Dismantling theistic evolution with 10 questions

[Colossians]

It appears we have a few theistic evolutionists in our midst: those who like to invoke evolutionary processes and tack God on for good measure.



We shall easily dispense with this convoluted and confused thought with 10 questions:


Question 1 concerns the motive and fulfillment of your God:
"Presuming your God has volition and desire, and presuming he desired to create, how was such desire fulfilled in allowing matter to evolve through chance mutations? Would you find such an activity personally fulfilling yourself?"

Question 2 concerns the semantic of "creation" and is corollary to question 1:
"How is it that God can be attributed with creating what we see today, if he allowed matter to take its own course?"

Question 3 concerns the assurance of result, and is corollary to question 2:
"How is it that any result at all was guaranteed?"

Question 4 concerns omniscience, and is counter-corollary to question 3:
"How is it that evolution can be said to have proceeded by chance, if the Creator knew the exact result before he began? Would not his beginning the process simply invoke a foreknown destiny, thus pre-nullifying the purpose of chance evolution?"

Question 5 concerns time and is partner to question 1:
"Given that time is irrelevant and a non-entity to an eternal God, what satisfaction did he derive from his waiting for things to take place? At what point in eternity did they take place? How much of eternity preceded their beginning? Given that eternity is undefined, how is it you are sure we are even here?"

Question 6 concerns the pinnacle of creation, man, and the incarnation of Jesus Christ:
"If evolution took its own course, then how is it that man is in God's image? For if that which has formed by chance is in God's image, then God is a necessarily undefined. How could God's Son be guaranteed of a predetermined ministry?"

Question 7 concerns spiritual accountability:
"At what point in the evolutionary chain is a creature considered accountable to God? Why is an ape not accountable? What determines the line to be drawn? When was the line drawn? When the line was drawn, was it drawn unilaterally?"

Question 8 concerns the composite fabric of man and is companion to question 7:
"At what point did man receive a spirit? What was the point of receiving a spirit if he was alive without one? If you say he has no spirit, then how can you also declare that he has an afterlife ahead of him? If you say he has no afterlife, then what is the point of his current life, and what is the point of your debating?

Question 9 concerns your motive:
"What is your deepest motive for rejecting a short, direct, creation, given that such is possible for God to have done? If you say "the evidence", if it were in fact true that God did create in 7 days, how would things look any different?"

Question 10 will sound familiar:
"How do you know there is a God"?

 

[Rochir]

Could give me a quick and dirty definition of "theistic evolution" please?

 

[Jet Black]

why not just post this in the CO forum?

 

[artybloke]

Would you find such an activity personally fulfilling yourself?"

You seem to have a very human view of God. In fact, a very American 20th century "feel-good society" view of God. Why would anyone know what God would or would not find personally fullfilling, and what has this got to do with the evidence that God has left about his methods in the universe?

 

[Colossians]

Arty,

Your drop in the bucket is noted.

 

[Susan Sto Helit]

I think these questions lead nowhere because they presuppose an universal definition/understanding of God. The Jewish view of God is not the Christian view of God is not the Muslim view of God and so forth. And then there are Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, etc "evolutionists". (And of course each religion has inner divisions.) Therefore anyone's answer to these questions would prove nothing but their personal understanding of God (or Gods), and quite a few of them are meaningless for those who subscribe to non-Christian religions.

-----SSH

 

[Split Rock]

Arty,

Your drop in the bucket is noted.

Is there any reason at all for anyone to respond to your posts when your replies are as obnoxious as this one?

 

[Nathan David]

Wow, you make a lot of assumptions about God's feelings and desires.

 

[Colossians]

I think these questions lead nowhere because they presuppose an universal definition/understanding of God. The Jewish view of God is not the Christian view of God is not the Muslim view of God and so forth. And then there are Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, etc "evolutionists". (And of course each religion has inner divisions.) Therefore anyone's answer to these questions would prove nothing but their personal understanding of God (or Gods), and quite a few of them are meaningless for those who subscribe to non-Christian religions.
All gods are attributed with volition and desire. These are the universals upon which this thread is based. Your point is focussed on packaging only, and is such is invalid.

 

[artybloke]

All gods are attributed with volition and desire

Therefore all gods are created in the image of man......

 

[Colossians]

Arty,

Your comments are quite noticeable.

 

[gluadys]

It appears we have a few theistic evolutionists in our midst: those who like to invoke evolutionary processes and tack God on for good measure.



We shall easily dispense with this convoluted and confused thought with 10 questions:


[/i]

I agree. This belongs in the CO section. See my answers in Origins Theology.

 

[Magnus Vile]

Just out of curiousity...

Who is 'we' ?

And how/when did this 'we' become infallible judges of what a god may or may not have decided to do?

 

[Colossians]

gluadys,

I agree. This belongs in the CO section.
(Gluadys implies that her agreement is a weighty event.)

See my answers in Origins Theology.
No thanks.

 

[Susan Sto Helit]

gluadys,

I agree. This belongs in the CO section.
(Gluadys implies that her agreement is a weighty event.)

See my answers in Origins Theology.
No thanks.

If you don't care about answers, then you do you ask the questions?

-----SSH

 

[Colossians]

To all the evolutionists sitting up there on the current viewers perch, when you start to contribute significantly more than your nervous one-liners, I will take you seriously.

Until then, be advised that Jesus Christ is Lord, and you're not.
Good night. It is late.

 

[AirPo]

To all the evolutionists sitting up there on the current viewers perch, when you start to contribute significantly more than your nervous one-liners, I will take you seriously.

