Discussion of Submission- Trial Thread

[razzelflabben]

Putting another above self in an act of humility, creating a covenant whose intent/purpose if reconciliation/restoration is the best definition I can find for Love.

That being said, the word used for submit and the word used for Love are not the same word, nor are they synonyms. Thus, submission must mean something other than to put your husband above yourself...just saying.

 

[ValleyGal]

It means to "voluntarily place yourself under" according to my Greek Theological Dictionary. Eph. 5:21 says "Submit to one another...." and then verse 22 borrows this concept, saying what it looks like. Then the passage extends to husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church. How did Christ love the church? By voluntarily placing himself under her, giving himself up for her sake.

Love includes submission. It is not synonymous. In an earlier post, I alluded to the fact that they were "almost" synonymous in my marriage. Love embraces submission, but takes the relationship a whole step further.

 

[mkgal1]

How does an independent Christian Church think about members who are feminists who think it should be legal to murder babies in the womb? The one's I've encountered tend to be rather conservative. Some of the DOC folks are conservative, but some seem extremely liberal.

That's off topic (and actually not a topic that can even have it's own thread).....so...back to submission.

 

[mkgal1]

Love includes submission. It is not synonymous.

 

[razzelflabben]

It means to "voluntarily place yourself under" according to my Greek Theological Dictionary. Eph. 5:21 says "Submit to one another...." and then verse 22 borrows this concept, saying what it looks like. Then the passage extends to husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church. How did Christ love the church? By voluntarily placing himself under her, giving himself up for her sake.

Love includes submission. It is not synonymous. In an earlier post, I alluded to the fact that they were "almost" synonymous in my marriage. Love embraces submission, but takes the relationship a whole step further.

when did Christ place Himself under the Church? Hasn't He always been her Savior not her underling? You lost me, seriously, I'm not trying to be difficult you really did lose me. The voluntary thing I get and agree with, it's the rest of this that loses me. In fact, to put someone above yourself does not equal you being below anyone, in fact, according to scripture, the least are the first and the servant is the leader.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ephesians 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.


As the Church submits to Christ not as Christ submits to the Church...I'm so confused by how some here think Christ loved the church.

 

[ValleyGal]

when did Christ place Himself under the Church? Hasn't He always been her Savior not her underling? You lost me, seriously, I'm not trying to be difficult you really did lose me. The voluntary thing I get and agree with, it's the rest of this that loses me. In fact, to put someone above yourself does not equal you being below anyone, in fact, according to scripture, the least are the first and the servant is the leader.

When he took the towel of a servant, wrapped it around himself, and knelt to wash his disciples' feet.

Philippians 2:
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant...

That is how Christ loves the church, by serving her....that is, placing her value far above his own. This fits quite nicely with the concept of the last being first, as the passage goes on to say "Therefore, God exalted him
to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name," (v. 9).

He placed himself under us so that now he is above us, and we reciprocate by placing him above ourselves. That is the nature of the covenantal relationship between Christ and the church and is therefore the nature of the marriage relationship. He initiated by doing this first. First John 4:19 says that "We love because he loved us first." If a husband initiates this relationship, this love, this tone for his home, in the humble service of Christ, then he is making himself nothing, and she can then reciprocate as the church does, by lifting him up and placing herself under him.

 

[razzelflabben]

When he took the towel of a servant, wrapped it around himself, and knelt to wash his disciples' feet.

Philippians 2:
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant...

He humbled Himself, that is not the question. the question was when did He put Himself under her, as in an underling. Being a servant does not mean being under someone, it means you serve them. I can serve and still be an equal. In fact, Christ served, while retaining His Lordship. Thus I ask again, when did Christ put Himself under the church?

That is how Christ loves the church, by serving her....that is, placing her value far above his own. This fits quite nicely with the concept of the last being first, as the passage goes on to say "Therefore, God exalted him
to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name," (v. 9).

