C
crashedman
Guest
Hi,
I got this reply from a humanist/atheist guy in America as to the reasons why our modern society is so neurotic about the human form:
Jan Goss <jgoss@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> There are a couple of points I would like to deal with. First, you say
> that few modern cultures are comfortable with nudity. Is the reason for
> this simply because clothing compulsiveness was exported to those
> countries (by missionaries, for example)?
None of this question of why nudity and the body are often considered
"offensive" or "disgusting" in modern cultures is especially simple.
In fact, it's a very complex thing that's going on, I think, but I also
think I can sort out many of the issues.
The exportation of nudity-aversion from more advanced/powerful cultures
to less advanced/powerful ones certainly happens. It's still going on --
most people in those few remaining isolated tribes in the the Amazon (or
Africa or Australia) now seem to feel they have to wear at least some
sort or clothing, at least when they come in contact with outsiders.
They are made to feel inferior if they don't.
> The cultures didn't naturally develop clothing compulsion, but rather
> were influenced by a more powerful culture. (Not necessarily better, but
> more powerful.)
But it had to start somewhere, right? And there need to be factors that
keep the bad attitudes alive, since they're basically irrational and (as
we know) it's really more pleasant to be naked when possible.
So let's start to analyze what's going on. First, let's distinguish
*disgust* with nudity from *aversion* to nudity. Disgust is what this
thread started out with, but it's a subset of aversion. Aversion is more
general, because it arises from social, economic, and political factors.
It's not necessarily a visceral emotion like disgust. It's just more
like the feeling of inferiority poor people experience because of their
socially subordinate position, which is often signified by partial or
total lack of "good clothes". This is the clothes = status factor. In
most societies, more clothes = more status. Going naked was (usually)
for slaves or menial laborers.
Religion is a related factor, and clearly a very important one also in
the aversion people feel towards nudity. Religion has always been used
by social, military, and political elites as a tool to manipulate and
control the masses. This is blatantly obvious in one of the two main U.
S. political parties today. Nudity-related and sexuality-related issues
are very prominent in such political manipulation.
But nudity would not be such a convenient point of leverage if there
were not powerful underlying emotions involved. One such class of
emotions has to do with finding and keeping a mate. Physical
attractiveness (or lack thereof) of one's naked body is a huge factor in
attracting and keeping a mate. Once one has a mate, jealousy and the
fear of losing one's mate to the competition is always a salient factor.
Clothing provides a means to sharply limit and control situations where
this aspect of the naked body can come out in the open. Use of clothing
lets people (especially women) control as much as possible when and how
they use nudity to their advantage with mate finding/keeping.
Yet this still doesn't address the issue of "disgust". I've been saving
that for last. It's certainly another powerful emotion. I think the
connection of disgust with nakedness arises from at least four separate
and somewhat independent directions:
1. The parts of our bodies which, by definition, determine whether
or not we are considered naked, depending on whether or not they
are covered, are our most sexually significant parts. Sexuality
itself is closely connected with the emotion of disgust.
2. Those same parts of our bodies are also the areas through which
we excrete waste. Also obviously "disgusting".
3. As we get older, our bodies accumulate sags, bulges, wrinkles,
and scars, which keep reminding us we are getting older and
closer to dying. Older bodies are generally considered more
disgusting bodies. Conversely, young bodies, especially children's,
are hardly "disgusting" at all.
4. Of much more importance to women than to men is the fact that
naked (male) bodies can be a strong reminder of the danger of
rape. Rape is obviously disgusting, and not just because of
the sexual element.
So what is the common theme here with these "disgusting" elements that
are closely connected with nudity? Obviously it is the relation that
all have to our physical health and well-being.
Sexuality can be dangerous because many nasty diseases are transmitted
that way. People understood this intuitively before they understood
exactly what the biology was, but it's certainly much better understood
now, and therefore more strongly perceived as a danger.
Body waste is dangerous because it too carries disease (cholera,
dysentery, etc.). Note that this is especially a problem in relatively
modern societies with high population density, and much less a problem
in more "primitive" foraging societies. There's much more awareness of
this danger, too -- it wasn't so long ago that even "modern" societies
were more tolerant of human and animal **** in the streets. Modern
societies have now become very conscious and concerned about good
sanitation, but take things to an extreme by demanding clothes, when a
well-placed towel (or more frequent bathing) will suffice.
Physical decay is part sign and part cause of health problems. Rashes
and open sores may indicate a contageous disease. We are just now
becoming aware of how bad for our health obesity is. I think
nudist/naturist organizations are making a mistake by proclaiming that
all body sizes and shapes are equally "good". That just isn't true, and
people have always recognized this intuitively to some extent, which is
partly why fat people are stigmatized. Evolution has provided us with
a sense of what makes bodies "attractive" as a guide to mate selection --
older bodies are less healthy and fertile, hence less desirable for
purposes of spreading one's genes (and being around long enough to
raise the children).
Lastly, rape is obviously not salubrious. Even if the rapist doesn't
kill or brutalize his victim, simple pregnancy is dangerous to one's
health. Seven or eight months of discomfort followed by a hazardous
and painful birth event is not a trifle.
The bottom line is that these four factors which mainly contribute to
the "disgust" people associate with nudity are all closely related to
our physical health. We fear that which threatens our health. Disgust is
an emotion that evolution has provided us to warn of dangers we should
avoid.
But people who find nudity itself disgusting are over generalizing,
since it's not at all hard to avoid the health dangers even if naked
-- and thereby enjoy the health benefits.
