Dispensations

[Ebb]

I'm a little confused as to what your getting at... OT saints looked forward to the Messiah to have faith in who was to come..... We look back having faith in what was done...

Please show me where the OT saints had to believe in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ to have eternal life in Christ....

Read Romans. And Ephesians and Hebrews, too. The grace of Christ that would be provided to the OT saints was progressively revealed. (The progressive dispy's have this part right.)



Going back to the following quote, I would make the following correction....

Well it means you only have to do this to be saved...

Eph 2:8-9 KJV

(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
​

...instead of this.

Mat 19:16-21 KJV

(16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
(17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
​

By implication, in Matt 19:16-21 you changed "that I may have eternal life" to "that I may be saved".

There is a big difference. Read it in its context. To be saved, you are first lost. We are all lost, needing to be saved. The only one not needing to be saved is God. The only one who is good is God (verse 17). And the only one who can keep the commandments is God.

And the only way we are saved and have eternal life is by the imputed righteousness of Christ, who kept the commandments.

 

[Ebb]

But be cautious, for the the extreme dispensationalist thinks the law is done away with. This is the error of Antinomianism. On the other extreme is Legalism.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

 

[@@Paul@@]

But be cautious, for the the extreme dispensationalist thinks the law is done away with. This is the error of Antinomianism. On the other extreme is Legalism.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

I'm not sure where I would fit in under the "extreme dispensationalist" category. I eat shellfish, pork and I mix all kinds of fabrics; Do I have “eternal life”?

[/size][/font]
Read Romans. And Ephesians and Hebrews, too. The grace of Christ that would be provided to the OT saints was progressively revealed. (The progressive dispy's have this part right.)

Going back to the following quote, I would make the following correction....

By implication, in Matt 19:16-21 you changed "that I may have eternal life" to "that I may be saved".

There is a big difference. Read it in its context. To be saved, you are first lost. We are all lost, needing to be saved. The only one not needing to be saved is God. The only one who is good is God (verse 17). And the only one who can keep the commandments is God.

And the only way we are saved and have eternal life is by the imputed righteousness of Christ, who kept the commandments.

Yes to be saved would mean you are first lost… A Jew was not born into this world lost and without hope.

There is a big difference between being saved / eternal life under the Law and being given those things freely under Grace…

Since i'm really lazy today...

http://www.opendoorbaptist.com/articles/savunlaw.htm
<snip>
...Furthermore, to teach that Old Testament saints look forward to the cross for salvation is to relegate the Disciples to an unsaved position while they preached the gospel of the Kingdom. That is unthinkable. Notice in Luke 4 that Jesus preached the gospel. The gospel preached by Jesus and the Twelve did not contain one word about His death, burial and resurrection. (See Matt. 4:23; 9:35; 11:5; 24:14; 26:13; Mark 1:1, 14-15; 13:10; 14:9; 16:15. Luke 4:18; 7:22; 9:6; 20:1.) The most difficult thing in the world is for a born again man, who has defended the false idea that there is only one gospel in the whole Bible, to admit he was wrong and accept the fact that there are several gospels throughout the Word of God! The verses above are clear that Jesus and John the Baptist preached a gospel. Also, Jesus commissioned His Twelve and sent them to go and preach the gospel of the Kingdom. But the irrefutable truth is that that gospel did not contain ONE WORD ABOUT THE DEATH BURRIAL OR RESURRECTION OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