He did Love the church by serving among other things, but we aren't talking about a servant, anyone can serve, that doesn't mean they are under me. I serve my children, that doesn't mean I am under them or their authority over me. Your claim was that Christ put Himself under the church, you only show a servant leader, not an underling. So when did Christ put Himself under the church? In fact, Ephesians 5 tells us that His love is that of how He loves Himself. How could He put Himself under Himself? It just doesn't make any sense what you say...at least in my head, thus I ask you to clarify. When did Christ put Himself under the church?

He placed himself under us so that now he is above us, and we reciprocate by placing him above ourselves. That is the nature of the covenantal relationship between Christ and the church and is therefore the nature of the marriage relationship. He initiated by doing this first. First John 4:19 says that "We love because he loved us first." If a husband initiates this relationship, this love, this tone for his home, in the humble service of Christ, then he is making himself nothing, and she can then reciprocate as the church does, by lifting him up and placing herself under him.

I have no issue with understanding or agreeing with servant leadership, but as already shown, that is not the same thing as putting myself under someone else. Your claim that I don't understand is when Christ put Himself under the church.

Seems to me that previously you misspoke, but without clarification, I can't be sure. It's just like going to a restaurant, the waiter/waitress serves me, but that does NOT mean they place themselves under me. In fact, most still see themselves as over me because they have never learned the humility of a Christ who came to serve.

 

[ValleyGal]

well, there is the problem. You associate submission with authority. I contend that they are not even related. Imo, submission is simply submission and has nothing to do with giving anyone authority over me. It has to do with me having the authority over my own self to put others above myself.

 

[razzelflabben]

well, there is the problem. You associate submission with authority. I contend that they are not even related. Imo, submission is simply submission and has nothing to do with giving anyone authority over me. It has to do with me having the authority over my own self to put others above myself.

now I am more confused then ever...you accuse me of thinking submission is authority even though I said and showed why I don't, and all that, simply because I asked you when Christ put Himself under the church as per your claim.

Look your claim equated submission and authority, if you misspoke, it's as simple as saying, that isn't what I meant, I meant X, rather than try to accuse me of things that are contrary to what I already said.

This is why you and I have had problems in the past...

 

[mkgal1]

now I am more confused then ever...you accuse me of thinking submission is authority even though I said and showed why I don't, and all that, simply because I asked you when Christ put Himself under the church as per your claim.

Look your claim equated submission and authority, if you misspoke, it's as simple as saying, that isn't what I meant, I meant X, rather than try to accuse me of things that are contrary to what I already said.

I don't see VG accusing you of thinking submission *is* authority---what she'd posted is that you associate submission with authority. She is (most likely) getting that from when you'd posted this:

I serve my children, that doesn't mean I am under them or their authority over me. Your claim was that Christ put Himself under the church, you only show a servant leader, not an underling.

But you also posted this (which I agree with---and VG probably does as well). It's actually a great point (I think):

I can serve and still be an equal. In fact, Christ served, while retaining His Lordship

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't see VG accusing you of thinking submission *is* authority---what she'd posted is that you associate submission with authority. She is (most likely) getting that from when you'd posted this:

be careful, that was in response to her claiming that Christ put Himself under the Church and not about what I said at all about what I believe. IOW's even by your own admission, she twisted what I said to make a false claim about what I said submission was. So again, shows why you and I haven't gotten along well in the past as well.

But you also posted this (which I agree with---and VG probably does as well). It's actually a great point (I think):

I asked VG to clarify herself, maybe she should do that. Maybe she should explain how her comment that connects submission to authority isn't what she meant and then tell us what she really did mean rather than trying to defend her false claims about what I said I think submission means. Just a thought, wise counsel for not turning things into a flaming war is all.

 

[mkgal1]

be careful, that was in response to her claiming that Christ put Himself under the Church and not about what I said at all about what I believe. IOW's even by your own admission, she twisted what I said to make a false claim about what I said submission was. So again, shows why you and I haven't gotten along well in the past as well.

My post was to show how things could have been misunderstood (and not deliberately or maliciously twisted). I didn't admit that VG twisted anything. I read her post to only be about her own explanation of what she believes. I'll leave you two to it.

I asked VG to clarify herself, maybe she should do that. Maybe she should explain how her comment that connects submission to authority isn't what she meant and then tell us what she really did mean rather than trying to defend her false claims about what I said I think submission means. Just a thought, wise counsel for not turning things into a flaming war is all.

