Discussion with an Atheist - part 2 - I guess he didnt give up after all - good for him
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Him:
Quote:
Originally Posted by navedub RE: I don't have to know you or anything about you to know that "comprehension" isn't exclusive to the theists. You speak of "truths" of your faith as if there is evidence for these truths, then say I can't comprehend and I knock these "truths" for which there isn't any evidence for.
do you have love for your mother? don't answer, i don't want to get too personal i'm just trying to make a point. i'll assume you do. do you honestly believe you can convey that love to me in words? even if you did, and you seem to be quite articulate, i would still not have a full comprehension of what it means to YOU. only some broad, personalized interpretation of what you told me.
I understand the point you are trying to make and for the most part I can accept it. But this also tells me that you don't have a full comprehensive understanding of what this god is, because it is only conveyed to you through words. You have not met this god face to face, saying you meet him everday in the things you see is meaningless. We know mothers exist and we know people, possibly even you have a great love for mother. They exist. I do not see a god in things around me, I see the things around me as what they are, reality.
Quote:
RE : you must show evidence for it
i must? must? you seem to follow a stringent set of rules for what you determined to be true and false, good for you. me, personally i can determine truths for myself based on instinct or an innate universal understanding not yet fully known to me.
Extraordinary claims require, yes require, extraordinary evidence. If I was to say I have an elephant, you may or may not question it, it is quite possible to have one. Now if I was to say my elephant had a horn like a unicorn and was born with pink skin, you may either write me off as insane, a liar, or you may ask for evidence that I didn't glue a horn on and didn't paint its skin. Its an extraordinary claim. God claims (invisable guy in the sky who love us and is creator and ruler of the universe) are extrodinary in my opinion. Many people have claimed existence for their god, but oddly enough, everyone has their own interpretation of a god. You are no different. Infact, it seems that even though you say you're catholic, it doesn't appear to be a standard cathoilc belief, or what I understand to be catholic. Many others claim to know a personal god(s), what makes yours so special or correct or "The Truth"??? This is where I see your arrogance, its nothing personal, just the way theists are taught.
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RE : How is this a misconception? This is what is taught in almost every christian religion, it is dogma and doctrine.
no, you're wrong, plain and simple. look it up. but lets imagine you were correct.
I don't have to imagine. I am correct, that the teachings of most christians is that they will go to some place in the sky to be with grand ma and aunt sally, assuming they repent their sins, do good deeds and accept that Jesus is lord and savior. These are basic tenets of christianity in America. Saying I'm just plain wrong is an extrordinary claim
Quote:
there are still varying opinions in all religions within their structure and among the individuals that make up that religion but its the unity of our faith that binds us, not our opinions of the unknown.
And how does this make your god anymore real than the Hindu God(s), or the Greek Gods or Zoroaster? Quote:
if you have any experience with the catholic faith you should know this, but even some churches get a little screwy with the way they teach. if you don't have any experience it doesn't surprise me that you don't.
I don't have any experience with your version of the catholic faith, and I was raised Lutharen as a child and as a teen I converted to Baptist, who I admit are very literal in their interpretations. My experience with catholics are limited to my 2 ex-wives and my current GF and her hypocritical family, who also take many aspects very literally. Both my ex-wives family were Polish Catholics and they took many aspects literally as well. Of course you may say that this is the way the church is, but then I'd have to say that that is what they would say about you and your beliefs, so who is right? Oh thats right, you are all right because you are bound by your "faith" even if you do have different understandings.
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Me:
RE: You have not met this god face to face, saying you meet him everyday in the things you see is meaningless.
TO YOU.
RE: I do not see a god in things around me, I see the things around me as what they are, reality.
TO YOU.
I used to love watching this show called Kung Fu. For some reason they stopped rerunning it but I remember one of the episodes in which David Carradines character asked, Master, what is truth? and the master replied, Well grasshopper, there is your truth, there is my truth and then theres the truth. Personally Im always keeping an eye out for the truth and while this may just be my cynicism bleeding through again I dont think Im going to find any answers here, nor should I be looking for them. But I always have a willingness to listen to your truth if youd like to share it and while "my truth" may be disturbing and misguided to you Id still like to offer it all the same. Maybe the truth is just when we happen to occasionally connect our personal truths and honestly relate.
.
RE: Many others claim to know a personal god(s), what makes yours so special or correct or "The Truth"??? This is where I see your arrogance, its nothing personal, just the way theists are taught.
That seems like a rather prejudice assumption and how could one not take that personally? Youve made a judgment about the motives behind my beliefs without bothering to listen to my explanation. Refer to the Kung Fu reply concerning this one as well.
