

[anthony55]

Yes it should.

2 Cor 5:15

and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

He died for all the called, the chosen , the church of God 2 cor 1:

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

 

[Hupomone10]

hupo:



Maybe for you it is guess work, but not for me, He died for His Sheep Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Ant:



Other than by evidence of faith and works, who his sheep are and who they're not is guess work.


But unless I miss my guess, you're judging by the specific doctrinal peculiarities they believe to determine God's sheep, particularly those you hold, that you figure those are God's sheep. Am I right?

 

[Hupomone10]

hupo:



The whole world of believers.

Ant:

Again, you may add that if you so desire. That's not what it says, and never will be what it says.

I know you will say that is what it means. And I will say then why didn't God say what He meant. etc, etc.

We've been down this road before. I simply take God at His word without adding anything to it. I'm on good ground doing that.

You have no gospel to offer to the unbeliever.

 

[anthony55]

hupo:

Again, you may add that if you so desire.

I know, because that is what it means.