Discussion with an Atheist - part 2

[navedub]

My "way of thinking" is that religion becomes postmodernist when it is no longer supported by science (or when science finally escapes the bondage of religion). All of a sudden, a "personal relationship" with the creator is paramount.

Accept it or don't. Matters less.

try and see the individual and not lump all religious people into one category.

 

[Tenka]

if you can not get past the words and recognize individual perception you can not comprehend personal truth, individuality and therfore will never know MY truth.

Why are these subjective truths true at all?

Are there 6 odd billion universes because everyone perceives it in a different way?

Why "truth" and not opinion?

 

[navedub]

Why are these subjective truths true at all?

Are there 6 odd billion universes because everyone perceives it in a different way?

Why "truth" and not opinion?

Why are these subjective truths true at all?

why is grass green? don't go into a scientific explanation, if you can avoid it. why do i percieve it to be green? and what is green if not just an expression of what i observe? how do i know you don't actually see green as blue? think about it.

Are there 6 odd billion universes because everyone perceives it in a different way?

i don't know, do you? refer to the above response. honestly look at it.

Why "truth" and not opinion?

because its a cognitive reality, not a maybe so.

 

[navedub]

to all of you who may be waiting for a response in the first posted discussion, i apologize, but my browser won't allow me to get in there or change the display mode. if you'd like to continue the discussion please copy and past the relevant text in reply to this message and we can continue here. thank you.

 

[Tenka]

why is grass green?

It isn't to everyone, but it can be measured independantly and objectively with a spectrometer, which will give everyone the same result.
We can define green as being within a certain measurement range and grass can be agreed "green" in colour.

how do i know you don't actually see green as blue? think about it.

That can be simply and quickly resolved, with little or no ambiguity.

i don't know, do you? refer to the above response. honestly look at it.

The earth was spherical even when people thought it was a flat disk siting upon great pillars with a dome holding the stars on top.

 

[navedub]

It isn't to everyone, but it can be measured independantly and objectively with a spectrometer, which will give everyone the same result.
We can define green as being within a certain measurement range and grass can be agreed "green" in colour.

That can be simply and quickly resolved, with little or no ambiguity.

The earth was spherical even when people thought it was a flat disk siting upon great pillars with a dome holding the stars on top.

spectrometer

i'm talking about human perception of existence but if you look to a machine to validate what you view, more power to you. i don't think its gonna give you any answers.

That can be simply and quickly resolved, with little or no ambiguity.

i know, its the ambiguity of the personal perception of existence which makes it so wonderful in that there are individual responses to explain the same truth. why else are we all so drawn to understand it? to come to a conclusion? no, to better understand why we desire a conclusion, in my opinion.

The earth was spherical even when people thought it was a flat disk siting upon great pillars with a dome holding the stars on top.

yes, which is why again the pursuit of truth is so wonderful. inner as well as external realities. incidentally what governs that truth which is waiting to be discovered? do either of us know?

 

[navedub]

My Browser Won't Allow Me Into Part 1

to all of you who may be waiting for a response in the first posted discussion, i apologize, but my browser won't allow me to get in there or change the display mode. if you'd like to continue the discussion please copy and past the relevant text in reply to this message and we can continue here. thank you.

 

[navedub]

try and see the individual and not lump all religious people into one category.

p.s. if you do respond, please respond to the original post. in advanced mode - delete the original post, so i can view it more easily. i'm in threaded mode, thank you.

 

[TeddyKGB]

why is grass green? don't go into a scientific explanation, if you can avoid it. why do i percieve it to be green? and what is green if not just an expression of what i observe? how do i know you don't actually see green as blue? think about it.

If I perceived grass to be blue, I would perceive all objects reflecting such wavelengths as blue. In that case, it would be a physiological issue, similar to red-green colorblindness.

 

[navedub]

If I perceived grass to be blue, I would perceive all objects reflecting such wavelengths as blue. In that case, it would be a physiological issue, similar to red-green colorblindness.

you're missing the heart of the metaphor and going off on some tangent about psychology. its a reflection on personal perception as relating to the discussion, which is about tolerance for different points of view concerning existence and the question of a creator/governing of existence.

 

[thelittlegosling]

not quite a debate, think outside the box does not seem an intelligent thing to say. What exactly was meant by these words? Sometimes i feel that it is those who will not use logic to rationalise their beliefs that need to 'think outside the box'. So many young christians i have met refuse to think freely and seem quite ignorant. I hope to meet with a good intelligent debate.

 

[TeddyKGB]

you're missing the heart of the metaphor and going off on some tangent about psychology. its a reflection on personal perception as relating to the discussion, which is about tolerance for different points of view concerning existence and the question of a creator/governing of existence.

I don't like metaphors that are not intuitive.

