Discussion on the 28 fundamental beliefs....

Laodicean · Sep 14, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
Does a church have the authority to impose its will on another person on matters not described in the Bible? If so, how did it obtain that authority?

BFA

nobody, including a church or an organization, has the authority to impose its will on another. Whether the matters are described in the Bible or not, no one has any authority or right to impose their will on another.

Which means that nobody has obtained this authority, except through force and/or presumption.

Joe67 · Sep 14, 2010

Laodicean said:
Laodicean: If yes, then, according to this text, you are considered to be Abraham's seed and an heir to the promises

emphasis here is on "seed" and "heirs." "Promise" is only incidental to the point I was trying to make.

If you are considered to be the seed of Abraham, then you are also considered a Jew, in Christ. And if a Jew, then instructions given to the Jews are also given to you who have been adopted into Christ's family.

Laodicean,

Then the question comes to us as it came to the Galatians, did we become the seed of Abraham by the Lord's declaration or by the performance of duty?

While this is a very vital question, it is not the final question and answer, but it is the beginning question and answer.

Joe

Laodicean · Sep 15, 2010

Joe67 said:
Laodicean,

Then the question comes to us as it came to the Galatians, did we become the seed of Abraham by the Lord's declaration or by the performance of duty?

While this is a very vital question, it is not the final question and answer, but it is the beginning question and answer.

Joe

Joe, we become the seed of Abraham by surrendering ourselves to Christ and becoming His. We cannot be arbitrarily declared Abraham's seed without first coming into this relationship. So there is indeed a performance of duty required of us. But, at this point, does duty include the keeping of the law? NO. The duty is solely the free exercise of our will in choosing to accept Jesus into our lives.

I agree with you that this is not the final question and answer. For when Jesus comes to dwells in us through His Holy Spirit, He keeps the law in us because He has Himself kept the law.

Byfaithalone1 · Sep 15, 2010

Laodicean said:
nobody, including a church or an organization, has the authority to impose its will on another. Whether the matters are described in the Bible or not, no one has any authority or right to impose their will on another.

Which means that nobody has obtained this authority, except through force and/or presumption.

When a church provides societal pressure to influence an individual member's behavior, has that church imposed its will on the member? If so, under what circumstances does it have the authority to do so?

For example, if a church censured a member for eating pork, would we conclude that the church had imposed its will on the member?

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Sep 15, 2010

If you are considered to be the seed of Abraham, then you are also considered a Jew, in Christ.

I see no evidence of this. Not all of Abraham's descendents were Jews. Some of them are wild branches that must be grafted in among the natural branches (i.e. Jews).

And if a Jew, then instructions given to the Jews are also given to you who have been adopted into Christ's family.

Since the first conclusion is -- in my opinion -- flawed, I'm not following you as to why we would make this second conclusion. Your second conclusion seems to be built on the assumption that the old covenant is binding upon Jews.

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Sep 15, 2010

StormyOne said:
People give the church too much control over their lives...

I tend to agree. I've been guilty of that.

BFA

Avonia · Sep 15, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
When a church provides societal pressure to influence an individual member's behavior, has that church imposed its will on the member? If so, under what circumstances does it have the authority to do so?

For example, if a church censured a member for eating pork, would we conclude that the church had imposed its will on the member?

I'm trying to image being censurable . . .

Byfaithalone1 · Sep 15, 2010

Avonia said:
I'm trying to image being censurable . . .

Easy to say, but little consolation to the one who has surrendered way too much to a church and has then fallen into its disfavor. Sadly, some folks are born and raised in such an environment. It is their only reality.

I was never censured, but I've known others who were (but not for eating pork).

BFA

Avonia · Sep 15, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
Sadly, some folks are born and raised in such an environment. It is their only reality.

I would hope that forums like this could be valuable in expanding such a frame of reference.

Unless their church forbids "outside contact" -

Byfaithalone1 · Sep 16, 2010

Avonia said:
I would hope that forums like this could be valuable in expanding such a frame of reference.

I agree that such activities may be helpful.

Unless their church forbids "outside contact" -

That's a powerful "unless." Let's explore it a bit.

From your perspective, what is the standard (if there is such a thing) SDA position on:

Allowing a non-SDA to stand behind an SDA pulpit?

Using non-SDA study guides in sabbath school classes?

Referring to non-SDA religious books in SDA elementary schools?

Visiting websites where former SDAs post?

How likely is it that an SDA would visit a site like this?

BFA

Avonia · Sep 16, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
Allowing a non-SDA to stand behind an SDA pulpit?

I'm for it. And I've seen it in our church.

Byfaithalone1 said:
Using non-SDA study guides in sabbath school classes?

I didn't teach from the SS quarterly. I figured there were other teachers in our church in that role. But as you can imagine, we explored broadly in my class.

Byfaithalone1 said:
Referring to non-SDA religious books in SDA elementary schools?

I can tell you from a good amount of personal experience that this one is pretty tightly controlled. The "libraries" are often a joke.

Byfaithalone1 said:
How likely is it that an SDA would visit a site like this?

Likely. Just look at the Spectrum forum. And there are quite a few current members of the SDA church posting on this sub-forum.

I do have a bit different sense of "SDA community" than some. I consider Sophia, you and others a part of the fabric - because you all put a lot into it. And still contribute to it. It doesn't matter to me whether you are technically a part of the .org. You add value and hopefully receive value.

I'm staying for the moment because it's where I started and I'm trying to be useful and supportive. But I wouldn't fit much better or worse in most other denominations. My religious path is a very small strand in my spiritual path.

Byfaithalone1 · Sep 16, 2010

I can tell you from a good amount of personal experience that this one is pretty tightly controlled. The "libraries" are often a joke.