Charles Daney
I got this reply from a humanist/atheist guy in America as to the reasons why our modern society is so neurotic about the human form:
Jan Goss <jgoss@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> There are a couple of points I would like to deal with. First, you say
> that few modern cultures are comfortable with nudity. Is the reason for
> this simply because clothing compulsiveness was exported to those
> countries (by missionaries, for example)?
None of this question of why nudity and the body are often considered
"offensive" or "disgusting" in modern cultures is especially simple.
In fact, it's a very complex thing that's going on, I think, but I also
think I can sort out many of the issues.
The exportation of nudity-aversion from more advanced/powerful cultures
to less advanced/powerful ones certainly happens. It's still going on --
most people in those few remaining isolated tribes in the the Amazon (or
Africa or Australia) now seem to feel they have to wear at least some
sort or clothing, at least when they come in contact with outsiders.
They are made to feel inferior if they don't.
> The cultures didn't naturally develop clothing compulsion, but rather
> were influenced by a more powerful culture. (Not necessarily better, but
> more powerful.)
But it had to start somewhere, right? And there need to be factors that
keep the bad attitudes alive, since they're basically irrational and (as
we know) it's really more pleasant to be naked when possible.
So let's start to analyze what's going on. First, let's distinguish
*disgust* with nudity from *aversion* to nudity. Disgust is what this
thread started out with, but it's a subset of aversion. Aversion is more
general, because it arises from social, economic, and political factors.
It's not necessarily a visceral emotion like disgust. It's just more
like the feeling of inferiority poor people experience because of their
socially subordinate position, which is often signified by partial or
total lack of "good clothes". This is the clothes = status factor. In
most societies, more clothes = more status. Going naked was (usually)
for slaves or menial laborers.
Religion is a related factor, and clearly a very important one also in
the aversion people feel towards nudity. Religion has always been used
by social, military, and political elites as a tool to manipulate and
control the masses. This is blatantly obvious in one of the two main U.
S. political parties today. Nudity-related and sexuality-related issues
are very prominent in such political manipulation.
But nudity would not be such a convenient point of leverage if there
were not powerful underlying emotions involved. One such class of
emotions has to do with finding and keeping a mate. Physical
attractiveness (or lack thereof) of one's naked body is a huge factor in
attracting and keeping a mate. Once one has a mate, jealousy and the
fear of losing one's mate to the competition is always a salient factor.
Clothing provides a means to sharply limit and control situations where
this aspect of the naked body can come out in the open. Use of clothing
lets people (especially women) control as much as possible when and how
they use nudity to their advantage with mate finding/keeping.
Yet this still doesn't address the issue of "disgust". I've been saving
that for last. It's certainly another powerful emotion. I think the
connection of disgust with nakedness arises from at least four separate
and somewhat independent directions:
1. The parts of our bodies which, by definition, determine whether
or not we are considered naked, depending on whether or not they
are covered, are our most sexually significant parts. Sexuality
itself is closely connected with the emotion of disgust.
2. Those same parts of our bodies are also the areas through which
we excrete waste. Also obviously "disgusting".
3. As we get older, our bodies accumulate sags, bulges, wrinkles,
and scars, which keep reminding us we are getting older and
closer to dying. Older bodies are generally considered more
disgusting bodies. Conversely, young bodies, especially children's,
are hardly "disgusting" at all.
4. Of much more importance to women than to men is the fact that
naked (male) bodies can be a strong reminder of the danger of
rape. Rape is obviously disgusting, and not just because of
the sexual element.
So what is the common theme here with these "disgusting" elements that
are closely connected with nudity? Obviously it is the relation that
all have to our physical health and well-being.
Sexuality can be dangerous because many nasty diseases are transmitted
that way. People understood this intuitively before they understood
exactly what the biology was, but it's certainly much better understood
now, and therefore more strongly perceived as a danger.
Body waste is dangerous because it too carries disease (cholera,
dysentery, etc.). Note that this is especially a problem in relatively
modern societies with high population density, and much less a problem
in more "primitive" foraging societies. There's much more awareness of
this danger, too -- it wasn't so long ago that even "modern" societies
were more tolerant of human and animal **** in the streets. Modern
societies have now become very conscious and concerned about good
sanitation, but take things to an extreme by demanding clothes, when a
well-placed towel (or more frequent bathing) will suffice.
Physical decay is part sign and part cause of health problems. Rashes
and open sores may indicate a contageous disease. We are just now
becoming aware of how bad for our health obesity is. I think
nudist/naturist organizations are making a mistake by proclaiming that
all body sizes and shapes are equally "good". That just isn't true, and
people have always recognized this intuitively to some extent, which is
partly why fat people are stigmatized. Evolution has provided us with
a sense of what makes bodies "attractive" as a guide to mate selection --
older bodies are less healthy and fertile, hence less desirable for
purposes of spreading one's genes (and being around long enough to
raise the children).
Lastly, rape is obviously not salubrious. Even if the rapist doesn't
kill or brutalize his victim, simple pregnancy is dangerous to one's
health. Seven or eight months of discomfort followed by a hazardous
and painful birth event is not a trifle.
The bottom line is that these four factors which mainly contribute to
the "disgust" people associate with nudity are all closely related to
our physical health. We fear that which threatens our health. Disgust is
an emotion that evolution has provided us to warn of dangers we should
avoid.
But people who find nudity itself disgusting are over generalizing,
since it's not at all hard to avoid the health dangers even if naked
-- and thereby enjoy the health benefits.
Charles Daney
