Displeasing God

[Rachel20]

Does Paul love his wife? If so, he decrees for her to be quiet, and not to teach. Isn't this a form of oppression?

Paul was celibate and remained unmarried. He advised others to do the same, especially the young unmarried women Have a nice day.

 

[cvanwey]

Paul was celibate and remained unmarried. He advised others to do the same, especially the young unmarried women Have a nice day.

Thank you for completely wasting everyone's time. As I told you earlier, I provided a "steel man", in the sense that Paul was only speaking about the personal women in his specific life. However, we all know better. Paul states that women are to remain quiet, not teach, and to not have authority over men. These are the set boundaries. This also coincides with other Verse. He is merely regurgitating and reconfirming other Verses.

I'll ask all Christians.... Does God agree with Paul's decree, as it relates to (1 Timothy 2)?

 

[Rachel20]

Thank you for completely wasting everyone's time.

I think that honor is yours. You anointed yourself arbitrator of relevancy in post #39. Maybe you are since it's your OP. But then you should expect the result when you shut someone down like that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is incorrect. As stated, twice now, God's law states that man has dominion over woman. Furthermore, Paul states that women in general, not just his spouse and children, are to follow such law. Thus, when Paul decrees the following:

"11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

(3rd request) Does God agree? I'll answer for you, since you refuse.

The answer is likely yes. God agrees, as the rules go as follows: God > Christ > man > woman.



Thanks for the unfalsifiable sermon.

I'd say that I'm not sure God agrees with the interpretation of 1 Timothy 2 that is often hoisted up and revered, even at times by Christian men within various Christian Churches, as on outcome of treating the Bible as on object of "simple reading." But so goes the all too typical handling of the Bible and thereby, of women.

 

[cvanwey]

I think that honor is yours. You anointed yourself arbitrator of relevancy in post #39.

Funny. You acknowledged it's relevancy, when you did not dispute the additional Verse I provided, and then only conceded the point entirely there-after. I do not claim to be THE arbitrator of anything. I'm asking if you agree, according to the way you read Scripture? Apparently, you do. I'm asking for your honest assessment of the Text.

And it seems as though, rather than to admit, that it seems highly likely God agrees with Paul's decree, you danced around it (5 times and counting).

Maybe you are since it's your OP. But then you should expect the result when you shut someone down like that.

I also find this response interesting. You stated that God does not give men a blank check. I agreed. Paul's decree is not a blank check. He simply tells women what they can and cannot do. It's not like it also states the men may beat them or something....

I asked if commanding women to remain quiet, and not to teach, is a form of oppression? Again, you did not answer. It seems it is you whom are shutting me down

 

[Aussie Pete]

Why should I? We already know that all fall short of God's standard, no matter who you are. I'm saying that women who teach, women who do not remain quiet, and women who lead men, appear to raise discord with God (at some categorical level). As I stated in the OP, I'm not sure if this discord is designated exclusively to church, and/or in school, and/or in employment, and/or the military, and/or the household, or maybe all of them?



If (1 Timothy 2:8-15) is correct, then I'm right, and it's you whom are wrong. Are you saying this is not what God meant? If so, what does He actually mean here? At some categorical level, women are to remain quiet, not have authority over mean, and not teach.



Then maybe you are a "cafeteria" Christian?



You can believe whatever you'd like. But if God is speaking about teaching His Word, at some level, it looks as though God is perpetually displeased with what she is doing.

What utter rubbish. If God is displeased with her, I'd love to be that out of favour with God. Women are exhorted to teach other women. If men get blessed, then that's a bonus.

What do you know about Joyce Meyer? Do you know her childhood? Do you know how many broken women she's helped to restore? I know personally three women who have been lifted out of depression by her teaching. Many of the principles she espouses are not gender specific. Like I said, no one is compelled to listen to her.

I don't know what you mean by "cafeteria Christian".

By the way, it's "Who are wrong", not "whom".

It is dangerous to take scriptures in isolation and make a doctrine out of them. That's how the false prosperity type gospel and it's associated misunderstandings arose.

Finally, do yourself a favour. Read God's word.
Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him in and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behaviour, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children.......

If a woman is rebellious and independent of her husband, then she is disqualified as a minister. If husbands fail to love their wives as Christ loves the church, they are way out of order also.

To clarify my position, I would not attend a church where to woman is the pastor. I'm also against the idea that a woman automatically becomes a pastor if her husband is appointed to the role. However, Priscilla and Aquila obviously worked as partners. Dismissing women because they are women is unbiblical.

 

[cvanwey]

What utter rubbish.

Thank you

If God is displeased with her, I'd love to be that out of favour with God.