Until then, be advised that Jesus Christ is Lord, and you're not.
Good night. It is late.

When you lose the smug attitude, perhaps the evolutionists will take you seriously.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

My answers are here: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=9983633&postcount=2

And when, exactly, did any TE set himself up as Lord in Jesus' place? Your foul accusations and arrogance get right up my nose.

 

[Nathan Poe]

It appears we have a few theistic evolutionists in our midst: those who like to invoke evolutionary processes and tack God on for good measure.

It also appears we have those in our midst whose primary goal in life is to attack and belittle others...

We shall easily dispense with this convoluted and confused thought with 10 questions:

Ok, let's do this...

Question 1 concerns the motive and fulfillment of your God:
"Presuming your God has volition and desire, and presuming he desired to create, how was such desire fulfilled in allowing matter to evolve through chance mutations? Would you find such an activity personally fulfilling yourself?"

1: Why do you ascribe such human characteristics to God?

2: Gardening is more or less a hit or miss pastime. Which roses would you prefer: Those bought in a store or those you grew yourself?
Same with cooking. Cookies are always better when you bake them yourself, without taking any shortcuts.

Question 2 concerns the semantic of "creation" and is corollary to question 1:
"How is it that God can be attributed with creating what we see today, if he allowed matter to take its own course?"

If God rolls a snowball off the top of a mountain, and it rolls to the bottom on its own power, wouldn't He still get the credit?

And if not, why would it matter?

Question 3 concerns the assurance of result, and is corollary to question 2:
"How is it that any result at all was guaranteed?"

Duh. He's God.

Continuing with the snowball analogy, don't you think God is capable of pushing a snowball off the top of a mountain, knowing in advance where it's going to land?

Granted, it would take incredible skill and foresight, but that's par for the course for a supreme being, is it not?

Question 4 concerns omniscience, and is counter-corollary to question 3:
"How is it that evolution can be said to have proceeded by chance, if the Creator knew the exact result before he began? Would not his beginning the process simply invoke a foreknown destiny, thus pre-nullifying the purpose of chance evolution?"

Only creationists insist that evolution "proceded by chance."

Once again with the snowball analogy: Does God have to predict every last bump and roll down the mountain in order to predictthe final outcome?

Question 5 concerns time and is partner to question 1:
"Given that time is irrelevant and a non-entity to an eternal God, what satisfaction did he derive from his waiting for things to take place? At what point in eternity did they take place? How much of eternity preceded their beginning? Given that eternity is undefined, how is it you are sure we are even here?"

This question is equally relevent to Biblical creationism: Why take 6 days? Why not just snap His all-powerful fingers and *POOF* it's all done?

If you want to question God's methods and motives, that's your business. But this question is not limited to TEs.

Question 6 concerns the pinnacle of creation, man, and the incarnation of Jesus Christ:
"If evolution took its own course, then how is it that man is in God's image? For if that which has formed by chance is in God's image, then God is a necessarily undefined. How could God's Son be guaranteed of a predetermined ministry?"

TEs (at least most of them) maintain that evolution did not take its own course. It was directed by God. So there you are.

Secondly, What makes you so certain that we're already in God's image? As evolution is an ongoing process, and as Christian doctrine stresses the need for salvation, wouldn't it be more sensible (and far less arrogant) to believe that perhaps we haven't reached the pinnacle just yet?

Question 7 concerns spiritual accountability:
"At what point in the evolutionary chain is a creature considered accountable to God? Why is an ape not accountable? What determines the line to be drawn? When was the line drawn? When the line was drawn, was it drawn unilaterally?"

Again, this question is not exclusive to TEs.

At what point in our ages are we considered accountable to God? Is a seven-year-old child accountable? How about three years old? How about a child in the womb? Do those that die in childbirth go to heaven or hell?

Answer my question and you've answered your own.

Question 8 concerns the composite fabric of man and is companion to question 7:
"At what point did man receive a spirit? What was the point of receiving a spirit if he was alive without one? If you say he has no spirit, then how can you also declare that he has an afterlife ahead of him? If you say he has no afterlife, then what is the point of his current life, and what is the point of your debating?

Again, this is merely an extention of the old religious question: At what point in our development do we receive a soul?

When does the zygote stop being a clump of cells and become a person? The Catholic Church says at conception, but are they correct?

All you're doing, Col, is taking the grey areas in your own religious thinking and applying them elsewhere. First, you need to get the beam out of your own eye...

Question 9 concerns your motive:
"What is your deepest motive for rejecting a short, direct, creation, given that such is possible for God to have done? If you say "the evidence", if it were in fact true that God did create in 7 days, how would things look any different?"

Basically, it sounds like you're asking for every scrap of geological, biological, astronomical, and cosmological evidence that falsifies YEC. You can surf the forum yourself for the answers to this one.

Question 10 will sound familiar:
"How do you know there is a God"?

Oh, come on, Col, even a hellbound Atheist like me can answer this one...

It's called "Faith."


Gotta give you credit, Col, you really did try with this one.

 

[Colossians]

Nathan Poe,

You answers are either not well thought out, poor parallels, superficial, evasive, returned questions, sarcasm, wit, diversions, or that which presumes evolution is true.
Whichever the case, they are not worthy of response.

There is perhaps one of your answers (a question) which I will respond to as follows:
Is a seven-year-old child accountable?
Yes.
How about three years old?
Yes.
How about a child in the womb?
Yes
Do those that die in childbirth go to heaven or hell?
Hell. (Refer 1 Cor 7:14, Rev 21:27)