 

[navedub]

I don't like metaphors that are not intuitive.

intuition: The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.

take a long look, we're one in the same if you still agree with your above statement.

 

[navedub]

not quite a debate, think outside the box does not seem an intelligent thing to say. What exactly was meant by these words? Sometimes i feel that it is those who will not use logic to rationalise their beliefs that need to 'think outside the box'. So many young christians i have met refuse to think freely and seem quite ignorant. I hope to meet with a good intelligent debate.

does not seem an intelligent thing to say

define intelligence and i'll tell you what i meant by those words. ah, what the hell, i'll tell you now, though i'm really just repeating what you should have already read in here. cognitive experience which can only be understood within oneself, subjective in nature. but then this discussion isn't about who's right, who's wrong but rather a tolerance and honoring of multiple perspectives. i want you to be an atheist and grow in that, i'm not trying to convert anyone but only share my perspective.

p.s. subjective is not a bad word, though you may think it is.

 

[navedub]

intuition: The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.

take a long look, we're one in the same if you still agree with your above statement.

also, the metaphor was a response to another conversation i was having with another user. if you wish to fully comprehend why i used it please follow the line of thought we were discussing which was on personal perception.

 

[b4uris]

Stop the flame wars! Por favor!

 

[navedub]

Stop the flame wars! Por favor!

dunno what that means but every fights a good fight if the fight is for tolerance.

 

[Tenka]

oh damn, and we were so close. i thought for a minute there human beings were capable of honoring things outside their own comprehension, of actually being truly humble and seeing the value in all conscious perspective if there's virtue to be found in it.

1) I have no reason to think you have anything "outside my comprehension", just because I don't believe it, doesn't mean I cannot comprehend it.
2) I have no reason to honor people's belief in imaginary friends, nor see any value in it.

this discussion is not about atheists and christians. are we all starting to see that yet?

This discussion started strange and got progressively less lucid.

when i say you people i mean the "arrogant assumers of omnipotence".

You didn't say "you people", who are you talking about/to ?

yes, even the christian voyeurs who choose not to chime in on this discussion but claim they know the "whole truth" as well. you're all a cut of the same mold. hypocrites

Can you please explain who you are talking to and what you are talking about here, it might be obvious to you, but possibly you haven't expressed what you mean as well as you could have.

i'd really appreciate it, unless of course you're too upset by my above statement

Not by the 1/2 that was understandable.

 

[PKJ]

look deeper, all the metaphors in the world can't undo personal truth.

There is NO SUCH THING as personnal truth. Truth is public. Remember that monopoly money analogy?

 

[navedub]

1) I have no reason to think you have anything "outside my comprehension", just because I don't believe it, doesn't mean I cannot comprehend it.
2) I have no reason to honor people's belief in imaginary friends, nor see any value in it.

This discussion started strange and got progressively less lucid.

You didn't say "you people", who are you talking about/to ?

Can you please explain who you are talking to and what you are talking about here, it might be obvious to you, but possibly you haven't expressed what you mean as well as you could have.

Not by the 1/2 that was understandable.

1) I have no reason to think you have anything "outside my comprehension", just because I don't believe it, doesn't mean I cannot comprehend it.
2) I have no reason to honor people's belief in imaginary friends, nor see any value in it.

plain english for those who need it: you intend only to serve you. you do not intend to serve truth. you do not see value in that which you cannot comprehend because you conciously choose not to comprehend it. i have a feeling your brain won't soak that in properly either.

This discussion started strange and got progressively less lucid.

regarding your lucid comment - i am not a robot, you are speaking to a human being who conveys not simply logic when he speaks but also emotion. if you can not make an effort to feel what i feel, i often have to resort to even more emotion filled language. when i ask "are we all seeing this yet?" i mean everyone in this forum who are just as closed off as you.

You didn't say "you people", who are you talking about/to ?

regarding "you people", i guess i made that statement in another response, in which i said, "you people are all the same?", my mistake.

Can you please explain who you are talking to and what you are talking about here, it might be obvious to you, but possibly you haven't expressed what you mean as well as you could have.

when i say hypocrites its regarding people who do not seek resolution but rather conflict and all for the sake of remaining right. you speak as though your intention is for that of truth, when in actuality its all for the sake of promoting conflict. am i the first upset christian you've run into? no, and i've also run into many condescending atheists (yourself included, hence "imaginary friend") who are upset at me as well. here's the difference between me and likely most of those christians. i'm upset because of the conflict. not because you disagree with me, rather how you disagree with me in that you won't admit you, yourself could likely be wrong. again i admit i very well could be however i love christ, his teachings and will never abandon them, not for all the logic in the world (which by the way i believe he created and we're just observing). christian voyeurs refers to the christians who are likely reading this discussion but not saying a thing. exhale......................oh, brother.