As a former SDA educator, my experience was similar. I found similar walls in the SDA churches as well. In my corner of the world, you would not find non-SDAs behind the pulpit or non-SDA materials used as the basis of a quarter of sabbath school study. That's just one guy's experience.

Ultimately, there does seem to be a legitimate basis for fearing outside influences. After all, many SDAs still believe that non-SDA christians will one day persecute them.

BFA

Avonia · Sep 16, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
Ultimately, there does seem to be a legitimate basis for fearing outside influences.

Dilution is a threat to the prevailing consensus.

Sophia7 · Sep 16, 2010

Avonia said:
I'm for it. And I've seen it in our church.

I was for it, too. Unfortunately, the churches where my hubby was a pastor were against it. He had opportunities to preach in other churches during our time there; it was too bad that he couldn't return the favor and invite other people to preach in ours.

Avonia said:
I didn't teach from the SS quarterly. I figured there were other teachers in our church in that role. But as you can imagine, we explored broadly in my class. . . .

I didn't teach from the SS quarterly either, but people in our churches were not as open to exploring broadly, so I usually tried to relate the topic somewhat to the topic of the quarterly. I used to teach directly from the Bible, though, rather than from a lesson guide. I figured that people couldn't complain too much about that.

Avonia said:
I do have a bit different sense of "SDA community" than some. I consider Sophia, you and others a part of the fabric - because you all put a lot into it. And still contribute to it. It doesn't matter to me whether you are technically a part of the .org. You add value and hopefully receive value. . . .

I do find value in some of the discussions here even though I'm not as active in posting as I used to be. Adventism isn't as relevant to my everyday life as it once was, but it's still a part of what has shaped me into who I am, so I appreciate still being considered a part of the community here.

Sophia7 · Sep 16, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
As a former SDA educator, my experience was similar. I found similar walls in the SDA churches as well. In my corner of the world, you would not find non-SDAs behind the pulpit or non-SDA materials used as the basis of a quarter of sabbath school study. That's just one guy's experience. . . .

I have observed that some Adventist elementary schools don't even allow fiction in their libraries. On the other hand, I majored in English at an Adventist college, and one of my professors mentioned that sometimes parents would call him and ask why Adventist colleges offered courses in which fictional literature was taught. That was the first time that I had thought about the issue. At the time, I dismissed EGW's statements on fiction as having been taken out of context (the usual rationalization for ignoring her ), but when I read them more carefully later, I discovered that those Adventists who disapproved of fiction were more consistent with her writings than I had been taught to be. I struggled for many years with the question of how I should regard her writings, how much authority I should give them over me, until I finally came to the point where I could no longer accept them as "a continuing and authoritative source of truth." Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I finally realized that my previous view of her writings was not really acceptance of the fundamental belief.

Strangely, although most of the members in our churches were very traditional in most respects and reluctant to use anything other than the lesson quarterly in Sabbath School, one of our most conservative churches used The Purpose Driven Life as the guide for a weekly study group.

It's kind of a relief that I no longer have to try to make sense of the inconsistencies between the official beliefs and the varying practices of Adventism.

AzA · Sep 16, 2010

Sophia7 said:
I majored in English at an Adventist college...

Sidebar -- so did I.
I remember taking the class Concepts of Christian Education, a general requirement based on reading through Ellen White's book, Education.

One of the exercises was to go through EGW's writings and identify I think 10 or 20 quotations relevant to your major.
For obvious reasons, the computer science folk had a rough time and had to be uber-inventive.

I don't recall if I picked out the "literature is bad and leads to scoffing and philosphy"-type comments; don't think so -- but those comments were one reason I didn't especially enjoy reading the copy of MYP I was given at about 13yo as a gift from my Pathfinder's club.

AzA · Sep 16, 2010

Byfaithalone1 said:
From your perspective, what is the standard (if there is such a thing) SDA position on

Allowing a non-SDA to stand behind an SDA pulpit?

Using non-SDA study guides in sabbath school classes?

Referring to non-SDA religious books in SDA elementary schools?

I don't think there's a standard at all. Variance will be congregational.

I have seen each of the things you've described and in churches, unions, and regions that are otherwise theologically traditional.

As for websites -- well, here we are, lol.
But if you consider that most Adventists may be similar to most Episcopalians, being more attached to the life of their local congregations than to national or international internecine political conflicts, it makes sense that there isn't more engagement overall.

Sophia7 · Sep 17, 2010

AzA said:
One of the exercises was to go through EGW's writings and identify I think 10 or 20 quotations relevant to your major.
For obvious reasons, the computer science folk had a rough time and had to be uber-inventive.

That's funny.

Joe67 · Sep 17, 2010

AzA said:
I don't think there's a standard at all. Variance will be congregational.

I have seen each of the things you've described and in churches, unions, and regions that are otherwise theologically traditional.

As for websites -- well, here we are, lol.
But if you consider that most Adventists may be similar to most Episcopalians, being more attached to the life of their local congregations than to national or international internecine political conflicts, it makes sense that there isn't more engagement overall.

AzA,

AzA said:
...But if you consider that most Adventists may be similar to most Episcopalians....

It is vital to understand our spiritual genetics. The genetics are continually generating until they destroy each other, first by outward violence and then at the end through commerce and its lack of permanent satisfaction.

We are now in the end stage, just as Judas was at the last supper, and he imagined he was fulfilling the commission of Christ to do expeditiously what was in his heart.

Christ, through his Body, is being sold again, thus we crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to open shame through our commercial worship and service.

Mic 2:1-3
2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand.

2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.

3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil. KJV

Joe

StormyOne · Sep 17, 2010

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