It is true that faith is required for salvation in every dispensation. However, the object of that faith is not always the same. It is different in practically every dispensation. The blood of Jesus Christ has always been, and ever will be, the basis of salvation. However, His blood was not the object of the believer’s faith in other dispensations. THEY DIDN’T BELIEVE HE WAS GOING TO DIE!
<snip>
...It seems unlikely that a Jew could be saved without following the requirements prescribed by the Law since destruction and curses came upon those who ignored it. (Leviticus 26:14-17,29-39; Deut. 27:15-26; Deut. 28:15-62; Deut. 29:20; Deut. 31:17)
Summary:
* Abraham was saved by faith without circumcision. Righteousness was imputed to him. Paul uses this to illustrate how Christ’s righteousness, apart from works, is imputed to the believer under Grace.
* David’s statement of the blessings of the man whose iniquities were not imputed to him is also used to illustrate what imputation by grace is.
* David, himself, was an example of one whose iniquities were not imputed to him during his lifetime.
* The nation of Israel also experienced the grace of God many times by not having their sins imputed to them.
* No one could be saved by the Law, for no one could keep it. However, that was no excuse for not observing it.
* Other laws were in place to restore those who broke the Law.
* We are clearly told, in this dispensation, what to believe in order to be saved.
* Moses would have told the seeking sinner to "believe God and keep His commandments." "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccles. 12:13-14
* Thus we conclude that faith and the works of the Law were required, under the dispensation of the Law, in order for the Jew to be saved.
Salvation always involved faith. However, the object and requirements of that faith were not always the same. Adam was not required to believe what Noah believed. Noah was not required to believe the same thing as Abraham. Nor was Abraham required to believe what Moses had to believe. The Twelve were required to believe and do something beyond what Moses believed. None of the above believed what you and I believe in order to be saved. In addition, belief and obedience will be different in the Tribulation and during the Kingdom age. Things that differ are not the same.
​

I do not believe salvation has always been by the same exact method. Which is one of the differences between the dispensation of Law and of Grace...

 

[bleechers]

But be cautious, for the the extreme dispensationalist thinks the law is done away with. This is the error of Antinomianism. On the other extreme is Legalism.

This is a misrepresentation. The Law never had anything to do with Gentiles or with salvation. It is not done away with in the sense that it is destroyed, rather in the sense that it was fulfilled.

This is absolutely no place for the law in grace (Rom 11:6). Law is the power of sin.

This is the error of Antinomianism. On the other extreme is Legalism.

No, the choice is not "lawlessness" or "some law". That is a false choice. The choice is the law of faith or the Law. The second cannot save and was never meant to save, It cannot be discected (James 2:10). There's not some of the law that is not binding and some of the law that is. It is either all binding or not at all. In grace, it is not binding at all. Adam had no Law, Abraham came before the Law, etc.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

verse 30: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

In other words, the Law is of no consequence in salvation. You don't begin salvation by the Law so you certainly do not follow the law after salvation. The law is wriiten on the heart. It is not a Mosaic code that we split into stuff we still do in the NT and stuff we don't do. You cannot treat the Law like that.

Galatians 3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


The Law was never for the Gentile, why would seek to put saved Gentiles under the Law after salvation. "You who wish to be under the Law, do you not hear the Law?"

Gal 3:10 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You cannot pick and choose what parts of the law you want to bind on people. It is either all or nothing. If it is all, then you have fallen from grace.

Am I "lawless"? No. I have the Law of Christ and the Law of Liberty in grace. The Mosaic law is there for my learning, but it was never binding on me before salvation and it is not binding on me now. You are dangerously close to the doctrine of "The New Law" as taught in certain churches that picks and chooses from Moses' law.

 

[Ebb]

Yes to be saved would mean you are first lost… A Jew was not born into this world lost and without hope.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

 

[Ebb]

This is a misrepresentation. The Law never had anything to do with Gentiles or with salvation. It is not done away with in the sense that it is destroyed, rather in the sense that it was fulfilled.

This is absolutely no place for the law in grace (Rom 11:6). Law is the power of sin.

To be more exact about it, Romans 11:6 says:
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

I agree that the works of the law never saved (Jew or Gentile), since we all fall short. We are no longer under the curse of the law, however the scriptures teach that the law itself is not abolished, but established. It is still a moral code to show us our sins. Even as Christians, we continue to sin in the flesh (see I John 1:8-10).

The Jewish dietary and ceremonial part of the law did not carry over to the Gentile converts of the Church (see Acts, Galatians, and Colossians), but the New Testament writers affirmed these parts of the law for the Church, the moral part of the law:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:8-10

"Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise" Ephesians 6:2

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. I John 1:8-10

"3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth." I John 2:3-8

"8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well. 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. James 2:8-11

"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

 

[BT]

Hi Ebb!

