I was having a very interesting discourse with a very kind gentleman named Yonah Mishael on the teachings of the Torah. I believe this thread would be good in discoursing about the teachings of Rav Shaul and Yeshua.
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Paul said:Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
I'd like your commentary on this verse:
Galatians 2:19
"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (KJV)
ἐγὼ γὰρ διὰ νόμου νόμῳ ἀπέθανον, ἵνα θεῷ ζήσω. (NA27)
כִּי־מַתִּי אֲנִי לַתּוֹרָה עַל־יְדֵי הַתּוֹרָה לְמַעַן אֶחְיֶה לֵאלֹהִים׃ (Delitzsch)
How can he claim that he died to the Torah, yet he lived according to the Torah? I don't understand your position at all. Paul believed himself dead to the Torah and had no reason to continue living by it, except when he found himself before a Torah-observant community that he was trying to persuade to follow Jesus. He said it himself:
Especially telling is where he said that (1) I am under no law and (2) I became like one not having the law (that is, a Gentile). His personal observance of Torah was unnecessary as a daily way of life, but Torah was useful as a tool of proselytization. That's it. This is why we see him taking a vow and fulfilling it in the Temple. It was for the sake of those who still believed in keeping the Torah -- so that he didn't cause offense and ruin his chance to convince them of Jesus.
You'd have to cite the stuff stating that he is under no law. We have just shown that he agreed that he is to follow the Torah.
First of all, I don't think the KJV is a very good Bible to utilize (it comes from those who did get rid of the Torah, who were instrumental in the writing of Jerome's Latin Vulgate). On Galatians 2:19, we have upo nomou (under law, no article present) and then Ha nomos. Basically Paul is talking about his days when he was following the Torah legalistically, and when he did this, he did not follow the Torah and subsequently, he died to the Torah because he was living in sin.
David Stern in The Complete Jewish Bible shows it in a proper light. See "19 For it was through letting the Torah speak for itself that I died to its traditional legalistic misinterpretation, so that I might live in direct relationship with God."
Galatians 2:15-21 "We are Jews by birth, not so-called Goyishe sinners;..." CJB - Online Bible Study
David Stern's "translation" is anything but a translation. It is more propaganda than scholarship. I put the KJV as a reference. It's clear that my main intent is to use the Greek text as the basis of the discussion -- not David Stern or King James. The text itself says ἐγὼ γὰρ διὰ νόμου νόμῳ ἀπέθανον. Perhaps the exclusion of the article indicates a generalization: "For as for me (the presence of ἐγώ is emphatic), I died to law through law." How was it "through law" that he died "to law"? He claimed in other places that the law is what caused sin to spring to life and kill him!
Romans 7:9-12
ἐγὼ δὲ ἔζων χωρὶς νόμου ποτέ, ἐλθούσης δὲ τῆς ἐντολῆς ἡ ἁμαρτία ἀνέζησεν, ἐγὼ δὲ ἀπέθανον καὶ εὑρέθη μοι ἡ ἐντολὴ ἡ εἰς ζωήν, αὕτη εἰς θάνατον· ἡ γὰρ ἁμαρτία ἀφορμὴν λαβοῦσα διὰ τῆς ἐντολῆς ἐξηπάτησέν με καὶ δι᾽ αὐτῆς ἀπέκτεινεν.
But as for me, I was living without law at one time, and but when the commandment came, sing came to life, and I died - and it was discovered to me [that] the commandment unto life, this [was] unto death. For sin taking the opportunity through the commandment deceived me, and through it I killed me.
He said before that he died through law, and now we see him describing specifically that it was the commandment (ἐντολή that brought him death because it awakened sin! If it hadn't been for the commandment, he could have lived on -- but once the commandment made him aware of the sin, that sin came to life and destroyed him. This is exactly what I was expressing about Paul's views before.
I don't need David Stern's creative interpretations. Nor do I need the KJV. I can read the Greek myself and see exactly what Paul was describing. Do you, by chance, read Greek?
On 1 Corinthians, this might help a bit. "19 For although I am a free man, not bound to do anyone's bidding, I have made myself a slave to all in order to win as many people as possible. 20 That is, with Jews, what I did was put myself in the position of a Jew, in order to win Jews. With people in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah, I put myself in the position of someone under such legalism, in order to win those under this legalism, even though I myself am not in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah. 21 With those who live outside the framework of Torah, I put myself in the position of someone outside the Torah in order to win those outside the Torah - although I myself am not outside the framework of God's Torah but within the framework of Torah as upheld by the Messiah. 22 With the "weak" I became "weak," in order to win the "weak." With all kinds of people I have become all kinds of things, so that in all kinds of circumstances I might save at least some of them. 23 But I do it all because of the rewards promised by the Good News, so that I may share in them along with the others who come to trust."
4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm,Paul says that Jesus was born of woman and "under Torah" (Galatians 4:4) in the same way that he described the Jews that he was trying to convert as "under Torah" (above). If it was "in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah" that Paul was talking about, why would he use the same phrase to describe Jesus in Galatians 4:4 (that is, ὑπὸ νόμον?
Thats how this verse should read.
And this is just ridiculous: "but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm..."
Is there no way in Greek to say "legalism"? Is there no way for Paul to be clearer than to use the same word again and again ambiguously? I have to disagree. I think Greek was an extremely precise language, and if Paul meant "legalistic observance", he could very well have said that. Rather, he chose to use the generic term for "Torah" in Greek -- νόμος.
Should read?!? No way! That may be how you UNDERSTAND it or INTERPRET it, but that's not how it SHOULD READ. It should read as it was WRITTEN, and it wasn't WRITTEN like that!
You are relying upon a translation from the Latin Vulgate in your understanding when utilizing the KJV.
I don't use the KJV. I posted the Greek text of the verses along with my own word-for-word translation. I read and know Greek. Perhaps it's true that there are posters on this forum and others who quote the KJV and think it's wonderful. I quoted it above just to post an English translation, assuming that readers don't know Greek. If you'd prefer, we can do this completely with the Greek text and avoid posting any English translation at all. I can handle it with no problem, if that's what you prefer. I don't rely on the Latin. I don't read Latin. I don't care about the Vulgate. I deal with the original language as far as it can be placed.
The Greek text I use is the Nestle-Aland text in the 27th edition. In the States I also have a copy of the Textus Receptus with its textual apparatus along with the USB-4. Here in Israel I have only the NA27. I don't have an English translation of the NT, though I have one in Hebrew (a poor translation by a man named David Ginzburg), but I prefer to pull the Delitsch version off the Internet when quoting the NT in Hebrew (since it's a much stronger translation).
Again, if you'd rather me not use English translation at all (to avoid posting the KJV for those who read on this forum), I'd be glad to comment only on the Greek text. Let me know.
Its fine, I'm simply trying to let it be known that some translations are better than others.
I don't need David Stern's creative interpretations. Nor do I need the KJV. I can read the Greek myself and see exactly what Paul was describing. Do you, by chance, read Greek?