RE: These are basic tenets of christianity in America. Saying I'm just plain wrong is an extrordinary claim
In actuality theyre not the tenets but rather an American, culture based, traditional norm. But not being aware of ones Judeo theological roots on the matter of heaven, hell, the soul, whatever does not prevent a person from being a true Christian. Following the basic tenets of love of god and love of neighbor is the heart of the faith, and yes atheists too are our neighbor, though many Christians forget this. That is the summation of Christs message. To deviate from either is to deny ones own faith and I understand that atheists too follow the second precept. Beyond those two teachings, as long as they dont negate them in anyway theyre on the right path, but then thats just common sense for most.
RE: And how does this make your god anymore real than the Hindu God(s), or the Greek Gods or Zoroaster?
It doesnt, I never said it did. Catholics dont believe that those who dont accept Christs message will not receive the kingdom of heaven, at least thats not what the church teaches. Im going to sound like a typical theist quoting a passage but I doubt you heard this one before. Christ said, I would not condemn those who do not accept my teachings. I did not come into the world to be its judge but that the world through me might be saved.
RE: Of course you may say that this is the way the church is, but then I'd have to say that that is what they would say about you and your beliefs, so who is right? Oh thats right, you are all right because you are bound by your "faith" even if you do have different understandings.
You say that facetiously but you must view in some small way the value of such a union. You, yourself disagree with your wife but does that make you want to stop being a family? What if your children grow up to disagree with you. It is a reality and a reasonable comparison to see the church as a family, which is how I see it, but then thats just my personal truth.
In closing I value reason and humility - if you didnt read my profile. I do not claim to know the whole truth and Im not trying to convert anyone. Ultimately I believe its out of my hands anyway. Only god can convert peoples hearts and minds but they must have some openness to his truth. Very often he deals in morality, virtue, personal responsibility and tolerance. God does not oppose logic, he was the creator of it. He does not oppose truth he is truth. I believe all truth will be known to us in time and wont seem so mysterious once it is because itll be understood. In the same way we once thought the world was flat but now see the truth. Were very much alike in our beliefs I think so please try not confuse the perceived ignorance of some Christians with an imagined ulterior motive that you think is rooted in arrogance and only seeks to serve itself. There are still people who discuss things for the sake of understanding some deeper truth. Whether I find it in you or you in me, truth remains truth and I believe personal truths should be tolerated and respected. It was a thought provoking discussion and I thank you for taking the time. God bless. (dont take that the wrong way)
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Him:
Quote:
Originally Posted by navedub RE: I don't have to know you or anything about you to know that "comprehension" isn't exclusive to the theists. You speak of "truths" of your faith as if there is evidence for these truths, then say I can't comprehend and I knock these "truths" for which there isn't any evidence for.
do you have love for your mother? don't answer, i don't want to get too personal i'm just trying to make a point. i'll assume you do. do you honestly believe you can convey that love to me in words? even if you did, and you seem to be quite articulate, i would still not have a full comprehension of what it means to YOU. only some broad, personalized interpretation of what you told me.
I understand the point you are trying to make and for the most part I can accept it. But this also tells me that you don't have a full comprehensive understanding of what this god is, because it is only conveyed to you through words. You have not met this god face to face, saying you meet him everday in the things you see is meaningless. We know mothers exist and we know people, possibly even you have a great love for mother. They exist. I do not see a god in things around me, I see the things around me as what they are, reality.
Quote:
RE : you must show evidence for it
i must? must? you seem to follow a stringent set of rules for what you determined to be true and false, good for you. me, personally i can determine truths for myself based on instinct or an innate universal understanding not yet fully known to me.
Extraordinary claims require, yes require, extraordinary evidence. If I was to say I have an elephant, you may or may not question it, it is quite possible to have one. Now if I was to say my elephant had a horn like a unicorn and was born with pink skin, you may either write me off as insane, a liar, or you may ask for evidence that I didn't glue a horn on and didn't paint its skin. Its an extraordinary claim. God claims (invisable guy in the sky who love us and is creator and ruler of the universe) are extrodinary in my opinion. Many people have claimed existence for their god, but oddly enough, everyone has their own interpretation of a god. You are no different. Infact, it seems that even though you say you're catholic, it doesn't appear to be a standard cathoilc belief, or what I understand to be catholic. Many others claim to know a personal god(s), what makes yours so special or correct or "The Truth"??? This is where I see your arrogance, its nothing personal, just the way theists are taught.
Quote:
RE : How is this a misconception? This is what is taught in almost every christian religion, it is dogma and doctrine.
no, you're wrong, plain and simple. look it up. but lets imagine you were correct.