I feel you are missing my point. Please carefully re-read what I stated to you in my previous response (post #24).

Women are exhorted to teach other women. If men get blessed, then that's a bonus.

Can women lead men? Can women be the authority over men? According to 1 Timothy 2, seems not to be the case? I'm not quite sure in what specific capacity/category however?

What do you know about Joyce Meyer? Do you know her childhood? Do you know how many broken women she's helped to restore? I know personally three women who have been lifted out of depression by her teaching. Many of the principles she espouses are not gender specific. Like I said, no one is compelled to listen to her.

I already answered here. I don't think I need to really "know" her any better. The point of this thread is to ask if she is displeasing God, with her ministry? It's quite possible she might be? You claim she is not. However, we have Scripture to demonstrate otherwise - (to remain quiet, not teach, and not have authority over men).

I don't know what you mean by "cafeteria Christian".

I'll let you figure this one out. You can then see if your actions qualify.

By the way, it's "Who are wrong", not "whom".

This isn't an English Lit. class It's an informal forum arena. Maybe I should start pointing out your type-o's

It is dangerous to take scriptures in isolation and make a doctrine out of them. That's how the false prosperity type gospel and it's associated misunderstandings arose.

The provided Verses (1 Timothy 2:11-15) look pretty dang clear. We also have other Verses to substantiate or reinforce such assertion(s). From your perspective, at worst, the Bible adheres to the cited Verses, without any reservation and with complete clarity, as asserted in (1 Tim. 2). For you, at best, you have conflict to address.

Finally, do yourself a favour. Read God's word.

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him in and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behaviour, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children.......

I find this response odd, since you just told me not to cherry pick Scripture?

If a woman is rebellious and independent of her husband, then she is disqualified as a minister. If husbands fail to love their wives as Christ loves the church, they are way out of order also.

Can a single woman be the head of a church? We know a single man can.

To clarify my position, I would not attend a church where to woman is the pastor.

(See the bold text above). BTW, it's 'the', and not 'to'.

Why would you not attend a church, where the woman is the pastor?

Dismissing women because they are women is unbiblical.

And yet, such passages look to exist within the Bible. Furthermore, dismissing churches, because the pastors are women, is you admitting you have no other reason not to attend, other than "because they are women".

 

[Aussie Pete]

Thank you



I feel you are missing my point. Please carefully re-read what I stated to you in my previous response (post #24).



Can women lead men? Can women be the authority over men? According to 1 Timothy 2, seems not to be the case? I'm not quite sure in what specific capacity/category however?



I already answered here. I don't think I need to really "know" her any better. The point of this thread is to ask if she is displeasing God, with her ministry? It's quite possible she might be? You claim she is not. However, we have Scripture to demonstrate otherwise - (to remain quiet, not teach, and not have authority over men).



I'll let you figure this one out. You can then see if your actions qualify.



This isn't an English Lit. class It's an informal forum arena. Maybe I should start pointing out your type-o's



The provided Verses (1 Timothy 2:11-15) look pretty dang clear. We also have other Verses to substantiate or reinforce such assertion(s). From your perspective, at worst, the Bible adheres to the cited Verses, without any reservation and with complete clarity, as asserted in (1 Tim. 2). For you, at best, you have conflict to address.



I find this response odd, since you just told me not to cherry pick Scripture?



Can a single woman be the head of a church? We know a single man can.



(See the bold text above). BTW, it's 'the', and not 'to'.

Why would you not attend a church, where the woman is the pastor?



And yet, such passages look to exist within the Bible. Furthermore, dismissing churches, because the pastors are women, is you admitting you have no other reason not to attend, other than "because they are women".

I take issue with your blanket statement, especially regarding Joyce Meyer. Perhaps my response is too subtle for you.
1. Men are to head up the household. It helps to look up the word "husband". It does not mean to dominate and subjugate.
2. Elders in the church are supposed to be married men whose house is in order. There are plenty of elders who fail this test dismally
3. Pastors given far more prominence that the NT allows. Church governance should be by elders, who should also be able to teach.
4. Prophets can be male or female
5. Teachers can be male or female. They are gifts to the body generally and not the local church. They have no authority in that sense. However, if they are godly people it is foolish to ignore them.
6. Husbands and wives can minister as a team, as is obvious from the word.
7. Christians should submit to one another. What I mean by this is that each Christian is called by God for a particular ministry and purpose. The "pyramid" structure of leadership is false and has led to passive Christians who take little responsibility for their own spiritual growth.
8. Women are permitted, no, exhorted to teach other women. Or is that scripture too opaque for you to understand?
9. Evangelists can be male or female. Psalm 68:11

 

[cvanwey]

Please keep in mind what my OP essentially asks. God seems to disapprove of women having authority over men. Not sure whether it be in church, the household, the military, in school, at work, and/or other? God seems to stress that women are not to lead men, and are to remain quiet.