Sorry to kind of cut in like this but I've been away. I know a lot of people who follow coventalism so I understand what you're saying. But I'd like to address one point (which is my same point almost everytime).

Read Romans. And Ephesians and Hebrews, too. The grace of Christ that would be provided to the OT saints was progressively revealed. (The progressive dispy's have this part right.)

I have read Romans and Ephesians and Hebrews too .

Ok so you and I and everyone else (hyperbole) has read these three books, k? The point is that this was a mystery and that the people who lived in the Old Testament days:

1. Did not read these three books
2. Did not have an understanding as Paul did (proof? Paul in his early days did not have this understanding, hence he persecuted the Christians...)
3. Only knew to be obedient to what God had told them, or revealed to them, thus far (thus far being at whatever point they were in)

You see this is the problem. You (and I mean people who follow covenantalism, not just you Ebb), have to seperate that knowledge that you have (as a Christian in these times... or even AD 60) from the knowledge that they (OT people) had in their times (way way BC). What you are doing really is taking the knowledge of the NT, looking back at the OT, and saying WOW I get it! The flaw is only when you say, WOW They understood this too! That, my friend, is a very very big flaw. If they got it, and I mean got it like Paul did and like you do and I do and all the people who've studied these three books... they would have never killed Christ in the first place. They would have recognized Him for who he was.

My prof. for dispensationalism put it like this.. "You can look back at the Old Testament through the "goggles" of the New Testament and understand many mysteries. However you have to realize that the Old Testament Saints didn't have the goggles. They could only believe in the revelation that they had."

So if you think of my friend Abraham Schwartz sitting on the side of a hill back in Israel during the time of David, you have to understand that no one at that time had the knowledge that we have. Not during the years of Christ's earthly ministry did the people have the knowledge that we have. Moreover (and this might flip your lid), Paul didn't even have all of the knowledge that we have. I'll clarify that by saying that Paul died before the closing of the canon... so we see more than he even saw.

Ok so back to the OT Jew..

As I said he just did what he was told (with the amount of revelation that he had) and he trusted God. This made him just in the eyes of God... let's check out some scripture k?

Here's a rule for the sin offerring..

Leviticus 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Leviticus 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

Ok so here's what they were told. If you sin, do these things and your sin will be forgiven. Ack! You say. Because we know that they couldn't be forgiven. So what? Did God lie? (I speak as a fool). This obedience was accounted to them for righteousness (in that they had faith that God forgave them). Now of course they still wouldn't get to heaven when they died. Jesus did the rest of that work on the cross (or I should say during the three days after the cross). So the faithfulness that the OT people showed was a belief and trust in God, that if they did what He commanded, they would be saved. They were. This is not two ways to heaven, this is an understanding of the clear Biblical history.

Hope that helps you understand.

 

[Ebb]

If you sin, do these things and your sin will be forgiven. Ack! You say. Because we know that they couldn't be forgiven. So what? Did God lie? (I speak as a fool). This obedience was accounted to them for righteousness (in that they had faith that God forgave them).

The scriptures teach just the opposite.

Their faith was accounted to them for righteousness.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:2-5

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6

Out of faith comes obedience (see Hebrews Chapter 11).

 

[ksen]

The scriptures teach just the opposite.

Their faith was accounted to them for righteousness.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:2-5

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6

Out of faith comes obedience (see Hebrews Chapter 11).

As part of my coursework I did a paper on how people were saved in the Old Testament. The conclusion I came to is that they were saved just like we are today, by grace through faith.

In this era we are saved through belief in Christ. Romans 10 tells us that with the heart we believe and then we confess with our mouth the salvation we have received through belief. Our faith is expressed differently than the faith of the Old Testament Jewish people.

Abraham's faith was expressed through the sacrifice of his son and by the circumcising of his household. The Jews alive from Moses until Christ expressed their faith through the sacrificial system. It was not Abraham's sacrifice or circumcision that saved him. Those actions were a manifestation of the saving faith he already enjoyed. The same goes for the those Jewish people who participated in the Levitical Sacrificial system through faith.

 

[bleechers]

Read Matthew 16... Peter didn't even get it... Jesus explained to his disciples again and again that He must die... they didn't get it...