I'll wait for her to clarify (but the first time that "authority" was used wasn't by VG).

Deep breaths.......

 

[ValleyGal]

now I am more confused then ever...you accuse me of thinking submission is authority even though I said and showed why I don't, and all that, simply because I asked you when Christ put Himself under the church as per your claim.

Look your claim equated submission and authority, if you misspoke, it's as simple as saying, that isn't what I meant, I meant X, rather than try to accuse me of things that are contrary to what I already said.

This is why you and I have had problems in the past...

I am not going to address any of this post except what you said in the bolded part, and to be honest, I did and will not even read it. This is exactly what happens every time I engage in dialogue with you. I did not accuse you of "thinking submission is authority." That is your own twist of my words "associate" submission "with" authority. Your twisting of my words is a trigger that lets me know that it is time to disengage from conversation with you because from here, it will only break down into a "she said" which turns out to be highly inaccurate.

Thank you, but I will now take my leave yet again.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Personally, I think that verse has to do with faith---not abusive behavior. IOW.....don't debate the existence of God with unbelieving husbands---just demonstrate pure and chaste behavior.

So.....are you saying that in your synod, if a woman came alone to a counselor and said that her husband is harsh and unfair to her and her children (domineering---not loving)---there's a protocol set in place for restoring that? If so.....I think that's great.

Yes, although it will tend to vary from church to church. And pastors in that type of situation will rarely meet with the wife alone after the first meeting.

my husband is the first one who pointed out to me that husbands have the much harder job. In fact, if husbands grasped how hart their job is and how badly they fail, I wonder how few would have anything to say about their wife's submission. Kind of like the splinter in the eye verses the log...just a thought for what it's worth, it's also why the study of Isaiah 53 and Prove 31 are so powerful together.

This is something my husband brings up in the marriage classes as well.

But a failing on one's part doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't supposed to continue to steer their partner in the right direction, either. If the husband continues to fail at his role but is constantly harping on her, that's a problem.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Because my wife and I do not have much trouble with the Ephesians verse and other verses pertaining to husband/wife love/submission relations, I have not done much studding on the subject. However, I do like to learn and it seems that the discussion on this thread has added some insight for me.

I am just going to list the latest information posted that I think helps clarify this topic for me. Here they are below:



By MkGal

I'm of the belief that whether a couple identifies as egalitarian or complementarian (a hierarchy in marriage--with the husband as the "leader") decisions *should* be made with both parties in mind.....

David recognizes and praises Abigail as a woman of sense and discretion. The ultimate, decisive difference between David and Nabal is that the one will listen to Abigail’s exhortation and the other will not. The wise man gladly receives instruction and reproof; the fool does not.


But God said to Abraham, "Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.~Genesis 21:12




By Preacher’s wife

I'm a Christian. My doctrines come from the bible. When secular principles contradict the bible I go with what the bible says.

Submission in marriage is NEVER supposed to be the husband simply saying "I'm the man, you're the wife, suck it up".

I was commenting that many people BELIEVE that a submission marriage means that the wife is basically a doormat.


Ephesians is just a really good breakdown of what a successful marriage SHOULD look like.


The bible actually does speak for God. It's God's word.




BY Razzel
One of if not the best known is the Thayer Lexicon which says this about the word submission in texts like Ephesians 5 This word was a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".

IOW's, there is a very limited amount of interpretation (large scale) we can do and still be true to the text. Marriage is not a military issue, thus only one interpretation of the word applies as per translation, that of a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden...this is an idea that is further supported throughout scripture one of the most famous of places Prov. 31, the wife of noble character. That wife does all those things, in fact, the wife in Prov. 31 does NOT have to defer any of her decisions over to her husband, instead, she buys a field, she sells her wears, and her husband has full confidence in her.

BTW, laying Prov. 31 beside Isaiah 53 is incredibly challenging as Isaiah 53 tells a husband how Christ loved the Church, aka how he is to love the wife....amazing study, I recommend it to everyone.




By VALLEYGAL
if a woman learns she can't trust him to make choices that are in the family's best interest, then she will have an impossible time submitting to him.