I will again address all your points. Please address them this time around?

1. Men are to head up the household. It helps to look up the word "husband". It does not mean to dominate and subjugate.

Why can't women head up the household?

2. Elders in the church are supposed to be married men whose house is in order. There are plenty of elders who fail this test dismally

Can a woman, in any capacity, be an elder? If not, why not?

3. Pastors given far more prominence that the NT allows. Church governance should be by elders, who should also be able to teach.

I don't disagree that people do what they want. My question remains, why does women leaders displease God?

4. Prophets can be male or female

As I stated in my prior response, for which you've ignored... For you, at worst, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 means exactly what it looks to say. At best, it actually means something else. But what else could these Verses mean?

5. Teachers can be male or female. They are gifts to the body generally and not the local church. They have no authority in that sense. However, if they are godly people it is foolish to ignore them.

At best, looks like you can argue that the women can teach other women exclusively how to be better wives/etc. Where-as, only the men can be the true lead teachers of all.

6. Husbands and wives can minister as a team, as is obvious from the word.

I asked this before... Can a single woman be a leader? If you are a Catholic, for example, the head priest is not married. Furthermore, does the male pastor have to be married? What if he's a widow? What if she is a widow?

7. Christians should submit to one another. What I mean by this is that each Christian is called by God for a particular ministry and purpose. The "pyramid" structure of leadership is false and has led to passive Christians who take little responsibility for their own spiritual growth.

At the top of this pyramid, can a woman be the leader?

8. Women are permitted, no, exhorted to teach other women. Or is that scripture too opaque for you to understand?

Same response as before... At best, looks like you can argue that the women can teach other women how to be better wives/etc. Where-as, only the men can be the true lead teachers.

9. Evangelists can be male or female. Psalm 68:11

The Verse states "11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it."

The above Verse has no direct mention that woman too can be the leader. Please try again.

Also, another unanswered question:

Why would you not attend a church, where the woman is the pastor?

 

[Matt5]

It's difficult to know what to say to someone who regards women the way that you do, but as you seem to see things biblically, I'm not that surprised.

Maybe we should look at just one thing: demographic decline.

A woman leading a church probably means years of education and focus on career. No problem, right? Except there is little time for children. Too much of that means a broad demographic decline across a country.

Well, a broad demographic decline is a good thing because there are too many people on the planet. We can just do that for a few hundred years then turn it around. All is good. Except there is no known way to turn it around short of some kind of war where the survivors are reduced to subsistance farming.

 

[cvanwey]

Maybe we should look at just one thing: demographic decline.

A woman leading a church probably means years of education and focus on career. No problem, right? Except there is little time for children. Too much of that means a broad demographic decline across a country.

I'm sorry, but I have to respond here...

1. Does this apply to all careers, or just leading in church?
2. If the woman wants to lead, can't the father be the stay-at-home-dad? The mother can still see her kids daily after work.
3. Furthermore, doesn't the Bible tell His readers that God comes first, even before your own biological family?
4. Not all women would want to lead any way. There exists only so many churches. Why can't the ones that want to, lead?

 

[Matt5]

I'm sorry, but I have to respond here...

1. Does this apply to all careers, or just leading in church?
2. If the woman wants to lead, can't the father be the stay-at-home-dad? The mother can still see her kids daily after work.
3. Furthermore, doesn't the Bible tell His readers that God comes first, even before your own biological family?
4. Not all women would want to lead any way. There exists only so many churches. Why can't the ones that want to, lead?

When the Bible says don't do X sometimes the real problem is not with X but the next level up.

The problem with women leading the church is not so much about women leading the church but rather everybody else. Another example, the problem with gay marriage is not gay marriage but rather everybody else.

It doesn't matter if all women leading the church have 10 kids each with stay-at-home dads. What matters is what all the other women do after seeing those women leaders. The reality is, and we can see that today, if women focus on education and career then they have too few kids.

Gay marriage is the other way around. Society already decided that marriage was not about kids. So why not legalize gay marriage? Gay marriage is just a sign that the rest of society has gone off the rails. Increasingly for straight people, why get married and why have kids?

What if all gay couples had kids or adopted them? But the damage had already been done even before gay marriage was legalized. It's not gays or gay marriage. It's about all the others.

God wouldn't allow Jews to build personal altars out of brick. They had to be made out of stone. He didn't hate bricks. The problem was the next level up.

 

[cvanwey]

When the Bible says don't do X sometimes the real problem is not with X but the next level up.