John the Baptist didn't get it.

Abel brought "a more excellent sacrifice" and pleased God by faith. In his dispensation, that sacrifice equalled faith. Do you bring a sacrifice like Abel's? No. Was Cain's sacrifice just as valid as Abel's? No. Did Abel bring a sacrifice because of the Mosaic law? No.

In this dispensation, the exact same act is condemned as revealing a lack of faith! So the book of Hebrews both condemns any animal sacrifice on the part of Christians and commends Abel for that very thing! Both are the evidence of faith, but only in the proper dispensation.

================================================

As for the supposed "moral code" of the Law that I'm supposed to be under... how does the Sabbath "reveal sin"? This is a silly argument since 95% of the law has nothing to do with any "moral code" that would apply under the New Testament.

Paul clearly states that the OT is there for our learning (principles), but we are in no way, shape or form under the Law. As a gentile, I was not under the Law, it participated in no way in my salvation. Even if I accept the premise that the Law gave me the knowledge of sin, it has absolutely no life in it.

I repeat again Galatians 3, having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect in the flesh? Paul clearly equates in that Book that the Law is of the flesh. In the 2nd and 3rd verses he makes it clear, not only that it cannot save, but that it is not the vehicle for the saved in any way!

The Law is a schoolmaster. In Christ, I don't need the Law. I don't think, "gosh, I really want to commit murder. I wonder if that's OK. I'd better check the Law." The Law of Liberty and the Law of Christ go way beyond the Law of Moses. He calls men to a much, much higher standard. The Law is the absolute least that God desires.

The Law is all or nothing (James 2:10). You are either under the Law or under grace. Who is the arbiter of what laws you think we should still be under? Should I "keep holy the Sabbath?"


Acts 15
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


In Christ we are dead to the Law:

Romans 7
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[BT]

The scriptures teach just the opposite.

Their faith was accounted to them for righteousness.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:2-5

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6

Out of faith comes obedience (see Hebrews Chapter 11).

Sorry but you just aren't listening. It's ok if you just don't get it.

 

[Ebb]

I know what you were saying:

What you are doing really is taking the knowledge of the NT, looking back at the OT, and saying WOW I get it! The flaw is only when you say, WOW They understood this too!

But they didn't need to understand. They just had to trust and obey. Out of faith comes obedience. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). And this is what the OT saints did.

 

[Ebb]

Note that Jesus declared these people saved, and this was pre-Calvary:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" Luke 7:50
"And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee." Luke 18:42

They could not have understood about the Cross. They simply believed and it was accounted to them for righteousness.

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26

 

[Iosias]

one more question: are "covenant" believers always Calvanists?

Absolutely not! I am a dispensationalist and a five-point calvinist

 

[bleechers]

Absolutely not! I am a dispensationalist and a five-point calvinist

And a very lonely man...

 

[ksen]

And a very lonely man...

He's not so alone, I'm a Dispy-Doodle Calvinist as well.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Note that Jesus declared these people saved, and this was pre-Calvary:

"And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" Luke 7:50
"And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee." Luke 18:42

They could not have understood about the Cross. They simply believed and it was accounted to them for righteousness.

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26

But their salvation was not realized until the cross. Same with all the OT saints.

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[BT]

I know what you were saying:



But they didn't need to understand. They just had to trust and obey. Out of faith comes obedience. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). And this is what the OT saints did.

I am pretty convinced that you are absolutely confused, so I'll leave it as is. I can't think of a more clear way to tell it. For peace sake we'll agree to disagree, I suppose.

 

[bleechers]

He's not so alone, I'm a Dispy-Doodle Calvinist as well

John Darby would be spinning in his grave... if he wasn't enjoying eternal bliss!

BT, I got confused as to what was being argued as well... so I guess it's best to just smile and nod slowly.

 

[@@Paul@@]

John Darby would be spinning in his grave... if he wasn't enjoying eternal bliss!

BT, I got confused as to what was being argued as well... so I guess it's best to just smile and nod slowly.

I don't think BT was confused.

He is just convinced everyone else is confused!!! Big difference!!!