Godly submission (Greek Theological Dictionary) describes it as internally motivated, something to be given, not taken and never forced

Essentially, Paul is saying "choose to put each other ahead of yourself" to both women and men. The message is the same.
It means to "voluntarily place yourself under" according to my Greek Theological Dictionary. Eph. 5:21 says "Submit to one another...." and then verse 22 borrows this concept, saying what it looks like. Then the passage extends to husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church. How did Christ love the church? By voluntarily placing himself under her, giving himself up for her sake.

Love includes submission. It is not synonymous. In an earlier post, I alluded to the fact that they were "almost" synonymous in my marriage. Love embraces submission, but takes the relationship a whole step further.
When he took the towel of a servant, wrapped it around himself, and knelt to wash his disciples' feet.

Philippians 2:
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant...

That is how Christ loves the church, by serving her....




I am also posting Isaiah 53 below because Razzle mentioned this chapter as on that tells how a husband is to love his wife. I am not sure of the exact verses that tell the husband how to love his wife but am guessing it is the ones that have bolded below.

Isaiah 53 New International Version (NIV)

53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.



Speaking only for myself, I would say that what Christ did is the ultimate in love. It is a great goal for me as a husband to strive for but I do not believe that I will ever be able to match Christ. However, every time I achieve a little bit of Christ’s love for my wife I know that I have pleased God. That is a great motivator and I know that I have a degree of Christ’s love for my wife because I have achieved a little bit of what I think that Isiah 53 is saying.


Thank you to Preacher’s Wife, MKGal, Razzelflabben. ValleyGal, and the rest that have contributed to helping me see the love and submission verses in the Bible in a more clear and Christian spirit way!

 

[ImaginaryDay]

My ICC has no problem with feminists who smoke, drink, cuss, get divorced and don't have kids.

This is part of a problem, though. If the behavior above is what identifies that particular ICC as members of the Body of Christ, where is the submission to a Christ-like life? And since that's the foundation of submission in the context of marriage, isn't that a little skewed to those who would emulate Christ in their marriage?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

This is part of a problem, though. If the behavior above is what identifies that particular ICC as members of the Body of Christ, where is the submission to a Christ-like life? And since that's the foundation of submission in the context of marriage, isn't that a little skewed to those who would emulate Christ in their marriage?

We don't quibble about non-essentials. If it's not in the bible it's a personal choice. I cuss, drink, smoke, am a feminist. My pastor knows, my ladies' group knows...they don't care.

 

[LinkH]

"murder babies in the womb"....boy you sure have your pro-life rhetoric down pat.

Jewish interpretation - a person is not ALIVE until they take their first breath. That's biblical, that's the way it is.

That's not Biblical. When John the Baptist was still in the womb, the Bible calls him a 'baby', and he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

And so-called 'prochoice' is not 'the Jewish' interpretation. That's not how the translators of the Septuagint interpreted the Old Testament.

Btw, why should I use terminology that white washes murder?

My ICC has no problem with feminists who smoke, drink, cuss, get divorced and don't have kids.

Is that what your church teaches you to aspire to? Some of the independent Christian church folks I've interacted with kind of make me seem a bit left wing by comparison.

Do you aspire to live a holy life pleasing to God? A life where no corrupt communication comes out of your mouth and all those other good things?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

That's not Biblical. When John the Baptist was still in the womb, the Bible calls him a 'baby', and he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

And so-called 'prochoice' is not 'the Jewish' interpretation. That's not how the translators of the Septuagint interpreted the Old Testament.

Btw, why should I use terminology that white washes murder?



Is that what your church teaches you to aspire to? Some of the independent Christian church folks I've interacted with kind of make me seem a bit left wing by comparison.

Do you aspire to live a holy life pleasing to God? A life where no corrupt communication comes out of your mouth and all those other good things?

corrupt communication would be things like gossiping and lying. I do neither. I can make a sailor blush but I do not engage in "corrupt communication".

Regarding Jewish tradition/experience...I'd rather take an honest to God Orthodox Jew's take on the situation than yours.

Have a nice day and bless your little heart.