Discussion on Hell: my biggest stumbling block

[truthseeker32]

I posted this over in OBOB, but I wanted to get an Orthodox perspective on these questions as well.

I would not call myself a universalist, but I do believe I am much more open to the idea that everyone, or at least most people, will be saved. However, I want to get the other side's perspective on this issue so I thought I would bring it here for discussion. I will start it off with some questions for those who would like to participate.

1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

2. Why must Hell be permanent?

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

Feel free to answer any of the above. I look forward to reading your answers.

 

[Dorothea]

I posted this over in OBOB, but I wanted to get an Orthodox perspective on these questions as well.

I would not call myself a universalist, but I do believe I am much more open to the idea that everyone, or at least most people, will be saved. However, I want to get the other side's perspective on this issue so I thought I would bring it here for discussion. I will start it off with some questions for those who would like to participate.

1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

Reject Christ and His Love.

2. Why must Hell be permanent?

Because we are permanently in the presence of God when we leave this earth. He's all in all.

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

Not sure the answer to this one.

4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

No. Is there some pleasure in our sins while on earth, yes, but I don't think it's the same when we leave this earth. JMO.

5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

It's God's Love that is agonizing to those who reject Him. Their hate for Him simply causes their torture.


These are my views and understandings.

 

[truthseeker32]

Reject Christ and His Love.

Thank you for your answers, Dorothea Would you say one has to knowingly reject Christ?

 

[Dewi Sant]

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

All that is created by God is of God.
All is created out of love and for love.

We are made for love, and as such, we may become distracted from the expression of love in thanksgiving, that does not mean we may be destroyed because God wishes not the destruction of any person.

I think I know where you are coming from because I used to believe evil to to be the lack of good and thus hell being the lack of being.
I do not believe however that we are called into no-being. We know from the demons who exist in a state aside from love, that they are not destroyed but rather, stir themselves in a frenzy of activity against that love. None-the-less, God loves the demons, and we should pray for them.


I was listening to an AFR podcast and heard a nice C.S. Lewis quote which I attempt to paraphrase:
"The blades of grass in the heavenly pastures are to those who wish not to be there, sharpened daggers."

 

[Gnarwhal]

I am curious about what the Orthodox think of C.S. Lewis' statement "The gates of hell are locked from the inside".

Considering, from what I understand, that the Orthodox understanding of hell is that both the righteous and the unrighteous are in the presence of God (which makes perfect sense to me) but being in the presence of God while willingly choosing to reject him... if someone were to relent, give in and accept God's love, would the torment cease and God's presence become bliss like what the righteous experience?

 

[Dorothea]

Thank you for your answers, Dorothea Would you say one has to knowingly reject Christ?

You're welcome. It is my belief that you would need to know Him to reject Him.

 

[MKJ]

You're welcome. It is my belief that you would need to know Him to reject Him.

I guess the question is, what if they don't know Christ explicitly, but they do reject the good or truth they do know? I tend to think that is very close, at least, to rejecting Christ.

 

[Dorothea]

I guess the question is, what if they don't know Christ explicitly, but they do reject the good or truth they do know? I tend to think that is very close, at least, to rejecting Christ.

Haven't thought about that really. I just don't think someone who is told about Christ and reads about Him equals knowing Him.

 

[Ann_of_Love]

Remember that God loves us. He IS love. Do not be afraid of Hell - be confident in the grace of our Lord! Know that He loves those around us - our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, best friends, etc. far more than we ever could, and that He strives for their souls in a way we will never be able to. Know that, and be confident in God's love.

I know I am Anglican, and not Orthodox, but I say this to you because I once feared the concept of Hell so much, that I abandoned Christianity. A kind priest sat with me, and we talked of God's love. We do not know who will be in heaven, and who will be in Hell. Personally, I prefer to focus on God's grace, love and abundant mercy. I hope this helps, if even just a little.

 

[Wesley1982]

I posted this over in OBOB, but I wanted to get an Orthodox perspective on these questions as well.

I would not call myself a universalist, but I do believe I am much more open to the idea that everyone, or at least most people, will be saved. However, I want to get the other side's perspective on this issue so I thought I would bring it here for discussion. I will start it off with some questions for those who would like to participate.