I don't have to imagine. I am correct, that the teachings of most christians is that they will go to some place in the sky to be with grand ma and aunt sally, assuming they repent their sins, do good deeds and accept that Jesus is lord and savior. These are basic tenets of christianity in America. Saying I'm just plain wrong is an extrordinary claim
Quote:
there are still varying opinions in all religions within their structure and among the individuals that make up that religion but its the unity of our faith that binds us, not our opinions of the unknown.
And how does this make your god anymore real than the Hindu God(s), or the Greek Gods or Zoroaster? Quote:
if you have any experience with the catholic faith you should know this, but even some churches get a little screwy with the way they teach. if you don't have any experience it doesn't surprise me that you don't.
I don't have any experience with your version of the catholic faith, and I was raised Lutharen as a child and as a teen I converted to Baptist, who I admit are very literal in their interpretations. My experience with catholics are limited to my 2 ex-wives and my current GF and her hypocritical family, who also take many aspects very literally. Both my ex-wives family were Polish Catholics and they took many aspects literally as well. Of course you may say that this is the way the church is, but then I'd have to say that that is what they would say about you and your beliefs, so who is right? Oh thats right, you are all right because you are bound by your "faith" even if you do have different understandings.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Me:
RE: You have not met this god face to face, saying you meet him everyday in the things you see is meaningless.
TO YOU.
RE: I do not see a god in things around me, I see the things around me as what they are, reality.
TO YOU.
I used to love watching this show called Kung Fu. For some reason they stopped rerunning it but I remember one of the episodes in which David Carradines character asked, Master, what is truth? and the master replied, Well grasshopper, there is your truth, there is my truth and then theres the truth. Personally Im always keeping an eye out for the truth and while this may just be my cynicism bleeding through again I dont think Im going to find any answers here, nor should I be looking for them. But I always have a willingness to listen to your truth if youd like to share it and while "my truth" may be disturbing and misguided to you Id still like to offer it all the same. Maybe the truth is just when we happen to occasionally connect our personal truths and honestly relate.
.
RE: Many others claim to know a personal god(s), what makes yours so special or correct or "The Truth"??? This is where I see your arrogance, its nothing personal, just the way theists are taught.
That seems like a rather prejudice assumption and how could one not take that personally? Youve made a judgment about the motives behind my beliefs without bothering to listen to my explanation. Refer to the Kung Fu reply concerning this one as well.
RE: These are basic tenets of christianity in America. Saying I'm just plain wrong is an extrordinary claim
In actuality theyre not the tenets but rather an American, culture based, traditional norm. But not being aware of ones Judeo theological roots on the matter of heaven, hell, the soul, whatever does not prevent a person from being a true Christian. Following the basic tenets of love of god and love of neighbor is the heart of the faith, and yes atheists too are our neighbor, though many Christians forget this. That is the summation of Christs message. To deviate from either is to deny ones own faith and I understand that atheists too follow the second precept. Beyond those two teachings, as long as they dont negate them in anyway theyre on the right path, but then thats just common sense for most.
RE: And how does this make your god anymore real than the Hindu God(s), or the Greek Gods or Zoroaster?
It doesnt, I never said it did. Catholics dont believe that those who dont accept Christs message will not receive the kingdom of heaven, at least thats not what the church teaches. Im going to sound like a typical theist quoting a passage but I doubt you heard this one before. Christ said, I would not condemn those who do not accept my teachings. I did not come into the world to be its judge but that the world through me might be saved.
RE: Of course you may say that this is the way the church is, but then I'd have to say that that is what they would say about you and your beliefs, so who is right? Oh thats right, you are all right because you are bound by your "faith" even if you do have different understandings.
You say that facetiously but you must view in some small way the value of such a union. You, yourself disagree with your wife but does that make you want to stop being a family? What if your children grow up to disagree with you. It is a reality and a reasonable comparison to see the church as a family, which is how I see it, but then thats just my personal truth.
In closing I value reason and humility - if you didnt read my profile. I do not claim to know the whole truth and Im not trying to convert anyone. Ultimately I believe its out of my hands anyway. Only god can convert peoples hearts and minds but they must have some openness to his truth. Very often he deals in morality, virtue, personal responsibility and tolerance. God does not oppose logic, he was the creator of it. He does not oppose truth he is truth. I believe all truth will be known to us in time and wont seem so mysterious once it is because itll be understood. In the same way we once thought the world was flat but now see the truth. Were very much alike in our beliefs I think so please try not confuse the perceived ignorance of some Christians with an imagined ulterior motive that you think is rooted in arrogance and only seeks to serve itself. There are still people who discuss things for the sake of understanding some deeper truth. Whether I find it in you or you in me, truth remains truth and I believe personal truths should be tolerated and respected. It was a thought provoking discussion and I thank you for taking the time. God bless. (dont take that the wrong way)