The problem with women leading the church is not so much about women leading the church but rather everybody else. Another example, the problem with gay marriage is not gay marriage but rather everybody else.

It is said that ~2-5% of the general population is gay. Regardless of if gay marriage remains legal or not, reproduction would not suffer. Gay physical relations cannot procreate. 2-5% will not have kids by traditional means regardless. Some have and will continue to marry the opposite sex, out of devotion for their parents, religious beliefs, and/or other. However, they are essentially denying themselves their fundamental attraction to the same sex. But again, this is a small percentage, verses the vast majority who are attracted to the opposite sex.

It doesn't matter if all women leading the church have 10 kids each with stay-at-home dads. What matters is what all the other women do after seeing those women leaders. The reality is, and we can see that today, if women focus on education and career then they have too few kids.

I have an honest question for you? Is this THE reason God tells women they cannot lead in Church? ... Reminder of God's explicit given reason(s):

"13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

Gay marriage is the other way around. Society already decided that marriage was not about kids. So why not legalize gay marriage? Gay marriage is just a sign that the rest of society has gone off the rails. Increasingly for straight people, why get married and why have kids?

Again, a small population is gay. Homosexuality has been around just as long as heterosexuality. One of the main differences now, is that Christians can no longer legally stone gay people to death.

"13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

It's not gays or gay marriage. It's about all the others.

Prove it.

 

[com7fy8]

Does this sound reasonable?

The scripture does say Adam came first and Eve was the one deceived, and therefore the woman should not have authority over the man. I think this is a pretty straightforward interpretation.

Even so . . . how about 1 Corinthians 7:4? This says the wife has power over her husband's body. That would be a way of having authority over him, I would think.

 

[cvanwey]

The scripture does say Adam came first and Eve was the one deceived, and therefore the woman should not have authority over the man. I think this is a pretty straightforward interpretation.

Even so . . . how about 1 Corinthians 7:4? This says the wife has power over her husband's body. That would be a way of having authority over him, I would think.

The Verse you cited is speaking about physical relations with one another. I'm asking if a woman can lead/teach in church, and/or the military, and/or in school, and/or the household, other?

You agreed with me that the translation is pretty straight forward.

Sounds like you are in agreement with God, that women cannot be leaders in church, and/or the military, and/or in school, and/or the household, other. And when they do, this displeases God.

Thanks

 

[com7fy8]

Sounds like you are in agreement with God, that women cannot be leaders in church, and/or the military, and/or in school, and/or the household, other. And when they do, this displeases God.

I consider there is more to it, than this.

What do you see, in the qualifications of a man who desires to be a "bishop"? > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

 

[cvanwey]

I consider there is more to it, than this.

What do you see, in the qualifications of a man who desires to be a "bishop"? > 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

Nothing in this response addresses what I stated, and you likely also affirm. God would be displeased if a woman lead in a church, right?

I'll ask you a follow up question...

In the provided passage, can you be a female? Or, do you have to be a male?

 

[com7fy8]

In the provided passage, can you be a female? Or, do you have to be a male?

The man needs his wife. So, you need both as a couple. Before the couple becomes qualified to pastor, first he needs to become "blameless" the way God's love makes us blameless. And his wife helps him to learn how to love, in marriage, and get real correction > Hebrews 12:4-14 > so he becomes "blameless" the way God's love cures our character. She helps him get this real correction. Plus, they learn with each other, how to relate in Christian marriage . . . so then they as a mature married couple can pastor other married people and singles so they can discover how to share in marriage.

So, you need both . . . not just a man.

And it is written >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

He leads by example, then. And his wife and children are included in his example . . . of how to care for and lead people in our Father's family caring and sharing way in marriage. So, they need to be mature in their marriage, so now they can relate with and help other couples . . . doing this with one another as God's example of Christian marriage.

 

[cvanwey]

The man needs his wife. So, you need both as a couple. Before the couple becomes qualified to pastor, first he needs to become "blameless" the way God's love makes us blameless. And his wife helps him to learn how to love, in marriage, and get real correction > Hebrews 12:4-14 > so he becomes "blameless" the way God's love cures our character. She helps him get this real correction. Plus, they learn with each other, how to relate in Christian marriage . . . so then they as a mature married couple can pastor other married people and singles so they can discover how to share in marriage.

So, you need both . . . not just a man.

And it is written >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

He leads by example, then. And his wife and children are included in his example . . . of how to care for and lead people in our Father's family caring and sharing way in marriage. So, they need to be mature in their marriage, so now they can relate with and help other couples . . . doing this with one another as God's example of Christian marriage.

You don't seem to be getting it? If a female was to lead a church, would God be displeased?