1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

2. Why must Hell be permanent?

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

Feel free to answer any of the above. I look forward to reading your answers.

I would generally echo what it says in the Bible and Scriptures + Church tradition.

 

[MariaRegina]

The road to hell is wide and easy.

We must be careful. While many folks want to eat, drink, and be merry in this life, Orthodox Christianity teaches that we must be sober and watchful if we want to win the race and receive the heavenly crown.

When I was a Catholic student in junior high, I remember guys asking how long they could kiss a girl before they would be damned to hell. Or another famous question they would ask: how much money could they steal before they had to confess it? In other words, these juveniles tried to press the envelope and see how much they could sin and still be welcomed through those pearly gates. With that kind of attitude, they might actually find Hell to be more to their liking.

 

[MKJ]

Haven't thought about that really. I just don't think someone who is told about Christ and reads about Him equals knowing Him.

I was thinking more the people that Paul talks about who are condemned by the law written in their own hearts, even when they have never heard of the Law or of Christ.

 

[Dorothea]

I was thinking more the people that Paul talks about who are condemned by the law written in their own hearts, even when they have never heard of the Law or of Christ.

Ok. Sure. What about people who do Christ-like things and live this way, but do not know or have not heard of Christ?

 

[Atha]

One thing i recently found through faith is that hell will be forgotten... the very power of hell isnt all about fire and suffering, its about the power that will stop the wrong from happening to the right... its not the opposite of Heavin, its not anything possible for those that are good, its not something documented or understood, its just there to protect the innocent from the bad that others would do.....

Jesus himself said it may take forever for those that are in hell to be right again but then after forever they will be good and are welcome in heavin..

i dont know why a person does wrong to another, but some do, and they will be stopped by the power of hell, this is only for in eternity...

so wonderin just think but be afraid of what is said, about hell, but know this that hell is not unjustified, it isnt a problem its a solution...

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Please show me the Gospel, passage number, etc. for this

Jesus himself said it may take forever for those that are in hell to be right again but then after forever they will be good and are welcome in heavin..

 

[ArmyMatt]

1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

sin

2. Why must Hell be permanent?

because, if there are those who eternally reject God, there must be a condition for that state.

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

because He is Life and Creator by nature and action. Love does not annihilate, it creates, patiently endures, and waits.

4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

pleasure? in a sense, yes, because they are getting what they want. joy? no, joy only comes from being in communion with God.

5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

because the very goodness of God is what they don't want. it exposes their lack of goodness. the suffering they feel is self imposed.

Would you say one has to knowingly reject Christ?

yes. hell won't be full of the ignorant, it will be full of those who knowingly chose that road.

 

[rusmeister]

I am curious about what the Orthodox think of C.S. Lewis' statement "The gates of hell are locked from the inside".

We would generally agree.
The two books by Lewis that helped me the most were "The Great Divorce" and "The Problem of Pain" (esp. the chapter on hell). Everything I have ever encountered in Orthodoxy agrees with and supports how Lewis lays it out; iow, Lewis's views were Orthodox.

I got from TGD how a person can make himself INCAPABLE of relenting/repenting through his own choices, making hell effectively eternal through his own incapacity. From TPOP I got the general logic of hell.

Everything I read by Orthodox writers only confirms all that - "The River of Fire", etc.

 

[MKJ]

Ok. Sure. What about people who do Christ-like things and live this way, but do not know or have not heard of Christ?

I think that the same thing applies, backwards. If they know truth through the natural capacities that God has given them, then they do know God, even if they do not really know his name.

I assume that is why God gave them those capacities, so they could come to know him through them and his self-revelation in creation.

 

[Dorothea]

I think that the same thing applies, backwards. If they know truth through the natural capacities that God has given them, then they do know God, even if they do not really know his name.

I assume that is why God gave them those capacities, so they could come to know him through them and his self-revelation in creation.

Ok. I think we're on the same page and agree.

 

[Cappadocious]

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

Those who would turn and ask God for annihilation would be displaying some sort of repentance and acknowledgement that they need God for something.

I believe it is the teaching that those who will experience Gehenna would not do such a thing.